31 ms·

I Regret Quitting Astrophysics

196 points by petschge 6y ago

hpoe 6y ago
Interesting that the pay difference didn't come up at all. I would've thought that would be a big change from Academia to Business.
- klipt 6y ago
  If you have to work somewhere like Silicon Valley, a lot of the pay difference might get eaten by housing.
  - moreisdiff 6y ago
    To some extent, but as someone who made that transition from 25-40K as a grad student/post-doc to even a modest tech salary in those areas (e.g., 100K), the difference is more than compensated for with rent/mortgages being ~10-20K more expensive. Plus, more and more data teams are now allowing remote work (though, let's see how long that lasts post-2020).
- aqme28 6y ago
  The pay difference is pretty staggering, but after a certain threshold it stops being a very good motivator.
- SiempreViernes 6y ago
  It's not that surprising: this is a person that went far into astronomy to start with, that's not something you do chasing riches.
mellosouls 6y ago
Most of the regrets here seem to be about quitting academia or "meaningful" work rather than astrophysics per se. No reason why as a data scientist he can't pivot from financial services into something more research oriented within industry, or back into academia; the pay will likely be much less in the latter case, but the opportunities for work on a more meaningful track with like-minded people will be there.
- magneticnorth 6y ago
  As another STEM PhD data scientist who is thinking of pivoting back into academia at some point, do you have specific examples of the kinds of jobs that are available that would welcome and benefit from industry DS experience? Perhaps teaching DS or computer science?
  - mellosouls 6y ago
    I think that any reputable academic department would welcome industry experience depending on the context; I can't give specific examples without searching (e.g. on portals like academicpositions.com). And certainly teaching with your background sounds like a strong possibility if it appeals. More generally, I would say that the key would be to target roles and teams that cross the boundary between pure research and software engineering, which could vary from straight research software engineer roles - with say, "machine learning" or tech associated with data science (e.g. "jupyter") as an example of what you might search for in key skills and keyword filters; or by generally investigating the support roles within academic institutions because that can be a backdoor way in. Naturally the closer the research to your specific experience the stronger your application would be. One way outside of the normal job search platforms you can identify those gaps is to keep an eye on conferences (especially during the present time while they are online) and the communities they serve and (e.g. if you are a coder) the most widely used code libraries as referenced in academic papers; apart from giving you an idea of where your skills might plug a gap they offer scope for networking in the former case. Sorry to be vague/obvious or responding to a different question, but I don't have specific examples to mind, this is just what I have seen actually working as a strategy into data science-related roles in similar institutions with people without your enhanced qualifications (stem phd and industry data science experience).
    - borroka 6y ago
      There are a few fields in which there is movement academia to industry to academia, that is there is a permeable academia-industry barrier. Say, computer science and adjacent fields, business/economics if we include business schools, medicine, but hospitals can also be research centers. For the vast majority of other fields, if you move to industry, they (academia) are not interested in you anymore. Yes, there are some exceptions like that flight attendant who survived after falling out of the plane at I don't know how many feet of altitude, but in my research field (one the life sciences) I have yet to see someone moving back to academia after having left to go work in industry. First, they (academia) do not want you anymore, you are simply expired. Second, as one faculty when I was a postdoc said: we would like to ask researchers who moved into the private sector how life is out there, but they never came back to tell us. And, I must add, it is easy to guess why: as soon as one gets some distance from the academic world (and I guess, from most worlds, but let's stay focused on academia), they see that when researchers are not making ground-breaking work, they are just doing some work, not better or worse than many others that requires passion and dedication, pay little, and leave you like snow in the summer sun when you are not needed anymore. Recently, someone in academia told me: when you are tired of industry, you can try to get back into academia, maybe as a professor of practice. Like, for 1/3 of the money and 3 times the annoyances? I would much prefer to open a pizzeria and I don't eat pizza.
the_arun 6y ago
I think passion rules everything for most of us - unless we have passion for money :)
- Dig1t 6y ago
  An interesting comment, sadly I find that most people I know are passionate about money and not much else.
  - klipt 6y ago
    Or you can be passionate about giving your family good opportunities (live in a nice area, good education, be able to travel) and having money enables that.
secabeen 6y ago
It was interesting to see the author specifically call out the joys of working in a University environment. It is a unique environment, and working with/for some of the smartest people in the world is a nice perk.
reptation 6y ago
> Being at the forefront of figuring things out about the workings of the Universe is amazing, and unparalleled in any business setting. This is the key attitude to gauging whether it's worth sticking it out in academia. I tell people you really need to be 'obsessed' with science (indeed, obsession is really a key concept: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riaYwt0gf20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riaYwt0gf20). Just being interested in problem-solving isn't close to enough to put up with the low pay and rather tough working conditions. There's lots of interesting problems out there in industry.
- skullgrid 6y ago
  This is exactly the conclusion that I came to before I also left astrophysics for industry. In order to outweigh all the cons of working in academia, you really have to have a deep passion or obsession with the particular problem you are researching. In my opinion, being _just_ interested is not enough, and that's where I found myself. I drove myself down the academic career path because I thought I would find meaning and purpose there, but when I didn't find it all of the pressures and toxicity of academia just didn't seem worth it. It's only been two years since I left, and sure there are some things that I miss, but I definitely do not regret leaving.
credit_guy 6y ago
I think this guy should stop regretting. He used to do astrophysics and there were things he didn't like about that. He's now doing data science and there are things he doesn't like about this, and looking back (with a bit of rose tinted glasses) at his life 7 years ago, he has regrets. Newsflash: the vast majority of jobs out there are not that fun. That's why you get paid. If they were a lot of fun, you'd be the one who pays, just like you pay when you go to a concert. Some jobs are meaningful. Working for Moderna and making a vaccine that's going to save millions of lives, that's meaningful. Finding a cure for a certain type of cancer, it's meaningful. But saying that astrophysics is meaningful because some internet surveys find it to be "the sexiest job in the world", that's quite shallow. 99.9999% of the jobs out there don't end up with you saving the world. You just do some stuff, get paid for it, and then go home and live your life with your family and friends.
- dplavery92 6y ago
  >But saying that astrophysics is meaningful because some internet surveys find it to be "the sexiest job in the world", that's quite shallow. To the author's credit, I read that sentence the other way around: the internet deigns "Data Scientist" to be the "sexiest job," but he doesn't feel satisfaction that matches that reputation. >The internet says I have ”the sexiest job of the 21st century”, but I think my previous job was more enjoyable to brag about at birthday parties.
otras 6y ago
This reminds of a colleague's joke: what do you call a physicist a few years after they get their degree? A data scientist! I only completed my undergrad in physics before shifting to tech, but I've seen many instances of people working in software/programming/data science roles after their undergrad/grad studies in physics.
- atemerev 6y ago
  You also can do quantitative finance!
  - supernova87a 6y ago
    What I found, even by the middle 2000s, was that since there were entire grad programs now dedicated to producing quants, someone trying to switch from physics, etc. was already less attractive unless it was a very special company paying attention to the potential of former scientists. The days of a physicist being a top hire for quantitative finance based on potential in a new field, are largely over.
    - kgwgk 6y ago
      And "data science" is not a new field any more. "Data scientists" are now being produced as such.
    - atemerev 6y ago
      Ex-physicists are still welcome. The mathematics involved is similar, and what’s more important, physicists have the right attitude to work as quants. “Hack and approximate until you can solve the seemingly impossible”. Of course, some genuine interest and preliminary exploration of the field are essential for anyone aspiring to work there, physicist or not.
mym1990 6y ago
The mind has a way of tricking us into remembering many of the good things and fewer of the bad ones(or sometimes even rationalizing bad things into good ones). Not to say that the regret here isn't valid, but just to be careful how much stock to put into missing the 'good ole days'. "The people who questioned my decision to become an extronomer were right. I was wrong. It seems too late to get back in." This mindset irks me because this individual strikes me as being bright, talented, curious, and hard working. You are not wrong because you took a leap in life and it didn't work out perfectly, its a valuable learning experience. It is different if you assess the opportunity costs and risks and rewards with going back to astrophysics and decide that it is not worth it and move on...but to say it is 'too late' is you pouting and trying to let yourself down easy.
- teachrdan 6y ago
  > You are not wrong because you took a leap in life and it didn't work out perfectly, its a valuable learning experience. The author obviously understands this is a learning experience--that's why they wrote the essay in the first place. The challenge is that, on a practical level, starting over will likely take too many years, with too great a risk of not getting a job in academia. This is hardly "pouting and trying to let yourself down easy." It's the disheartening wisdom that sometimes you learn things too late in life to benefit from them.
  - mym1990 6y ago
    Starting over? He literally says "I think I have gained skills and experience that can be very valuable to the astronomical community". And that is on top of the foundation that he has already built in his earlier years. Unless there is some glitch where you lose all previous experience in life if you decide to backtrack a bit. I guess ultimately I don't really know what the author's goals would be in academia, and I am not from academia...and that makes it difficult to really explore the situation.
    - SiempreViernes 6y ago
      He's also obviously missed out of a lot of new knowledge that's been produced while he wasn't there, as well as loosing some skills that haven't been used. As for his goals, well most of the article is about the things he's missing so the straightforward guess is to have that back?
LetThereBeLight 6y ago
What the author appears to be describing is the experience of being a PhD student/postdoc that he misses. As faculty you are (usually) no longer running experiments and analyzing data, but managing people/projects, writing/reviewing papers, teaching, sitting on committees, and constantly applying for grants. While it is indeed unlikely he can find a faculty position after 7 years of being out of academia, he may in fact be happier looking for a senior scientist position at a university. As long as he is okay with the salary that is.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
markus_zhang 6y ago
The thing is if you don't quit then there is going to be another post about regretting not quitting. I have gone past the age to feel strongly regret to any choice I made. As long as I made a desicive choice without much delay I'm good with it (of course unless something really bad happens), because I know I'd regret if I choose the other way (or not), anyway.
- unemphysbro 6y ago
  as much as I dislike the 'the grass is always greener...' cliche, it's fundamentally true. :)
  - carabiner 6y ago
    Left a low-paying, stable, very boring non-software engineering job. Working in tech now, good money, but man do I wish for those "boring" days sometimes. It's meetings and craziness every day now, always having to prove myself vs. being a stable cog in a machine. Overall I find that the added money is commensurate with the added stress / life burden.
cbanek 6y ago
Let me just say to all those out there who have left academia and went into industry: academia would be happy to have you back! I went into "academia" (or close to it), doing software engineering for a telescope being built. Astronomers are a great little community out there, and they really need help writing code. A lot of them aren't familiar or have experience with best industry practices that could save them so much time/money/heartache. Bunches of projects are hiring, and if you have creds, and industry experience, that will only increase your value. I'm sure you could find a job at any of the wonderful facilities wherever you want to be around the world! Sometimes you have to look at the grass from the other side to realize it's greener, and that's fine. Some day I may go back to industry and get paid again. But it's all good fun anyway.
- gammarator 6y ago
  (Obligatory "we're hiring" link): https://www.lsst.org/hiring/ https://www.lsst.org/hiring/
- andi999 6y ago
  Maybe this is true for your country, but not true here (there is even a limited number of years you are allowed to work in academia by law)
  - cbanek 6y ago
    Very interesting, could you tell me where that is? At least in the US, tenure is a really big thing. But there are plenty of people who are paid employees at the university and aren't teaching, and I'd also consider that academia.
    - jacobr1 6y ago
      And I'd love to work assisting cutting-edge research, but I also am not willing to cut my salary that severely. I wonder if there is a way to do this that doesn't presume near-grad-student rates.
      - 6y ago
unemphysbro 6y ago
I'm a new-isly minted biophysics PhD. The reason I got into physics was because it felt fulfilling and my opinion of industry was shaped by a high-school internship at a defense contractor which was a total slog. During my PhD, I got the full experience, drumming up new ideas, grant/proposal writing, managing and setting project goals, maintaining collaborations and doing the actual work. It was fulfilling and fun especially working with great group of people that are 100% dedicated but, boy, was really, really hard. The long hours, terrible pay, and watching people stuck in the post-doc treadmill got to me. Plus, I saw quite a few 2-body problems fall apart (mine included). I also watched my advisor go through the tenure process, it seemed like he never slept. It's been challenging getting into industry (I'm still looking :) ), but, if I make it, I'll write a blog post to see if there are any regrets in 5 years. But, like the author, I'm already missing the culture, going to seminars (the terrible seminar coffee), and nerding out with friends in other disciplines.
- ramraj07 6y ago
  There will always be regrets, but at least you'll sleep better and rub your tears with Benjamins if you leave academia and regret that :) Academia will always look like the grass is greener "I can do whatever I want" type. But we shouldn't forget actually you can't, you can only do what others think you're good at, and what the grant review panels think you can feasibly do. My plan is to just use the extra money from a tech job to open my garage lab. It's getting easier by the day. A fancy deltavision microscope costs less than a cheap boat, so it's not even an expensive hobby if you think about it. You really can do whatever you want, you'll just be limited by money than by other people :)
  - owenversteeg 6y ago
    Just out of curiosity, how much is a fancy deltavision microscope? I very briefly Googled to check and didn't see anything on eBay or other sites. And why not rent time on one? Apparently the University of Arizona (and a number of other universities) rent time on theirs for $25/hr (https://microscopy.arizona.edu/equipment/deltavision-rt-deconvolution-microscope-com https://microscopy.arizona.edu/equipment/deltavision-rt-deco...)
beeforpork 6y ago
You can definitely go back -- academia loves people with industry experience. Few people go back because they typically earn less money in academic jobs. So you now have something academia loves, and there is little competition of other people having that kind of experience.
- jrumbut 6y ago
  I think what trips people up is that the opportunities to return are not necessarily the same as the ones that you would look for if you were still on the direct path. To start with, if you're tied to an area, you have to start your search with the area and get creative finding the right job title instead of the other way around.
ErikAugust 6y ago
"It seems too late to get back in." The author appears to be alive, and astrophysics still seems to exist. So, what exactly is the problem? I expect wrong answers only.
- raziel2701 6y ago
  He left in 2013, most postdocs positions have a 5 year cutoff for eligibility. It's been 7 years since he got the degree so a lot of doors have already closed for postdoc opportunities. Professors will find reasons to not hire him such as being out of the game for too long and thus he's not caught up in the literature or whatever. He could try to go in as a data scientist. It is true though that usually that job goes to students because they're cheap and capable, they just take longer. So yeah it's kind of hard to compete against cheap, passionate labor that students provide.
  - wolco2 6y ago
    He becomes a student again and takes on a slightly different postdoc if he wants to go back to that level.
    - mattkrause 6y ago
      Fairly few places will let you do (or fund you for) a second PhD.
  - mattkrause 6y ago
    I don't even think it's most personal--it's just a lot harder to pay someone who isn't eligible for most fellowships. I have no idea how that blatant age discrimination is legal but....
- kill-procrustes 6y ago
  There's a line from a show I like: "I figure there are always going to be reasons not to do something. If you really want to do it, then you have to do it." It sound simplistic but honestly, this happens in life. I feel for the author as someone in the same situation (left academia for industry). But at some point it is what it is. You can't change reality. You can't reverse time. So in every moment you just have to decide, "Given the world is this way, what do I want to do?" The world is going to continue on day after day and is not going to stop or fundamentally alter itself to align with your preferences and well-being. All you get is the choice.
jkingsbery 6y ago
> I think I have gained skills and experience that can be very valuable to the astronomical community, but I know that that is simply not what candidates for academic positions are selected on. t seems pretty damning to suggest that a community selects its members based on something other than having "skills and experience that can be very valuable" to that same community. Is that really true? Hopefully we're putting the best people in place for these academic jobs, and not simply the well-connected people who happened to go to the fanciest schools.
- petschge 6y ago
  You get hired permanently if you excel (or promise to excel) in three categories: 1.) Getting grants 2.) Productive science 3.) Teaching. All the skills that the author has gained might help with #2, but he hasn't actually published in the last years to prove that. And he has nothing to show for #1 and #3. All the while he is much older than other candidates, i.e. the university will get much less use (in particular of the service duties that are fulfilled later in the career) out of him. So why exactly should they hire him over somebody that has gotten a similar amount of experience while doing a postdoc or two and maybe a junior university position, while ALSO improving on grant writing experience and gaining teaching experience?
- borroka 6y ago
  Just to make an example, politicians are certainly not the best political/organizational minds that one can find in this world. When the results of an activity are nuanced, that is the results are not clearly measurable (revenue, profit, distance, weight, etc. are clear, measurable metrics), the skills of the members of the community are unlikely to be the best one can find. Since most of the research work is inevitably useless, there are reasons for hiring that are other than skills and experience and quality.
sujeetb 6y ago
Slightly related - I’d like to hear from someone who left academia for industry for a ‘research scientist’ role. How does that compare to academia?
aqme28 6y ago
You learned something really important about what you don't like. That's not worth regretting. Get back into academia with newfound commitment. This time you won't be looking over your shoulder wondering if you're missing something in "the real world."
ProAm 6y ago
I wanted to do Astronomy or Astrophysics as a degree/career choice when I was growing up. What changed my mind was every single astronomer or astrophysicist I spoke to about pursuing the career literally told me not to. No jobs, no money, don't do it. Being young and unfamiliar I listened to their advice and went to university for a different career. Academia research seems like a lot of politics and bs to put up with however I think I would have enjoyed that career much more than software development I am in now.
- wolco2 6y ago
  The recent large group who jump into software after the hype seems like the unhappiest group. I'm just happy I get to see a terminal screen for a living.
- ntsplnkv2 6y ago
  I've found if you look closely at any job there are huge amounts of negative points of view. Even in software, well paying jobs on here, people dread their work, they work on adtech, don't learn anything, constantly deal with churn and ageism, hate their manager...etc. The fact is everything has its downsides. Industry has just as much politics. The key is to find a balance of what you like doing and your livelihood - sway too far one way, sure, you'll have money, but you'll hate yourself. The other, you won't be able to have an adequate lifestyle, and also hate yourself.
draw_down 6y ago
Do people really go into industry because they’re expecting to enjoy it? I thought it was to get paid. Academics are supposed to like their work more than us industry stiffs, aren’t they? Because if that’s not the case........ what exactly would be the draw?
bartread 6y ago
> On top of that, being geographically bound doesn’t help. I can absolutely believe that this is still an issue, but it's also highly disappointing that's still the case. All your data analysis is done on a computer, and I'd bet that every telescope or instrument you have to interact with is computer controlled and can be worked with remotely with little modification. Yes, astrophysical datasets can be absolutely enormous, and bandwidth can become a serious constraint, but we have solutions to those problems too - that's one of the reason terminal sessions (in their various modern guises) are so powerful. You would think or hope that by the end of 2020 when a global pandemic has taught many of us that, for much of the time, for those of us whose working lives are mostly spent "in computers", we would have learned that geography is not a significant barrier. At least not with decent enough internet connectivity. Again, sadly, I'm not surprised to see that in certain circles it is still an issue. It's a cultural change, and those can take an awfully long time to work themselves out.
- SiempreViernes 6y ago
  Uh, the point is that currently all the people, and students, and facilities of a university is physically located at a certain spot, not about where the telescopes or data centres lie (telescopes that lie on campus aren't very useful anyway due to all the light pollution and bad weather).
astrophysician 6y ago
As another former astrophysicist-turned-datascientist (though with only 2 years after the transition instead of Marcel's 7), this hits close to home, but my experience in both worlds I think is a bit different. If you are an astrophysicist curious about moving into the datascience profession, I would just like to point out that satisfaction with a move like that depends on a large number of factors, and that you should consider not only Marcel's experiences (which I think are important and shared by many) but your own personal circumstances. There are pro's and con's for every person. Let me offer another datapoint: * I left after my PhD, which ended absolutely terribly. I knew years before finishing that I was just not cut out for a life in academia, and positioned myself in the best way I knew how for a life in industry, but I did not anticipate just how truly painful the experience would be. I stayed to finish my PhD out of a nagging obligation to follow through with a lifelong dream of mine. I thought I would deeply regret leaving after receiving my masters degree. Whether or not that is true, I really don't (and will never) know. But I was not happy. * My personal reasons for unhappiness are not uncommon but are definitely not universal. I did not excel at the entrepreneurial and social aspects of astrophysics that are crucial for success. Without strong social and professional ties to close collaborators within the community, and without an innate ability to thrive in an environment with very little structure, add to that a predisposition for mental health problems, I burnt out quickly. I found myself withdrawing from social settings as burnout set in, and the hill was steeply downward from there. When I don't socialize, my ideas stagnate, my work suffers, and my perspective warps until it's easy to submit to delusions like "I am doing great" when really I was (obviously, in retrospect) not doing great at all. * The transition to datascience was on one hand fantastic. I have a structure that (1) forces me to socialize daily, (2) forces me to confront my productivity levels frequently. Even when completely remote these past 9-10 months, I find my productivity is far more consistent than it was in graduate school, and my life is far more sane. I have a true work-life balance that I could only fantasize about before. * The stress is much lower (in my current role). My work no longer defines who I am as a person. Doing what you love sounds great on paper but really what it means are higher highs and lower lows with each small success and failure. While in the beginning of my graduate school experience, I was reasonably well-rounded and rational, as I dived deeper into my own thesis work, I started noticing that I became far less receptive to criticism. My thesis work was so integral to my identity that it became harder and harder to be objective about it. * Financially I am far more secure, and that is incredibly important to me. I'm not earning anywhere near as much as a $500k AI/ML researcher at FAANG, but I'm also not earning a $30k grad student salary or a $50-60k postdoc salary. I can live extremely comfortably while still building a savings (and am no longer in credit card debt). I also can find a job in the location I want. I don't need to write 20 detailed applications (all during "application season") for roles around the world, wait months to hear replies, and then pack my bags to go wherever I'm accepted. That's a hell of a perk. * Like Marcel, however, I do find myself missing many aspects of the world of astrophysics. I miss a community completely made up of people at the top of their professional game, making groundbreaking contributions on existentially important things, where everyone seems to share the same "datascience" mindset. I miss symposiums and lunch talks and people with deep passion for what they do. However I have found it incredibly satisfying to work alongside people with other strengths; programmers, product, designers, and managers. These people may or may not have a deep passion for what they do (for some its a job, for others its a passion), but they all have incredibly valuable expertise to share and perspectives to offer. So in that sense, it's not clear to me which world is better. * As time wears on, I'm finding myself losing some of the knowledge I once had, and that's a bummer. Datascience allows me to keep the statistics channels of my brain somewhat active, but I'm no longer doing things like graphical models and MCMC. I'm trying (slowly) to build a blog where I can do these things as a hobby, but it's difficult to motivate a lot of times; I find that a lot of times it takes me back to the stressful mindset of grad school. I still have three unpublished papers from my graduate school days but the longer time goes, the less of a chance I think these will ever get published, but they stay in their current state because the last time they were touched I was almost losing my mind from stress and I just avoid teleporting myself back to that terrible time. I apologize for the rant but my point is: your mileage may vary; Marcel makes some very good points but consider all the pros and cons for yourself. As someone else commented, a sufficiently motivated data scientist can definitely get back in the academic game (though it will be more challenging).
raziel2701 6y ago
It's a tough one. The problem we haven't solved as a society is what do we do with all these smart people? They need money so they go get a high paying job in finance or tech or consulting and then all that scientific training was kind of left aside right? So what was the point of the PhD? A job with meaning is hard to find, maybe we should encourage and support all these smart people to start a business/research venture? Because it feels wasteful to generate so many PhDs and nothing comes out of it.
- spaced-out 6y ago
  This is a fundamental issue with how our society allocates resources. Companies like Google or Morgan Stanley can hire those people and use those skills to generate something like 1 million dollars per year (look at how much money per employee those companies generate). We don't value academic work anywhere near that much.
- ghaff 6y ago
  >Because it feels wasteful to generate so many PhDs and nothing comes out of it. Well, some research presumably came out of it and the experience of planning and executing that research is presumably at least somewhat transferable to a lot of others tasks. The reality is that a lot of people don't directly use a significant portion of what they learn in school. Even if they got a CS degree and become a developer, there's probably a lot of theoretical CS most won't use outside of interview questions. And many of us have shifted our careers multiple times even if we've stayed loosely adjacent to prior roles.
atemerev 6y ago
Went to the academia this year for the first time after 10 years of working as an infrastructure software engineer in finance. I miss the money, of course, but doing research makes me much happier.
- beezle 6y ago
  From the author's post, I get the feeling basic research and the research environment are what he misses. There is something powerful about contributing to the universal body of knowledge vs say finding patterns in data to help better understand customers. That said, I'm sure there are industries where being a skilled data scientist can augment fundamental r&d work and feel a lot closer to being in academia. One thing he said though I think applies more universally than he thinks: "There is strong competition and people typically experience quite some pressure to achieve." One could say that about positions in sales, trading and even programming. It is hard to stand still these days and not be run out of a job.
antognini 6y ago
I'm another astrophysicist who left academia for industry and this post definitely speaks to me. I wouldn't go so far as to say that I regret my decision to leave academia, but I will admit to wondering what could have been if I had stayed. After getting my PhD I had a postdoc position lined up with a professor I was excited to work with and had won the NSF astronomy & astrophysics postdoctoral fellowship. (It's not the most prestigious fellowship in astronomy, but it's not too far down the list, depending on your sub-field.) My feeling at the time was that I was a good enough researcher that getting postdoc positions probably wouldn't be a problem, so I could stay in the field for another ~6--8 years if I wanted to. And if my research had gone well in those jobs there was a reasonable chance (say, 50-50) that I could get a tenure-track job somewhere. But I wasn't super comfortable with that risk along with having very little freedom as to where I would live. (Having a two-body problem didn't help either.) I also factored in the opportunity cost of staying, say, ~8 years in postdoc roles before switching to industry and figured that if there was a good chance that I was going to leave academia eventually, I should do it sooner rather than later. Part of this was motivated by some researchers I interacted with who were really smart, did great research, but just kept jumping from postdoc to postdoc and couldn't land anything permanent. While I do miss the astro research, I have learned a lot from industry that I would never have even known existed had I stayed in astronomy. (This may be more a function of working at a startup than industry work in general.) I'm not sure what work OP is doing specifically, but the industry work I've been doing has been pretty fulfilling. It helps that I've mostly been working on applying ML to health technology. Industry is a big place! There is a lot of fulfilling work out there even if it can take time to find it.
- analog31 6y ago
  I studied atomic physics, graduated in the early 90s. I was extremely fortunate that both of my parents are industrial scientists (now retired), so I had good role models, and working in industry wasn't a foreign idea for me. I've been in industry for 25+ years, with no regrets. I've told people that there's a good living to be made doing things that other people hate. In my case, I solve hard multidisciplinary problems, usually involving math and sometimes physics. Persuading people to hire me can be tricky, but persuading them to keep me is easy.
bumby 6y ago
This reminds me of a semi-recent Freakanomics podcast where Steve Levitt voiced his disillusionment with academia where you could spend years working on a paper that only gets read by a handful of people. It was contrasted to business applications that can help hundreds or thousands of people. In his words, he had “gotten tired of academic research and decided I should try to do something useful for a while.” Maybe grass is always greener on the other side of the fence or maybe we should be focused on a more balanced approach to our careers.
- borroka 6y ago
  I went to work in tech from academia, but I wanted to publish a paper I had started working on during my last months as a researchers. I worked on it during weekends, sometimes snatching hours from work. I sent it out for peer-review and it was published. One year after publication, it collected the astounding number of exactly zero citations.
  - Ar-Curunir 6y ago
    usually you need to give talks about and more generally publicize your work; if it's interesting people will pick it up, but they need to be aware of it first. Number of citations also depend on the publication venue: better venue => more visibility => more citations.
    - borroka 6y ago
      Yes. I published more than 50 papers before this last one, with wildly variable number of citations.
  - bumby 6y ago
    Don’t feel bad. There’s some research that indicates roughly 70%-80% of publications are either derivative (i.e., not really novel) or only have auto-citations (cited by its own authors)
supernova87a 6y ago
Do I miss quitting astrophysics? Hmm, which do I miss? -- The once-per-year job cycle where if you don't find something you like, you have to wait another year to land your next soft money position? -- The lack of perception of fairness or clear criteria for how the top fellowships are awarded? -- The feeling that you're in an endless apprenticeship model like a pyramid scheme where only by the top people leaving do you get a chance to have some responsibility, better pay, freedom? Hmm. Turns out I don't miss it so much.
- kergonath 6y ago
  It’s funny how you can substitute many research fields instead of “astrophysics”. Well, did I say “funny”? I meant “utterly depressing”. I’m in because I don’t think I would like any other job better, but I have a lot of sympathy for people who flee this broken system.
- supernova87a 6y ago
  Ok, to be fair I will tell you what I do miss: -- Seeing an amazing world I would never have seen through conferences, observing time, telescopes, etc. -- Being able to read what I want, explore what I want, in the hours of the day I want -- Being able to do something to the end, fully and well For sure, sometimes I wish to go back to those positive things. But right now the reasons I left continue to outweigh the reasons to stay/go back.
- rusticpenn 6y ago
  Reminds me of my Engineering PhD/ postdoc.
- fnord77 6y ago
  capitalism doesn't have much use for professions that don't make someone rich
  - godelski 6y ago
    Research has made a lot of people rich and let average people have luxuries of royalty and royalty have what was unimaginable. The problem is the roi takes awhile and people would rather have their marshmallows now than more later. "Capitalism sucks" is just a nothing statement that is politically charged and doesn't approach the nuance of conversation we come to HN for nor is it helpful in finding a real solution to modern problems. It is only social signaling, which is actively discouraged here.
hosh 6y ago
Ikigai: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/chrismyers/2018/02/23/how-to-find-your-ikigai-and-transform-your-outlook-on-life-and-business/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/chrismyers... But I think there is one better: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51947019-the-regenerative-life https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51947019-the-regenerativ... The key thing is (1) finding that within you which you want to contribute to something bigger than you (linking intrinsic motivation and to positive contributions towards society and community) (2) and then, growing the capacity to accomplish it.
SpaceManNabs 6y ago
So far, I don't regret continuing to get my PhD in astrophysics. A lot of my classmates do. Caveat: my background was a lot less privileged than some of my classmates at Peyton and Jadwin hall. You might miss the people involved and the culture, but you can always cultivate and find that somewhere else. And not like you drop all those connections anyways.
minimalist 6y ago
I don't like posting acrimonious comments, but it is hard to find any sympathy for the author. The reasons are similar to the contempt held for people who decry the manipulation of public opinion, while our high-aptitude graduates decide to work for advertisement companies in the Bay Area in chase of the Almighty Dollar. It is sexy and high status, until more people consider the utility (or disutility) that these people bring to society. It sounds like the author is really lamenting a loss of status. I recall a seminar given a few years back by an astronomy PhD graduate who was talking about career prospects outside of academia, and naturally all of them were 'data science' related. The speaker's first remark was something like 'I don't mean to say that data science is just marketing, but...' and then proceed to describe their career as a person 'with statistics and scripting experience'... working in marketing. In journalism, it is said that you can always find employment if you join the dark side, which is public relations. I think less people fool theirself in thinking that PR serves the public interest. We can speculate about why we are hemorrhaging scientists to marketeers, but for the self-interested individual, it's rational. I've always thought that teachers and scientists do not have as high status as they should for the contributions that they provide to society, but perhaps we shouldn't want to attract people to those fields who are in it for the riches and glory.[†] [†] (of course, it's more nuanced than this)
- bumby 6y ago
  I agree with you but think you may be slightly conflating status and pay. They often go hand-in-hand, but there are many times they do not. Capitalism generally pays for one’s contributions to the economy, not their contributions to society.
  - cft 6y ago
    In the USSR for example, scientists often where paid more than CEOs. The end result of that alternative to capitalism was not competitive.
    - bumby 6y ago
      I’m not trying to make an anti-capitalism case. I’m also not an economist but would venture to guess there’s more at play in the c failure of the USSR than pay structure. However, I do think there is room for regulating areas where the incentives of the economy and society are misaligned. What’s best for the economy isn’t always what’s best for society and vice versa. When they are at odds, I would favor some guardrails.
qntmfred 6y ago
I started out as a physics major, but switched to computer science junior year, mostly out of consideration for career prospects. Of my 3 roommates who were also physics majors, all of them finished the degree and all now work in tech. I've said for a long time when I turn 60 I'm going back to physics.
- SiempreViernes 6y ago
  Yeah, there were a few old dudes taking courses with me during my masters, hope they had fun.
kkoncevicius 6y ago
> I can do astro as a hobby, but that simply doesn’t give you enough time to do something substantial enough. I think a better decision, for people in similar circumstances, would be doing corporate data-science as a hobby (via contracting or freelancing) and keeping your full-time astronomy career.
AntiImperialist 6y ago
The reasons for bad feeling including the loss of motivation may have nothing to do with what he thinks it is, either now or back when he quit academia. If he's prone to seasonal affective disorder (SAD), he may be feeling down because of that and taking it out on his career choice. If you are feeling bad about your career, family or life situation, - just buy a SAD lamp such as the Philips Wake Up lamp - use it religiously for a week - after a week, assess the problem again - do you feel the same about it? If you're prone to SAD, after a few days of using, your motivation will come back and the "rational" reasons which you felt very strongly about will lose all emotional charge.
onecommentman 6y ago
If people are reading this article and perhaps considering a serious reassessment of their life, I strongly recommend doing an outreach to those many folks who have made such a move in both directions In particular, to a sample of those who made the move 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago and even longer. Time brings perspective...a 5 year view is different than a 10 year view than is different from a 20 year view. I did a bit flip at around 12 years. Also there are lots of ways to maintain a connection with the academic worldview without being a full-time academic...adjunct, professional societies, journals, online communities, etc. You can eat the food without being a dishwasher.
- SiempreViernes 6y ago
  This post isn't about eating the food, it's about cooking it! And sure, you get to spend time in the kitchen as the server or even the owner, but ultimately only the cook does the work.
firefix 6y ago
> I miss being motivated The author should get back to it. Don’t leave a good thing.
peter303 6y ago
Funny, I have been going in the opposite direction of learning more astrophysics as a retirement hobby. So many university seminars and professional conferences are online now, I practically drown in them. Plus there is so much data online too, and tsunamis of data as the new super telescopes come online. My PhD training in another branch of physics allows me to understand the math and data analysis. What is lacking is a PhD level understanding of the research frontier, i.e. what constitutes a unit of research that is significant and achievable in a publication cycle. That you obtain by apprenticing yourself as a grad student/postdoc in a quality research group.
julienchastang 6y ago
> It seems too late to get back in. It is probably too late to get a tenure (or scientist) track position, but through perseverance I think you can work as a software developer (and probably a bit of a pay cut if you are OK with that) in any number of scientific research institutions (e.g., JPL, any number of FFRDCs). Many of these software engineering jobs have the possibility of working remotely, as well. And your PhD will be a big help if you are applying for NSF, NASA, DOE grants. I work at an atmospheric science research institute and we are in the process of hiring an AI/ML developer. I too prefer the academic / research institute life. I am looking forward to getting back to science conferences when the pandemic is over.
8bitsrule 6y ago
Being gainfully unemployed at a topic doesn't mean you can't stay relatively current with it, these days. Losing the title doesn't strip you of your qualifications or reason. With the right foundation and motivations, the quiet and solitude of being physically apart from it (and the politics) might actually improve your chances of real insight.
dcl 6y ago
> I miss passion and being proud of what I do. The internet says I have ”the sexiest job of the 21st century”, but I think my previous job was more enjoyable to brag about at birthday parties. Hits way too close to home! As a bullshit data scientist, I cry a little inside when people ask me what I do. Whilst I deeply miss academia for the same reasons in that post, I absolutely don't regret leaving. I do however, regret quitting the bank/quant job I got immediately after finishing my PhD. Was far more interesting, challenging, productive and way more useful than the absolute nonsense I typically work on now.
- mateo411 6y ago
  Could you get another bank/quant job?
InfiniteRand 6y ago
I sometimes regret the road not taken with academia (in my case History), but if I am honest with myself given the frequency of mental breakdowns and depression that marked my college years, there’s a good chance that I would have burned out or died. Pursuing financial stability and then a family life has made my mind overall more stable, even if I don’t get the same mental challenges I might otherwise get. And while I might have been able achieve financial security and family life in academia, there is a good chance it would not happen or would come much delayed. Not saying that this is the best of all universes but just saying that the road not travelled isn’t necessarily one that would haven ended in success, even though it’s tempting to think of things in that way.

196 points by petschge 6y ago

hpoe 6y ago

Interesting that the pay difference didn't come up at all. I would've thought that would be a big change from Academia to Business.

klipt 6y ago
If you have to work somewhere like Silicon Valley, a lot of the pay difference might get eaten by housing.
- moreisdiff 6y ago
  To some extent, but as someone who made that transition from 25-40K as a grad student/post-doc to even a modest tech salary in those areas (e.g., 100K), the difference is more than compensated for with rent/mortgages being ~10-20K more expensive. Plus, more and more data teams are now allowing remote work (though, let's see how long that lasts post-2020).
aqme28 6y ago
The pay difference is pretty staggering, but after a certain threshold it stops being a very good motivator.
SiempreViernes 6y ago
It's not that surprising: this is a person that went far into astronomy to start with, that's not something you do chasing riches.

mellosouls 6y ago

Most of the regrets here seem to be about quitting academia or "meaningful" work rather than astrophysics per se. No reason why as a data scientist he can't pivot from financial services into something more research oriented within industry, or back into academia; the pay will likely be much less in the latter case, but the opportunities for work on a more meaningful track with like-minded people will be there.

magneticnorth 6y ago
As another STEM PhD data scientist who is thinking of pivoting back into academia at some point, do you have specific examples of the kinds of jobs that are available that would welcome and benefit from industry DS experience? Perhaps teaching DS or computer science?
- mellosouls 6y ago
  I think that any reputable academic department would welcome industry experience depending on the context; I can't give specific examples without searching (e.g. on portals like academicpositions.com). And certainly teaching with your background sounds like a strong possibility if it appeals. More generally, I would say that the key would be to target roles and teams that cross the boundary between pure research and software engineering, which could vary from straight research software engineer roles - with say, "machine learning" or tech associated with data science (e.g. "jupyter") as an example of what you might search for in key skills and keyword filters; or by generally investigating the support roles within academic institutions because that can be a backdoor way in. Naturally the closer the research to your specific experience the stronger your application would be. One way outside of the normal job search platforms you can identify those gaps is to keep an eye on conferences (especially during the present time while they are online) and the communities they serve and (e.g. if you are a coder) the most widely used code libraries as referenced in academic papers; apart from giving you an idea of where your skills might plug a gap they offer scope for networking in the former case. Sorry to be vague/obvious or responding to a different question, but I don't have specific examples to mind, this is just what I have seen actually working as a strategy into data science-related roles in similar institutions with people without your enhanced qualifications (stem phd and industry data science experience).
  - borroka 6y ago
    There are a few fields in which there is movement academia to industry to academia, that is there is a permeable academia-industry barrier. Say, computer science and adjacent fields, business/economics if we include business schools, medicine, but hospitals can also be research centers. For the vast majority of other fields, if you move to industry, they (academia) are not interested in you anymore. Yes, there are some exceptions like that flight attendant who survived after falling out of the plane at I don't know how many feet of altitude, but in my research field (one the life sciences) I have yet to see someone moving back to academia after having left to go work in industry. First, they (academia) do not want you anymore, you are simply expired. Second, as one faculty when I was a postdoc said: we would like to ask researchers who moved into the private sector how life is out there, but they never came back to tell us. And, I must add, it is easy to guess why: as soon as one gets some distance from the academic world (and I guess, from most worlds, but let's stay focused on academia), they see that when researchers are not making ground-breaking work, they are just doing some work, not better or worse than many others that requires passion and dedication, pay little, and leave you like snow in the summer sun when you are not needed anymore. Recently, someone in academia told me: when you are tired of industry, you can try to get back into academia, maybe as a professor of practice. Like, for 1/3 of the money and 3 times the annoyances? I would much prefer to open a pizzeria and I don't eat pizza.

the_arun 6y ago

I think passion rules everything for most of us - unless we have passion for money :)

Dig1t 6y ago
An interesting comment, sadly I find that most people I know are passionate about money and not much else.
- klipt 6y ago
  Or you can be passionate about giving your family good opportunities (live in a nice area, good education, be able to travel) and having money enables that.

secabeen 6y ago

It was interesting to see the author specifically call out the joys of working in a University environment. It is a unique environment, and working with/for some of the smartest people in the world is a nice perk.

reptation 6y ago

> Being at the forefront of figuring things out about the workings of the Universe is amazing, and unparalleled in any business setting. This is the key attitude to gauging whether it's worth sticking it out in academia. I tell people you really need to be 'obsessed' with science (indeed, obsession is really a key concept: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riaYwt0gf20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riaYwt0gf20). Just being interested in problem-solving isn't close to enough to put up with the low pay and rather tough working conditions. There's lots of interesting problems out there in industry.

skullgrid 6y ago
This is exactly the conclusion that I came to before I also left astrophysics for industry. In order to outweigh all the cons of working in academia, you really have to have a deep passion or obsession with the particular problem you are researching. In my opinion, being _just_ interested is not enough, and that's where I found myself. I drove myself down the academic career path because I thought I would find meaning and purpose there, but when I didn't find it all of the pressures and toxicity of academia just didn't seem worth it. It's only been two years since I left, and sure there are some things that I miss, but I definitely do not regret leaving.

credit_guy 6y ago

I think this guy should stop regretting. He used to do astrophysics and there were things he didn't like about that. He's now doing data science and there are things he doesn't like about this, and looking back (with a bit of rose tinted glasses) at his life 7 years ago, he has regrets. Newsflash: the vast majority of jobs out there are not that fun. That's why you get paid. If they were a lot of fun, you'd be the one who pays, just like you pay when you go to a concert. Some jobs are meaningful. Working for Moderna and making a vaccine that's going to save millions of lives, that's meaningful. Finding a cure for a certain type of cancer, it's meaningful. But saying that astrophysics is meaningful because some internet surveys find it to be "the sexiest job in the world", that's quite shallow. 99.9999% of the jobs out there don't end up with you saving the world. You just do some stuff, get paid for it, and then go home and live your life with your family and friends.

dplavery92 6y ago
>But saying that astrophysics is meaningful because some internet surveys find it to be "the sexiest job in the world", that's quite shallow. To the author's credit, I read that sentence the other way around: the internet deigns "Data Scientist" to be the "sexiest job," but he doesn't feel satisfaction that matches that reputation. >The internet says I have ”the sexiest job of the 21st century”, but I think my previous job was more enjoyable to brag about at birthday parties.

otras 6y ago

This reminds of a colleague's joke: what do you call a physicist a few years after they get their degree? A data scientist! I only completed my undergrad in physics before shifting to tech, but I've seen many instances of people working in software/programming/data science roles after their undergrad/grad studies in physics.

atemerev 6y ago
You also can do quantitative finance!
- supernova87a 6y ago
  What I found, even by the middle 2000s, was that since there were entire grad programs now dedicated to producing quants, someone trying to switch from physics, etc. was already less attractive unless it was a very special company paying attention to the potential of former scientists. The days of a physicist being a top hire for quantitative finance based on potential in a new field, are largely over.
  - kgwgk 6y ago
    And "data science" is not a new field any more. "Data scientists" are now being produced as such.
  - atemerev 6y ago
    Ex-physicists are still welcome. The mathematics involved is similar, and what’s more important, physicists have the right attitude to work as quants. “Hack and approximate until you can solve the seemingly impossible”. Of course, some genuine interest and preliminary exploration of the field are essential for anyone aspiring to work there, physicist or not.

mym1990 6y ago

The mind has a way of tricking us into remembering many of the good things and fewer of the bad ones(or sometimes even rationalizing bad things into good ones). Not to say that the regret here isn't valid, but just to be careful how much stock to put into missing the 'good ole days'. "The people who questioned my decision to become an extronomer were right. I was wrong. It seems too late to get back in." This mindset irks me because this individual strikes me as being bright, talented, curious, and hard working. You are not wrong because you took a leap in life and it didn't work out perfectly, its a valuable learning experience. It is different if you assess the opportunity costs and risks and rewards with going back to astrophysics and decide that it is not worth it and move on...but to say it is 'too late' is you pouting and trying to let yourself down easy.

teachrdan 6y ago
> You are not wrong because you took a leap in life and it didn't work out perfectly, its a valuable learning experience. The author obviously understands this is a learning experience--that's why they wrote the essay in the first place. The challenge is that, on a practical level, starting over will likely take too many years, with too great a risk of not getting a job in academia. This is hardly "pouting and trying to let yourself down easy." It's the disheartening wisdom that sometimes you learn things too late in life to benefit from them.
- mym1990 6y ago
  Starting over? He literally says "I think I have gained skills and experience that can be very valuable to the astronomical community". And that is on top of the foundation that he has already built in his earlier years. Unless there is some glitch where you lose all previous experience in life if you decide to backtrack a bit. I guess ultimately I don't really know what the author's goals would be in academia, and I am not from academia...and that makes it difficult to really explore the situation.
  - SiempreViernes 6y ago
    He's also obviously missed out of a lot of new knowledge that's been produced while he wasn't there, as well as loosing some skills that haven't been used. As for his goals, well most of the article is about the things he's missing so the straightforward guess is to have that back?

LetThereBeLight 6y ago

What the author appears to be describing is the experience of being a PhD student/postdoc that he misses. As faculty you are (usually) no longer running experiments and analyzing data, but managing people/projects, writing/reviewing papers, teaching, sitting on committees, and constantly applying for grants. While it is indeed unlikely he can find a faculty position after 7 years of being out of academia, he may in fact be happier looking for a senior scientist position at a university. As long as he is okay with the salary that is.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

markus_zhang 6y ago

The thing is if you don't quit then there is going to be another post about regretting not quitting. I have gone past the age to feel strongly regret to any choice I made. As long as I made a desicive choice without much delay I'm good with it (of course unless something really bad happens), because I know I'd regret if I choose the other way (or not), anyway.

unemphysbro 6y ago
as much as I dislike the 'the grass is always greener...' cliche, it's fundamentally true. :)
- carabiner 6y ago
  Left a low-paying, stable, very boring non-software engineering job. Working in tech now, good money, but man do I wish for those "boring" days sometimes. It's meetings and craziness every day now, always having to prove myself vs. being a stable cog in a machine. Overall I find that the added money is commensurate with the added stress / life burden.

cbanek 6y ago

Let me just say to all those out there who have left academia and went into industry: academia would be happy to have you back! I went into "academia" (or close to it), doing software engineering for a telescope being built. Astronomers are a great little community out there, and they really need help writing code. A lot of them aren't familiar or have experience with best industry practices that could save them so much time/money/heartache. Bunches of projects are hiring, and if you have creds, and industry experience, that will only increase your value. I'm sure you could find a job at any of the wonderful facilities wherever you want to be around the world! Sometimes you have to look at the grass from the other side to realize it's greener, and that's fine. Some day I may go back to industry and get paid again. But it's all good fun anyway.

gammarator 6y ago
(Obligatory "we're hiring" link): https://www.lsst.org/hiring/ https://www.lsst.org/hiring/
andi999 6y ago
Maybe this is true for your country, but not true here (there is even a limited number of years you are allowed to work in academia by law)
- cbanek 6y ago
  Very interesting, could you tell me where that is? At least in the US, tenure is a really big thing. But there are plenty of people who are paid employees at the university and aren't teaching, and I'd also consider that academia.
  - jacobr1 6y ago
    And I'd love to work assisting cutting-edge research, but I also am not willing to cut my salary that severely. I wonder if there is a way to do this that doesn't presume near-grad-student rates.
    - 6y ago

unemphysbro 6y ago

I'm a new-isly minted biophysics PhD. The reason I got into physics was because it felt fulfilling and my opinion of industry was shaped by a high-school internship at a defense contractor which was a total slog. During my PhD, I got the full experience, drumming up new ideas, grant/proposal writing, managing and setting project goals, maintaining collaborations and doing the actual work. It was fulfilling and fun especially working with great group of people that are 100% dedicated but, boy, was really, really hard. The long hours, terrible pay, and watching people stuck in the post-doc treadmill got to me. Plus, I saw quite a few 2-body problems fall apart (mine included). I also watched my advisor go through the tenure process, it seemed like he never slept. It's been challenging getting into industry (I'm still looking :) ), but, if I make it, I'll write a blog post to see if there are any regrets in 5 years. But, like the author, I'm already missing the culture, going to seminars (the terrible seminar coffee), and nerding out with friends in other disciplines.

ramraj07 6y ago
There will always be regrets, but at least you'll sleep better and rub your tears with Benjamins if you leave academia and regret that :) Academia will always look like the grass is greener "I can do whatever I want" type. But we shouldn't forget actually you can't, you can only do what others think you're good at, and what the grant review panels think you can feasibly do. My plan is to just use the extra money from a tech job to open my garage lab. It's getting easier by the day. A fancy deltavision microscope costs less than a cheap boat, so it's not even an expensive hobby if you think about it. You really can do whatever you want, you'll just be limited by money than by other people :)
- owenversteeg 6y ago
  Just out of curiosity, how much is a fancy deltavision microscope? I very briefly Googled to check and didn't see anything on eBay or other sites. And why not rent time on one? Apparently the University of Arizona (and a number of other universities) rent time on theirs for $25/hr (https://microscopy.arizona.edu/equipment/deltavision-rt-deconvolution-microscope-com https://microscopy.arizona.edu/equipment/deltavision-rt-deco...)

beeforpork 6y ago

You can definitely go back -- academia loves people with industry experience. Few people go back because they typically earn less money in academic jobs. So you now have something academia loves, and there is little competition of other people having that kind of experience.

jrumbut 6y ago
I think what trips people up is that the opportunities to return are not necessarily the same as the ones that you would look for if you were still on the direct path. To start with, if you're tied to an area, you have to start your search with the area and get creative finding the right job title instead of the other way around.

ErikAugust 6y ago

"It seems too late to get back in." The author appears to be alive, and astrophysics still seems to exist. So, what exactly is the problem? I expect wrong answers only.

raziel2701 6y ago
He left in 2013, most postdocs positions have a 5 year cutoff for eligibility. It's been 7 years since he got the degree so a lot of doors have already closed for postdoc opportunities. Professors will find reasons to not hire him such as being out of the game for too long and thus he's not caught up in the literature or whatever. He could try to go in as a data scientist. It is true though that usually that job goes to students because they're cheap and capable, they just take longer. So yeah it's kind of hard to compete against cheap, passionate labor that students provide.
- wolco2 6y ago
  He becomes a student again and takes on a slightly different postdoc if he wants to go back to that level.
  - mattkrause 6y ago
    Fairly few places will let you do (or fund you for) a second PhD.
- mattkrause 6y ago
  I don't even think it's most personal--it's just a lot harder to pay someone who isn't eligible for most fellowships. I have no idea how that blatant age discrimination is legal but....
kill-procrustes 6y ago
There's a line from a show I like: "I figure there are always going to be reasons not to do something. If you really want to do it, then you have to do it." It sound simplistic but honestly, this happens in life. I feel for the author as someone in the same situation (left academia for industry). But at some point it is what it is. You can't change reality. You can't reverse time. So in every moment you just have to decide, "Given the world is this way, what do I want to do?" The world is going to continue on day after day and is not going to stop or fundamentally alter itself to align with your preferences and well-being. All you get is the choice.

jkingsbery 6y ago

> I think I have gained skills and experience that can be very valuable to the astronomical community, but I know that that is simply not what candidates for academic positions are selected on. t seems pretty damning to suggest that a community selects its members based on something other than having "skills and experience that can be very valuable" to that same community. Is that really true? Hopefully we're putting the best people in place for these academic jobs, and not simply the well-connected people who happened to go to the fanciest schools.

petschge 6y ago
You get hired permanently if you excel (or promise to excel) in three categories: 1.) Getting grants 2.) Productive science 3.) Teaching. All the skills that the author has gained might help with #2, but he hasn't actually published in the last years to prove that. And he has nothing to show for #1 and #3. All the while he is much older than other candidates, i.e. the university will get much less use (in particular of the service duties that are fulfilled later in the career) out of him. So why exactly should they hire him over somebody that has gotten a similar amount of experience while doing a postdoc or two and maybe a junior university position, while ALSO improving on grant writing experience and gaining teaching experience?
borroka 6y ago
Just to make an example, politicians are certainly not the best political/organizational minds that one can find in this world. When the results of an activity are nuanced, that is the results are not clearly measurable (revenue, profit, distance, weight, etc. are clear, measurable metrics), the skills of the members of the community are unlikely to be the best one can find. Since most of the research work is inevitably useless, there are reasons for hiring that are other than skills and experience and quality.

sujeetb 6y ago

Slightly related - I’d like to hear from someone who left academia for industry for a ‘research scientist’ role. How does that compare to academia?

aqme28 6y ago

You learned something really important about what you don't like. That's not worth regretting. Get back into academia with newfound commitment. This time you won't be looking over your shoulder wondering if you're missing something in "the real world."

ProAm 6y ago

I wanted to do Astronomy or Astrophysics as a degree/career choice when I was growing up. What changed my mind was every single astronomer or astrophysicist I spoke to about pursuing the career literally told me not to. No jobs, no money, don't do it. Being young and unfamiliar I listened to their advice and went to university for a different career. Academia research seems like a lot of politics and bs to put up with however I think I would have enjoyed that career much more than software development I am in now.

wolco2 6y ago
The recent large group who jump into software after the hype seems like the unhappiest group. I'm just happy I get to see a terminal screen for a living.
ntsplnkv2 6y ago
I've found if you look closely at any job there are huge amounts of negative points of view. Even in software, well paying jobs on here, people dread their work, they work on adtech, don't learn anything, constantly deal with churn and ageism, hate their manager...etc. The fact is everything has its downsides. Industry has just as much politics. The key is to find a balance of what you like doing and your livelihood - sway too far one way, sure, you'll have money, but you'll hate yourself. The other, you won't be able to have an adequate lifestyle, and also hate yourself.

draw_down 6y ago

Do people really go into industry because they’re expecting to enjoy it? I thought it was to get paid. Academics are supposed to like their work more than us industry stiffs, aren’t they? Because if that’s not the case........ what exactly would be the draw?

bartread 6y ago

> On top of that, being geographically bound doesn’t help. I can absolutely believe that this is still an issue, but it's also highly disappointing that's still the case. All your data analysis is done on a computer, and I'd bet that every telescope or instrument you have to interact with is computer controlled and can be worked with remotely with little modification. Yes, astrophysical datasets can be absolutely enormous, and bandwidth can become a serious constraint, but we have solutions to those problems too - that's one of the reason terminal sessions (in their various modern guises) are so powerful. You would think or hope that by the end of 2020 when a global pandemic has taught many of us that, for much of the time, for those of us whose working lives are mostly spent "in computers", we would have learned that geography is not a significant barrier. At least not with decent enough internet connectivity. Again, sadly, I'm not surprised to see that in certain circles it is still an issue. It's a cultural change, and those can take an awfully long time to work themselves out.

SiempreViernes 6y ago
Uh, the point is that currently all the people, and students, and facilities of a university is physically located at a certain spot, not about where the telescopes or data centres lie (telescopes that lie on campus aren't very useful anyway due to all the light pollution and bad weather).

astrophysician 6y ago

As another former astrophysicist-turned-datascientist (though with only 2 years after the transition instead of Marcel's 7), this hits close to home, but my experience in both worlds I think is a bit different. If you are an astrophysicist curious about moving into the datascience profession, I would just like to point out that satisfaction with a move like that depends on a large number of factors, and that you should consider not only Marcel's experiences (which I think are important and shared by many) but your own personal circumstances. There are pro's and con's for every person. Let me offer another datapoint: * I left after my PhD, which ended absolutely terribly. I knew years before finishing that I was just not cut out for a life in academia, and positioned myself in the best way I knew how for a life in industry, but I did not anticipate just how truly painful the experience would be. I stayed to finish my PhD out of a nagging obligation to follow through with a lifelong dream of mine. I thought I would deeply regret leaving after receiving my masters degree. Whether or not that is true, I really don't (and will never) know. But I was not happy. * My personal reasons for unhappiness are not uncommon but are definitely not universal. I did not excel at the entrepreneurial and social aspects of astrophysics that are crucial for success. Without strong social and professional ties to close collaborators within the community, and without an innate ability to thrive in an environment with very little structure, add to that a predisposition for mental health problems, I burnt out quickly. I found myself withdrawing from social settings as burnout set in, and the hill was steeply downward from there. When I don't socialize, my ideas stagnate, my work suffers, and my perspective warps until it's easy to submit to delusions like "I am doing great" when really I was (obviously, in retrospect) not doing great at all. * The transition to datascience was on one hand fantastic. I have a structure that (1) forces me to socialize daily, (2) forces me to confront my productivity levels frequently. Even when completely remote these past 9-10 months, I find my productivity is far more consistent than it was in graduate school, and my life is far more sane. I have a true work-life balance that I could only fantasize about before. * The stress is much lower (in my current role). My work no longer defines who I am as a person. Doing what you love sounds great on paper but really what it means are higher highs and lower lows with each small success and failure. While in the beginning of my graduate school experience, I was reasonably well-rounded and rational, as I dived deeper into my own thesis work, I started noticing that I became far less receptive to criticism. My thesis work was so integral to my identity that it became harder and harder to be objective about it. * Financially I am far more secure, and that is incredibly important to me. I'm not earning anywhere near as much as a $500k AI/ML researcher at FAANG, but I'm also not earning a $30k grad student salary or a $50-60k postdoc salary. I can live extremely comfortably while still building a savings (and am no longer in credit card debt). I also can find a job in the location I want. I don't need to write 20 detailed applications (all during "application season") for roles around the world, wait months to hear replies, and then pack my bags to go wherever I'm accepted. That's a hell of a perk. * Like Marcel, however, I do find myself missing many aspects of the world of astrophysics. I miss a community completely made up of people at the top of their professional game, making groundbreaking contributions on existentially important things, where everyone seems to share the same "datascience" mindset. I miss symposiums and lunch talks and people with deep passion for what they do. However I have found it incredibly satisfying to work alongside people with other strengths; programmers, product, designers, and managers. These people may or may not have a deep passion for what they do (for some its a job, for others its a passion), but they all have incredibly valuable expertise to share and perspectives to offer. So in that sense, it's not clear to me which world is better. * As time wears on, I'm finding myself losing some of the knowledge I once had, and that's a bummer. Datascience allows me to keep the statistics channels of my brain somewhat active, but I'm no longer doing things like graphical models and MCMC. I'm trying (slowly) to build a blog where I can do these things as a hobby, but it's difficult to motivate a lot of times; I find that a lot of times it takes me back to the stressful mindset of grad school. I still have three unpublished papers from my graduate school days but the longer time goes, the less of a chance I think these will ever get published, but they stay in their current state because the last time they were touched I was almost losing my mind from stress and I just avoid teleporting myself back to that terrible time. I apologize for the rant but my point is: your mileage may vary; Marcel makes some very good points but consider all the pros and cons for yourself. As someone else commented, a sufficiently motivated data scientist can definitely get back in the academic game (though it will be more challenging).

raziel2701 6y ago

It's a tough one. The problem we haven't solved as a society is what do we do with all these smart people? They need money so they go get a high paying job in finance or tech or consulting and then all that scientific training was kind of left aside right? So what was the point of the PhD? A job with meaning is hard to find, maybe we should encourage and support all these smart people to start a business/research venture? Because it feels wasteful to generate so many PhDs and nothing comes out of it.

spaced-out 6y ago
This is a fundamental issue with how our society allocates resources. Companies like Google or Morgan Stanley can hire those people and use those skills to generate something like 1 million dollars per year (look at how much money per employee those companies generate). We don't value academic work anywhere near that much.
ghaff 6y ago
>Because it feels wasteful to generate so many PhDs and nothing comes out of it. Well, some research presumably came out of it and the experience of planning and executing that research is presumably at least somewhat transferable to a lot of others tasks. The reality is that a lot of people don't directly use a significant portion of what they learn in school. Even if they got a CS degree and become a developer, there's probably a lot of theoretical CS most won't use outside of interview questions. And many of us have shifted our careers multiple times even if we've stayed loosely adjacent to prior roles.

atemerev 6y ago

Went to the academia this year for the first time after 10 years of working as an infrastructure software engineer in finance. I miss the money, of course, but doing research makes me much happier.

beezle 6y ago
From the author's post, I get the feeling basic research and the research environment are what he misses. There is something powerful about contributing to the universal body of knowledge vs say finding patterns in data to help better understand customers. That said, I'm sure there are industries where being a skilled data scientist can augment fundamental r&d work and feel a lot closer to being in academia. One thing he said though I think applies more universally than he thinks: "There is strong competition and people typically experience quite some pressure to achieve." One could say that about positions in sales, trading and even programming. It is hard to stand still these days and not be run out of a job.

antognini 6y ago

I'm another astrophysicist who left academia for industry and this post definitely speaks to me. I wouldn't go so far as to say that I regret my decision to leave academia, but I will admit to wondering what could have been if I had stayed. After getting my PhD I had a postdoc position lined up with a professor I was excited to work with and had won the NSF astronomy & astrophysics postdoctoral fellowship. (It's not the most prestigious fellowship in astronomy, but it's not too far down the list, depending on your sub-field.) My feeling at the time was that I was a good enough researcher that getting postdoc positions probably wouldn't be a problem, so I could stay in the field for another ~6--8 years if I wanted to. And if my research had gone well in those jobs there was a reasonable chance (say, 50-50) that I could get a tenure-track job somewhere. But I wasn't super comfortable with that risk along with having very little freedom as to where I would live. (Having a two-body problem didn't help either.) I also factored in the opportunity cost of staying, say, ~8 years in postdoc roles before switching to industry and figured that if there was a good chance that I was going to leave academia eventually, I should do it sooner rather than later. Part of this was motivated by some researchers I interacted with who were really smart, did great research, but just kept jumping from postdoc to postdoc and couldn't land anything permanent. While I do miss the astro research, I have learned a lot from industry that I would never have even known existed had I stayed in astronomy. (This may be more a function of working at a startup than industry work in general.) I'm not sure what work OP is doing specifically, but the industry work I've been doing has been pretty fulfilling. It helps that I've mostly been working on applying ML to health technology. Industry is a big place! There is a lot of fulfilling work out there even if it can take time to find it.

analog31 6y ago
I studied atomic physics, graduated in the early 90s. I was extremely fortunate that both of my parents are industrial scientists (now retired), so I had good role models, and working in industry wasn't a foreign idea for me. I've been in industry for 25+ years, with no regrets. I've told people that there's a good living to be made doing things that other people hate. In my case, I solve hard multidisciplinary problems, usually involving math and sometimes physics. Persuading people to hire me can be tricky, but persuading them to keep me is easy.

bumby 6y ago

This reminds me of a semi-recent Freakanomics podcast where Steve Levitt voiced his disillusionment with academia where you could spend years working on a paper that only gets read by a handful of people. It was contrasted to business applications that can help hundreds or thousands of people. In his words, he had “gotten tired of academic research and decided I should try to do something useful for a while.” Maybe grass is always greener on the other side of the fence or maybe we should be focused on a more balanced approach to our careers.

borroka 6y ago
I went to work in tech from academia, but I wanted to publish a paper I had started working on during my last months as a researchers. I worked on it during weekends, sometimes snatching hours from work. I sent it out for peer-review and it was published. One year after publication, it collected the astounding number of exactly zero citations.
- Ar-Curunir 6y ago
  usually you need to give talks about and more generally publicize your work; if it's interesting people will pick it up, but they need to be aware of it first. Number of citations also depend on the publication venue: better venue => more visibility => more citations.
  - borroka 6y ago
    Yes. I published more than 50 papers before this last one, with wildly variable number of citations.
- bumby 6y ago
  Don’t feel bad. There’s some research that indicates roughly 70%-80% of publications are either derivative (i.e., not really novel) or only have auto-citations (cited by its own authors)

supernova87a 6y ago

Do I miss quitting astrophysics? Hmm, which do I miss? -- The once-per-year job cycle where if you don't find something you like, you have to wait another year to land your next soft money position? -- The lack of perception of fairness or clear criteria for how the top fellowships are awarded? -- The feeling that you're in an endless apprenticeship model like a pyramid scheme where only by the top people leaving do you get a chance to have some responsibility, better pay, freedom? Hmm. Turns out I don't miss it so much.

kergonath 6y ago
It’s funny how you can substitute many research fields instead of “astrophysics”. Well, did I say “funny”? I meant “utterly depressing”. I’m in because I don’t think I would like any other job better, but I have a lot of sympathy for people who flee this broken system.
supernova87a 6y ago
Ok, to be fair I will tell you what I do miss: -- Seeing an amazing world I would never have seen through conferences, observing time, telescopes, etc. -- Being able to read what I want, explore what I want, in the hours of the day I want -- Being able to do something to the end, fully and well For sure, sometimes I wish to go back to those positive things. But right now the reasons I left continue to outweigh the reasons to stay/go back.
rusticpenn 6y ago
Reminds me of my Engineering PhD/ postdoc.
fnord77 6y ago
capitalism doesn't have much use for professions that don't make someone rich
- godelski 6y ago
  Research has made a lot of people rich and let average people have luxuries of royalty and royalty have what was unimaginable. The problem is the roi takes awhile and people would rather have their marshmallows now than more later. "Capitalism sucks" is just a nothing statement that is politically charged and doesn't approach the nuance of conversation we come to HN for nor is it helpful in finding a real solution to modern problems. It is only social signaling, which is actively discouraged here.

hosh 6y ago

Ikigai: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/chrismyers/2018/02/23/how-to-find-your-ikigai-and-transform-your-outlook-on-life-and-business/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/chrismyers... But I think there is one better: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51947019-the-regenerative-life https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51947019-the-regenerativ... The key thing is (1) finding that within you which you want to contribute to something bigger than you (linking intrinsic motivation and to positive contributions towards society and community) (2) and then, growing the capacity to accomplish it.

SpaceManNabs 6y ago

So far, I don't regret continuing to get my PhD in astrophysics. A lot of my classmates do. Caveat: my background was a lot less privileged than some of my classmates at Peyton and Jadwin hall. You might miss the people involved and the culture, but you can always cultivate and find that somewhere else. And not like you drop all those connections anyways.

minimalist 6y ago

I don't like posting acrimonious comments, but it is hard to find any sympathy for the author. The reasons are similar to the contempt held for people who decry the manipulation of public opinion, while our high-aptitude graduates decide to work for advertisement companies in the Bay Area in chase of the Almighty Dollar. It is sexy and high status, until more people consider the utility (or disutility) that these people bring to society. It sounds like the author is really lamenting a loss of status. I recall a seminar given a few years back by an astronomy PhD graduate who was talking about career prospects outside of academia, and naturally all of them were 'data science' related. The speaker's first remark was something like 'I don't mean to say that data science is just marketing, but...' and then proceed to describe their career as a person 'with statistics and scripting experience'... working in marketing. In journalism, it is said that you can always find employment if you join the dark side, which is public relations. I think less people fool theirself in thinking that PR serves the public interest. We can speculate about why we are hemorrhaging scientists to marketeers, but for the self-interested individual, it's rational. I've always thought that teachers and scientists do not have as high status as they should for the contributions that they provide to society, but perhaps we shouldn't want to attract people to those fields who are in it for the riches and glory.[†] [†] (of course, it's more nuanced than this)

bumby 6y ago
I agree with you but think you may be slightly conflating status and pay. They often go hand-in-hand, but there are many times they do not. Capitalism generally pays for one’s contributions to the economy, not their contributions to society.
- cft 6y ago
  In the USSR for example, scientists often where paid more than CEOs. The end result of that alternative to capitalism was not competitive.
  - bumby 6y ago
    I’m not trying to make an anti-capitalism case. I’m also not an economist but would venture to guess there’s more at play in the c failure of the USSR than pay structure. However, I do think there is room for regulating areas where the incentives of the economy and society are misaligned. What’s best for the economy isn’t always what’s best for society and vice versa. When they are at odds, I would favor some guardrails.

qntmfred 6y ago

I started out as a physics major, but switched to computer science junior year, mostly out of consideration for career prospects. Of my 3 roommates who were also physics majors, all of them finished the degree and all now work in tech. I've said for a long time when I turn 60 I'm going back to physics.

SiempreViernes 6y ago
Yeah, there were a few old dudes taking courses with me during my masters, hope they had fun.

kkoncevicius 6y ago

> I can do astro as a hobby, but that simply doesn’t give you enough time to do something substantial enough. I think a better decision, for people in similar circumstances, would be doing corporate data-science as a hobby (via contracting or freelancing) and keeping your full-time astronomy career.

AntiImperialist 6y ago

The reasons for bad feeling including the loss of motivation may have nothing to do with what he thinks it is, either now or back when he quit academia. If he's prone to seasonal affective disorder (SAD), he may be feeling down because of that and taking it out on his career choice. If you are feeling bad about your career, family or life situation, - just buy a SAD lamp such as the Philips Wake Up lamp - use it religiously for a week - after a week, assess the problem again - do you feel the same about it? If you're prone to SAD, after a few days of using, your motivation will come back and the "rational" reasons which you felt very strongly about will lose all emotional charge.

onecommentman 6y ago

If people are reading this article and perhaps considering a serious reassessment of their life, I strongly recommend doing an outreach to those many folks who have made such a move in both directions In particular, to a sample of those who made the move 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago and even longer. Time brings perspective...a 5 year view is different than a 10 year view than is different from a 20 year view. I did a bit flip at around 12 years. Also there are lots of ways to maintain a connection with the academic worldview without being a full-time academic...adjunct, professional societies, journals, online communities, etc. You can eat the food without being a dishwasher.

SiempreViernes 6y ago
This post isn't about eating the food, it's about cooking it! And sure, you get to spend time in the kitchen as the server or even the owner, but ultimately only the cook does the work.

firefix 6y ago

> I miss being motivated The author should get back to it. Don’t leave a good thing.

peter303 6y ago

Funny, I have been going in the opposite direction of learning more astrophysics as a retirement hobby. So many university seminars and professional conferences are online now, I practically drown in them. Plus there is so much data online too, and tsunamis of data as the new super telescopes come online. My PhD training in another branch of physics allows me to understand the math and data analysis. What is lacking is a PhD level understanding of the research frontier, i.e. what constitutes a unit of research that is significant and achievable in a publication cycle. That you obtain by apprenticing yourself as a grad student/postdoc in a quality research group.

julienchastang 6y ago

> It seems too late to get back in. It is probably too late to get a tenure (or scientist) track position, but through perseverance I think you can work as a software developer (and probably a bit of a pay cut if you are OK with that) in any number of scientific research institutions (e.g., JPL, any number of FFRDCs). Many of these software engineering jobs have the possibility of working remotely, as well. And your PhD will be a big help if you are applying for NSF, NASA, DOE grants. I work at an atmospheric science research institute and we are in the process of hiring an AI/ML developer. I too prefer the academic / research institute life. I am looking forward to getting back to science conferences when the pandemic is over.

8bitsrule 6y ago

Being gainfully unemployed at a topic doesn't mean you can't stay relatively current with it, these days. Losing the title doesn't strip you of your qualifications or reason. With the right foundation and motivations, the quiet and solitude of being physically apart from it (and the politics) might actually improve your chances of real insight.

dcl 6y ago

> I miss passion and being proud of what I do. The internet says I have ”the sexiest job of the 21st century”, but I think my previous job was more enjoyable to brag about at birthday parties. Hits way too close to home! As a bullshit data scientist, I cry a little inside when people ask me what I do. Whilst I deeply miss academia for the same reasons in that post, I absolutely don't regret leaving. I do however, regret quitting the bank/quant job I got immediately after finishing my PhD. Was far more interesting, challenging, productive and way more useful than the absolute nonsense I typically work on now.

mateo411 6y ago
Could you get another bank/quant job?

InfiniteRand 6y ago

I sometimes regret the road not taken with academia (in my case History), but if I am honest with myself given the frequency of mental breakdowns and depression that marked my college years, there’s a good chance that I would have burned out or died. Pursuing financial stability and then a family life has made my mind overall more stable, even if I don’t get the same mental challenges I might otherwise get. And while I might have been able achieve financial security and family life in academia, there is a good chance it would not happen or would come much delayed. Not saying that this is the best of all universes but just saying that the road not travelled isn’t necessarily one that would haven ended in success, even though it’s tempting to think of things in that way.