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Class warfare is pointless. Businesses are shuttering. Sure, make accusations of fraud (do you have any proof?) - but those expenses can't be frivolous unless y

Class warfare is pointless. Businesses are shuttering. Sure, make accusations of fraud (do you have any proof?) - but those expenses can't be frivolous unless you want a huge issue with the IRS. Should relief be so strict and policed (its own cost) or should it be flexible for businesses that may have had to build outdoor accomodations?

dragonwriter 6y ago
> Class warfare is pointless. The position of the capitalist class, built on successful class warfare first against the pre-capitalist aristocracy and then against the working classes within capitalism, proves this to be false. As, for that matter, does the (arguably modest, but still very real) progress of the working class from the height of the system first described as “capitalism” in the late 19th and early 20th centuries through its replacement by the modern mixed economy from the mid-20th century to today as a result of class warfare by the working classes against the entrenched capitalist class. Though “class warfare is pointless” is always what those defending class warfare by the capitalist class say when the working classes fight back.
- NoOneNew 6y ago
  >The position of the capitalist class, built on successful class warfare first against the pre-capitalist aristocracy and then against the working classes within capitalism, proves this to be false. Name me a socialist/communist gov that did any better. Each implementation grew the class divides even more. So far China, I would say, is the most economically viable model due to their opening to international market practice. However, the party still controls it and divvies out the work to a select few. Their social credit system helps them determine who is more worthy by putting people in different categories... oh wait that's just a class system with extra steps. It's not a capitalist fault. It's a human fault. We've done it for not hundreds of years, but thousands upon thousands. Long before Adam's or Marx parents were a twinkle in anyone's nethers. Finding a scapegoat for problems you dont quite understand and refuse to research beyond a 10min youtube cartoon does not constitute as good logic.
  - AlexandrB 6y ago
    Most socialist Scandinavian countries are doing better than the US by most measures of societal wellness (life expectancy, divorce rates, crime, etc).
    - NoOneNew 6y ago
      Also extremely high dependence on oil. They are also not as socialist as people imagine. I think it was Sweden that implemented a bunch of socialist laws in the 70s, their econ tanked and they back peddled on a lot of it. The myth they're still as socialist remains today. Check out Norway's expenditure on welfare programs. It's like 136m euro or something like that per year. I researched this a year or two ago. Then check out how much their state oil brings in. I want you to do it so you can see for yourself how much "norway hates fossil fuels and capitalism". Because without the free market on oil, there would be zero Norwegian welfare system. Yes, Americans call the Scandinavians socialists, the same way dry rub BBQ pit masters call BBQ sauces the devil's abomination to food. It's either anachronistic hyperbole or just plain hyperbolic. Steps toward socialism sure, but we're not talking about comrade level stuff.
    - nradov 6y ago
      Which Scandinavian countries are socialist? The workers don't own the means of production. In general the Scandinavian countries are capitalist with strong safety nets.
      - ardy42 6y ago
        > Which Scandinavian countries are socialist? The workers don't own the means of production. In general the Scandinavian countries are capitalist with strong safety nets. That's what we're calling socialism nowadays (e.g. pretty much anything that's not laissez faire capitalism). That mushiness is what leads some people to think they can condemn social democracy with the example of Soviet central planning.
        dragonwriter 6y ago
alistairSH 6y ago
Sure, make accusations of fraud The OP didn't allege fraud. He stated two facts... relief loans were not required to cover wages. Loans <$150k can be forgiven. I don't think it's unreasonable to require some % of the loans to cover wages of employee's whose hours were cut or were furloughed completely. That said, a better option would have been direct payments to employees from the government. The $1200 check model but on a larger scale (ie, $1200/month or similar).
- maxerickson 6y ago
  There were several months of direct Federal payments made to people collecting state unemployment. In May and June, many of the people hot to open things back up were partly motivated by unemployment, they didn't want states making the payments.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> Class warfare is pointless. The position of the capitalist class, built on successful class warfare first against the pre-capitalist aristocracy and then against the working classes within capitalism, proves this to be false. As, for that matter, does the (arguably modest, but still very real) progress of the working class from the height of the system first described as “capitalism” in the late 19th and early 20th centuries through its replacement by the modern mixed economy from the mid-20th century to today as a result of class warfare by the working classes against the entrenched capitalist class. Though “class warfare is pointless” is always what those defending class warfare by the capitalist class say when the working classes fight back.

NoOneNew 6y ago
>The position of the capitalist class, built on successful class warfare first against the pre-capitalist aristocracy and then against the working classes within capitalism, proves this to be false. Name me a socialist/communist gov that did any better. Each implementation grew the class divides even more. So far China, I would say, is the most economically viable model due to their opening to international market practice. However, the party still controls it and divvies out the work to a select few. Their social credit system helps them determine who is more worthy by putting people in different categories... oh wait that's just a class system with extra steps. It's not a capitalist fault. It's a human fault. We've done it for not hundreds of years, but thousands upon thousands. Long before Adam's or Marx parents were a twinkle in anyone's nethers. Finding a scapegoat for problems you dont quite understand and refuse to research beyond a 10min youtube cartoon does not constitute as good logic.
- AlexandrB 6y ago
  Most socialist Scandinavian countries are doing better than the US by most measures of societal wellness (life expectancy, divorce rates, crime, etc).
  - NoOneNew 6y ago
    Also extremely high dependence on oil. They are also not as socialist as people imagine. I think it was Sweden that implemented a bunch of socialist laws in the 70s, their econ tanked and they back peddled on a lot of it. The myth they're still as socialist remains today. Check out Norway's expenditure on welfare programs. It's like 136m euro or something like that per year. I researched this a year or two ago. Then check out how much their state oil brings in. I want you to do it so you can see for yourself how much "norway hates fossil fuels and capitalism". Because without the free market on oil, there would be zero Norwegian welfare system. Yes, Americans call the Scandinavians socialists, the same way dry rub BBQ pit masters call BBQ sauces the devil's abomination to food. It's either anachronistic hyperbole or just plain hyperbolic. Steps toward socialism sure, but we're not talking about comrade level stuff.
  - nradov 6y ago
    Which Scandinavian countries are socialist? The workers don't own the means of production. In general the Scandinavian countries are capitalist with strong safety nets.
    - ardy42 6y ago
      > Which Scandinavian countries are socialist? The workers don't own the means of production. In general the Scandinavian countries are capitalist with strong safety nets. That's what we're calling socialism nowadays (e.g. pretty much anything that's not laissez faire capitalism). That mushiness is what leads some people to think they can condemn social democracy with the example of Soviet central planning.
      - dragonwriter 6y ago

alistairSH 6y ago

Sure, make accusations of fraud The OP didn't allege fraud. He stated two facts... relief loans were not required to cover wages. Loans <$150k can be forgiven. I don't think it's unreasonable to require some % of the loans to cover wages of employee's whose hours were cut or were furloughed completely. That said, a better option would have been direct payments to employees from the government. The $1200 check model but on a larger scale (ie, $1200/month or similar).

maxerickson 6y ago
There were several months of direct Federal payments made to people collecting state unemployment. In May and June, many of the people hot to open things back up were partly motivated by unemployment, they didn't want states making the payments.