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I have a weird relationship with sleep. If I sleep LESS (5, 6 hours) I feel better. More energy, lighter on my feet, less depressed. That lack of sleep alway

I have a weird relationship with sleep. If I sleep LESS (5, 6 hours) I feel better. More energy, lighter on my feet, less depressed. That lack of sleep always catches up with me though, and after 4-5 days of that I'll have a day where I just feel EXHAUSTED and end up sleeping like 10 hours that night.

Guest42 6y ago
For me it seems like the earlier I start the less is required.
PragmaticPulp 6y ago
> If I sleep LESS (5, 6 hours) I feel better. More energy, lighter on my feet, less depressed. This is a well-known phenomenon, believe it or not. Acute sleep deprivation has a strong anti-depressant effect in people suffering from depression. It can even trigger hypomanic or manic episodes in people who have bipolar disorder. Scientific American wrote a nice article about it several years ago: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-sleep-deprivation-eases-depression/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-sleep-depriva... As you noticed, the effect is completely unsustainable. Chronic sleep deprivation will worsen depression, not improve it. There has been some research into using acute sleep deprivation to kick-start treatment with traditional antidepressant medication. Results are mixed, but it can help some patients cope until the antidepressants start working. There is also some [very] weak evidence that advancing your sleep phase (going to bed earlier, waking up earlier) can stabilize the acute antidepressant effects for a couple of days: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12799743/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12799743/ Long term, treating the underlying depression with traditional methods (CBT, bright light therapy, exercise, antidepressant medications) is the only sustainable solution for most people.
- James_Henry 6y ago
  In studies on wake therapy I've seen, there is a percentage that have long-lasting positive improvement from just one night of sleep deprivation.
  - porknubbins 6y ago
    I started to notice the lack of sleep mood boost once it was pointed out. Occasionally I’ll wake up 3 hours earlier than normal for no apparent reason and generally feel energetic and productive.
  - PragmaticPulp 6y ago
    Long lasting improvement compared to a control group? Depression studies are basically useless without a control group. In any given depression cohort, a number of patients will spontaneously improve even if they receive placebo or no treatment at all. For many (lucky) people, depressive episodes simply resolve after some time, so capturing them in studies without control groups can produce misleading results.
tartoran 6y ago
To me that mark is 6 hours. The more I sleep past that the more lethargic I become. Likewise if I sleep between 5 and 6 hours I’m fine but will catch up with me
mbesto 6y ago
> and end up sleeping like 10 hours that night Paraphrased from the book - basically once you get passed the number of REM cycles needed all of the sleep after that is worthless and ends up just making you groggy. In other words the idea of "catching up on sleep" is BS.
- Darkphibre 6y ago
  I do find it curious that the body seems to need to sleep longer after long bouts of insomnia (or a week of 18hr work days). I think the hypothesis "You need an extra hour of sleep for every hour missed" is disproven, but the body clearly needs a single dose of extra recovery time after exhaustion.
- James_Henry 6y ago
  Does the book give sources for this? And do those sources actually support this claim? It doesn't sound completely correct.
  - mbesto 6y ago
    For this specific notion - I can't remember honestly. But most of the book is backed up by sources / studies. As I noted in this thread - I don't think 100% of what author communicates in the book is factual or conclusive, but he does a great job of collecting multiple perspectives and studies to combine it into one thought provoking read. Like any book that has an agenda/angle, a healthy dose of skepticism is always required.
- copperx 6y ago
  My biggest criticism of the book is that it didn't address oversleep. Where did you find that bit of info?
James_Henry 6y ago
Wake therapy is a well known treatment for depression, but I have a theory that for some people this sort of thing is a sign of sleep apnea. The reason being sleep breathing is more likely to be disturbed during REM which is more predominant in the later hours of sleep. So skipping those last 1 or 2 REM cycles could be skipping out on, for sleep apneacs, the most stressful parts of the sleep.
michaelcampbell 6y ago
If I may ask, how old are you? As I age I find that I can handle a little less sleep, but my ability to handle swings in amounts of sleep is way less; even if I can get by with :30 less per night than 5 years ago, 1:00 less on one night affects me WAY more than it did 5 years ago. I'm in my 50's, FWIW.

Guest42 6y ago

For me it seems like the earlier I start the less is required.

PragmaticPulp 6y ago

> If I sleep LESS (5, 6 hours) I feel better. More energy, lighter on my feet, less depressed. This is a well-known phenomenon, believe it or not. Acute sleep deprivation has a strong anti-depressant effect in people suffering from depression. It can even trigger hypomanic or manic episodes in people who have bipolar disorder. Scientific American wrote a nice article about it several years ago: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-sleep-deprivation-eases-depression/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-sleep-depriva... As you noticed, the effect is completely unsustainable. Chronic sleep deprivation will worsen depression, not improve it. There has been some research into using acute sleep deprivation to kick-start treatment with traditional antidepressant medication. Results are mixed, but it can help some patients cope until the antidepressants start working. There is also some [very] weak evidence that advancing your sleep phase (going to bed earlier, waking up earlier) can stabilize the acute antidepressant effects for a couple of days: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12799743/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12799743/ Long term, treating the underlying depression with traditional methods (CBT, bright light therapy, exercise, antidepressant medications) is the only sustainable solution for most people.

James_Henry 6y ago
In studies on wake therapy I've seen, there is a percentage that have long-lasting positive improvement from just one night of sleep deprivation.
- porknubbins 6y ago
  I started to notice the lack of sleep mood boost once it was pointed out. Occasionally I’ll wake up 3 hours earlier than normal for no apparent reason and generally feel energetic and productive.
- PragmaticPulp 6y ago
  Long lasting improvement compared to a control group? Depression studies are basically useless without a control group. In any given depression cohort, a number of patients will spontaneously improve even if they receive placebo or no treatment at all. For many (lucky) people, depressive episodes simply resolve after some time, so capturing them in studies without control groups can produce misleading results.

tartoran 6y ago

To me that mark is 6 hours. The more I sleep past that the more lethargic I become. Likewise if I sleep between 5 and 6 hours I’m fine but will catch up with me

mbesto 6y ago

> and end up sleeping like 10 hours that night Paraphrased from the book - basically once you get passed the number of REM cycles needed all of the sleep after that is worthless and ends up just making you groggy. In other words the idea of "catching up on sleep" is BS.

Darkphibre 6y ago
I do find it curious that the body seems to need to sleep longer after long bouts of insomnia (or a week of 18hr work days). I think the hypothesis "You need an extra hour of sleep for every hour missed" is disproven, but the body clearly needs a single dose of extra recovery time after exhaustion.
James_Henry 6y ago
Does the book give sources for this? And do those sources actually support this claim? It doesn't sound completely correct.
- mbesto 6y ago
  For this specific notion - I can't remember honestly. But most of the book is backed up by sources / studies. As I noted in this thread - I don't think 100% of what author communicates in the book is factual or conclusive, but he does a great job of collecting multiple perspectives and studies to combine it into one thought provoking read. Like any book that has an agenda/angle, a healthy dose of skepticism is always required.
copperx 6y ago
My biggest criticism of the book is that it didn't address oversleep. Where did you find that bit of info?

James_Henry 6y ago

Wake therapy is a well known treatment for depression, but I have a theory that for some people this sort of thing is a sign of sleep apnea. The reason being sleep breathing is more likely to be disturbed during REM which is more predominant in the later hours of sleep. So skipping those last 1 or 2 REM cycles could be skipping out on, for sleep apneacs, the most stressful parts of the sleep.

michaelcampbell 6y ago

If I may ask, how old are you? As I age I find that I can handle a little less sleep, but my ability to handle swings in amounts of sleep is way less; even if I can get by with :30 less per night than 5 years ago, 1:00 less on one night affects me WAY more than it did 5 years ago. I'm in my 50's, FWIW.