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> it's a Polish game from a studio with no American office and apparently with little regard for the current trend in American culture (cue The Guardian review)

> it's a Polish game from a studio with no American office and apparently with little regard for the current trend in American culture (cue The Guardian review) The Guardian righty criticized Cyberpunk for misogyny and xenophobia. The idea that these concerns are just some quirk of Anglo-American culture which is alien to Poles is an idiotic, offensive, condescending assertion which manages to be equally wrong about both America and Poland.

effry-much 6y ago
No it isn't. Those concepts are a fetish of a very small (yet influential) group of people residing exclusively in the West. 90% of the world doesn't care. And as a Polish person myself, I can assure you this is not a condescending and not wrong about Poland at all. And just because you are offended it doesn't make you right.
- HelloMcFly 6y ago
  You have no women in your society concerned with misogyny? I know for a fact that isn't true as I work closely with several Polish women (residing in Poland). Perhaps they are not representative of others, but I doubt very much Poland is free from misogyny and that women don't care either way. The idea that 90% of the world doesn't care about something that affects 50% of the population is a reach. And the idea that nobody cares about xenophobia also seems unlikely. It's a less diverse country, sure, but the debate around migrants in Poland have been public and at times quite emotive. Maybe it's all smoke no fire, but it when Jaroslaw Kaczynski helped the PiS rise to power while denigrating migrants throughout, you can't help but be doubtful that xenophobia isn't meaningful to some of those smaller pockets of non-native Poles in your country. EDIT: I do not know if these concerns are merited within the context of the game itself. I have not played Cyberpunk 2077. I only take issue with your belief that misogyny and xenophobia are of no concern to people in central or eastern Europe. It sounds like an opinion of someone without such cares personally, not someone who can attest that such cares are unwarranted.
  - effry-much 6y ago
    I don't believe in your good intentions regarding this conversation. Why? Well because you constructed this straw man argument that I meant literally no one in Poland cares about the Western SJW values. It is obvious that you will find people like that - usually among 'grievance studies' graduates, or heavy social-media users that tend to become infected with the 'woke culture'. Regarding misogyny, sure we have it here. Same with misandry, but somehow only the first issue is important according to the church of SJW. Xenophobia is not an issue when you realise that Poland in the last years issued more residence permits to non-EU immigrants than any other country in the EU. From what I see, you do what usually woke people do - they take some issue, fetishise it, misrepresent by a factor of 10 or 100, then claim whoever doesn't agree with their view is a fascist. And in the meantime people in Poland live everyday lives, not caring about all that stuff. Half a century of soviet propaganda made us more immune to the progressive socialist propaganda than most societies, I suppose.
    - HelloMcFly 6y ago
      I cannot reference your exact comment because it is now flagged, but I believe you said people in Poland don't care about that these issues are only concerns to a very small but influential niche of Westerners. I do not believe I misrepresented what you wrote, though I may have misrepresented what you meant. But then I read the rest of your comment and I feel comfortable that I didn't misread anything at all. In fact you make that clear at the end: > And in the meantime people in Poland live everyday lives, not caring about all that stuff. I know Polish people that do not think like you. I don't take them to represent the entirety of your country, nor do I take your word either. I'm not really going to debate the topics, nor do I care to defend myself against the imagined caricature you've conjured of me. I just think your claims to represent the reality in Poland do not square with the reality I know others live or behavior that is plainly evident from your major political party in power. Of course that party doesn't represent everyone anymore than Trump represents most Americans, but it evidences something real and tangible.
      - aaron695 6y ago
- ojnabieoot 6y ago
  You are just full of shit. Kaczynski wouldn’t have described LGBT rights as a “threat to Poland” if it weren’t for all the brave Polish activists who do in fact care about these things. 30% of Poles support same-sex marriage. The idea that the governing party of Poland speaks for all Poles is just fascist bullshit.
  - effry-much 6y ago
    So how does the LGBT rights relates to the topic we discussed, that is : misogyny and xenophobia? I think this lack of ability to actually communicate with other people is typical for SJШs. This way they create a mental safe space where they isolate themselves from reality.
    - leetcrew 6y ago
      it seems like a reasonable proxy to me. most people who care about LGBT rights also care about misogyny and xenophobia, or at least claim to. this is what they call "intersectionalism".
  - leetcrew 6y ago
    if only 30% of poles support same-sex marriage, doesn't that support the position that poland is not as concerned with LGBT issues as the west? in america, which is hardly seen as a bastion of social justice, that number is more like 60%.
  - batushka3 6y ago
    LGBT is an ideology, not "a rights package", so it's perfectly normal no reject it. All shamed eastern EU countries have working anti discrimination laws years in place. Even gay people hate LGBT, look at Jozsef Szajer example.
krageon 6y ago
Honestly, the criticisms about misogyny and xenophobia that I've read (and I've read a lot of them) are extremely low-effort and bland. The story of the game and it's environment is strikingly negative about what is happening and doesn't for even one moment dip into approval. Of course, this is easy to miss if you just spend 30m looking around and all you see is a corporate hellscape.
zpeti 6y ago
As someone in a central european country, I can confirm, you are wrong, and we don't care what LMBFQQUBDSBDSAH letter is the fashion today. You have every right to be offended by that, I don't really care.
- bambataa 6y ago
  Do the LMBFQQUBDSBDSAH people in your country care?
  - golergka 6y ago
    We care for the real struggle with LBTGQ rights like being murdered. But most of us are annoyed and upset by the woke theater of getting offended that most of the american activists are busy with.
throwaway743 6y ago
Both The Guardian reviewer and yourself, must've not played the game through. The Guardian mentions misogyny in context to female sex workers (in the game "dolls"), but the reality is that there's an equal amount of male "dolls" within the main storyline (at Clouds) and throughout the game. And if there is any misogyny displayed within the game, it's from scumbag characters. Emphasizing that the attitude/perspective is rooted in scumbag thinking.
PestoDiRucola 6y ago
Well Eastern-European countries are notoriously xenophobic and misogynistic. Poland recently outlawed abortion for instance.
- mensetmanusman 6y ago
  Broad strokes are not useful for real discussion (e.g. replace ‘eastern-European’ with ‘blacks’ or ‘Jews’ and you will see how it reads to your audience.)
- ojnabieoot 6y ago
  It’s true that Central and Eastern European governments have lagged behind North America and Western Europe when it comes to sexual freedom and LGBT rights, and that reactionary views are more widespread in those societies. The problem is that the Republicans in America is exactly as misogynistic and anti-abortion as Law and Justice in Poland. It is quite likely that Roe v Wade will be turned over in America in 2021. These things are not static and can change dramatically in a decade. Trying to make this about national attitudes is a mistake that only leads to confusion and misunderstanding. And with Poland and Hungary especially, the government has become strongly anti-LGBT in response to increased public support for LGBT rights, as part of a general authoritarian far-right ideology. This complicated political development with a homogenous expression of Hungarian/Polish society. And in the case of CD Projekt Red in particular: for starters, you can’t claim “golly, those humble Poles just have different views than you American folk” when your game is set in America, is clearly about American culture, was heavily marketed towards Americans, and prominently features major American actors. And CD Projekt Red has repeatedly apologized for their transphobic GOG ad campaign. They are not hicks who are unaware of some Ivory Tower concern by elite American liberals. They are in fact fully aware of what they are doing and they made a moral choice.
  - effry-much 6y ago
    I think you are just full of shit. Whether you like it or not, the 'woke culture' will end sooner than later, and we will have a full pendulum swing back to the good old game.
- 6y ago
coward8675309 6y ago
I read the comment you just flipped out over as suggesting that the developers weren't tuned into to the current performative hypersensitivity and outrage that is fashionable among members of the American Left and those who pander for their clicks — not that Poles as a people are somehow more misogynistic or xenophobic than Americans.

effry-much 6y ago

No it isn't. Those concepts are a fetish of a very small (yet influential) group of people residing exclusively in the West. 90% of the world doesn't care. And as a Polish person myself, I can assure you this is not a condescending and not wrong about Poland at all. And just because you are offended it doesn't make you right.

HelloMcFly 6y ago
You have no women in your society concerned with misogyny? I know for a fact that isn't true as I work closely with several Polish women (residing in Poland). Perhaps they are not representative of others, but I doubt very much Poland is free from misogyny and that women don't care either way. The idea that 90% of the world doesn't care about something that affects 50% of the population is a reach. And the idea that nobody cares about xenophobia also seems unlikely. It's a less diverse country, sure, but the debate around migrants in Poland have been public and at times quite emotive. Maybe it's all smoke no fire, but it when Jaroslaw Kaczynski helped the PiS rise to power while denigrating migrants throughout, you can't help but be doubtful that xenophobia isn't meaningful to some of those smaller pockets of non-native Poles in your country. EDIT: I do not know if these concerns are merited within the context of the game itself. I have not played Cyberpunk 2077. I only take issue with your belief that misogyny and xenophobia are of no concern to people in central or eastern Europe. It sounds like an opinion of someone without such cares personally, not someone who can attest that such cares are unwarranted.
- effry-much 6y ago
  I don't believe in your good intentions regarding this conversation. Why? Well because you constructed this straw man argument that I meant literally no one in Poland cares about the Western SJW values. It is obvious that you will find people like that - usually among 'grievance studies' graduates, or heavy social-media users that tend to become infected with the 'woke culture'. Regarding misogyny, sure we have it here. Same with misandry, but somehow only the first issue is important according to the church of SJW. Xenophobia is not an issue when you realise that Poland in the last years issued more residence permits to non-EU immigrants than any other country in the EU. From what I see, you do what usually woke people do - they take some issue, fetishise it, misrepresent by a factor of 10 or 100, then claim whoever doesn't agree with their view is a fascist. And in the meantime people in Poland live everyday lives, not caring about all that stuff. Half a century of soviet propaganda made us more immune to the progressive socialist propaganda than most societies, I suppose.
  - HelloMcFly 6y ago
    I cannot reference your exact comment because it is now flagged, but I believe you said people in Poland don't care about that these issues are only concerns to a very small but influential niche of Westerners. I do not believe I misrepresented what you wrote, though I may have misrepresented what you meant. But then I read the rest of your comment and I feel comfortable that I didn't misread anything at all. In fact you make that clear at the end: > And in the meantime people in Poland live everyday lives, not caring about all that stuff. I know Polish people that do not think like you. I don't take them to represent the entirety of your country, nor do I take your word either. I'm not really going to debate the topics, nor do I care to defend myself against the imagined caricature you've conjured of me. I just think your claims to represent the reality in Poland do not square with the reality I know others live or behavior that is plainly evident from your major political party in power. Of course that party doesn't represent everyone anymore than Trump represents most Americans, but it evidences something real and tangible.
    - aaron695 6y ago
ojnabieoot 6y ago
You are just full of shit. Kaczynski wouldn’t have described LGBT rights as a “threat to Poland” if it weren’t for all the brave Polish activists who do in fact care about these things. 30% of Poles support same-sex marriage. The idea that the governing party of Poland speaks for all Poles is just fascist bullshit.
- effry-much 6y ago
  So how does the LGBT rights relates to the topic we discussed, that is : misogyny and xenophobia? I think this lack of ability to actually communicate with other people is typical for SJШs. This way they create a mental safe space where they isolate themselves from reality.
  - leetcrew 6y ago
    it seems like a reasonable proxy to me. most people who care about LGBT rights also care about misogyny and xenophobia, or at least claim to. this is what they call "intersectionalism".
- leetcrew 6y ago
  if only 30% of poles support same-sex marriage, doesn't that support the position that poland is not as concerned with LGBT issues as the west? in america, which is hardly seen as a bastion of social justice, that number is more like 60%.
- batushka3 6y ago
  LGBT is an ideology, not "a rights package", so it's perfectly normal no reject it. All shamed eastern EU countries have working anti discrimination laws years in place. Even gay people hate LGBT, look at Jozsef Szajer example.

krageon 6y ago

Honestly, the criticisms about misogyny and xenophobia that I've read (and I've read a lot of them) are extremely low-effort and bland. The story of the game and it's environment is strikingly negative about what is happening and doesn't for even one moment dip into approval. Of course, this is easy to miss if you just spend 30m looking around and all you see is a corporate hellscape.

zpeti 6y ago

As someone in a central european country, I can confirm, you are wrong, and we don't care what LMBFQQUBDSBDSAH letter is the fashion today. You have every right to be offended by that, I don't really care.

bambataa 6y ago
Do the LMBFQQUBDSBDSAH people in your country care?
- golergka 6y ago
  We care for the real struggle with LBTGQ rights like being murdered. But most of us are annoyed and upset by the woke theater of getting offended that most of the american activists are busy with.

throwaway743 6y ago

Both The Guardian reviewer and yourself, must've not played the game through. The Guardian mentions misogyny in context to female sex workers (in the game "dolls"), but the reality is that there's an equal amount of male "dolls" within the main storyline (at Clouds) and throughout the game. And if there is any misogyny displayed within the game, it's from scumbag characters. Emphasizing that the attitude/perspective is rooted in scumbag thinking.

PestoDiRucola 6y ago

Well Eastern-European countries are notoriously xenophobic and misogynistic. Poland recently outlawed abortion for instance.

mensetmanusman 6y ago
Broad strokes are not useful for real discussion (e.g. replace ‘eastern-European’ with ‘blacks’ or ‘Jews’ and you will see how it reads to your audience.)
ojnabieoot 6y ago
It’s true that Central and Eastern European governments have lagged behind North America and Western Europe when it comes to sexual freedom and LGBT rights, and that reactionary views are more widespread in those societies. The problem is that the Republicans in America is exactly as misogynistic and anti-abortion as Law and Justice in Poland. It is quite likely that Roe v Wade will be turned over in America in 2021. These things are not static and can change dramatically in a decade. Trying to make this about national attitudes is a mistake that only leads to confusion and misunderstanding. And with Poland and Hungary especially, the government has become strongly anti-LGBT in response to increased public support for LGBT rights, as part of a general authoritarian far-right ideology. This complicated political development with a homogenous expression of Hungarian/Polish society. And in the case of CD Projekt Red in particular: for starters, you can’t claim “golly, those humble Poles just have different views than you American folk” when your game is set in America, is clearly about American culture, was heavily marketed towards Americans, and prominently features major American actors. And CD Projekt Red has repeatedly apologized for their transphobic GOG ad campaign. They are not hicks who are unaware of some Ivory Tower concern by elite American liberals. They are in fact fully aware of what they are doing and they made a moral choice.
- effry-much 6y ago
  I think you are just full of shit. Whether you like it or not, the 'woke culture' will end sooner than later, and we will have a full pendulum swing back to the good old game.
6y ago

coward8675309 6y ago

I read the comment you just flipped out over as suggesting that the developers weren't tuned into to the current performative hypersensitivity and outrage that is fashionable among members of the American Left and those who pander for their clicks — not that Poles as a people are somehow more misogynistic or xenophobic than Americans.