6 ms·

> 3. Invest more in Thunderbird the application and develop Thunderbird the privacy focus email service for independent professionals and small businesses. I k

> 3. Invest more in Thunderbird the application and develop Thunderbird the privacy focus email service for independent professionals and small businesses. I know Mozilla's non-Firefox projects aren't popular here, but if Thunderbird really wanted a niche in the business world Mozilla would need to start an email service to go with it. The age of non-integrated email clients for the average user ended a while ago.

GordonS 6y ago
I think you're spot on here. The only people using desktop mail clients are techies with multiple accounts (such as us HN users), and business users (who all use Outlook).
- dsr_ 6y ago
  Half of my sales group thinks that the name of our email service is Thunderbird.
- lostmsu 6y ago
  I am not so sure. Windows default Mail app has multiple account support quite visible.
  - GordonS 6y ago
    Huh, I've been using Windows forever, and didn't know that!
- dkarl 6y ago
  As a counterpoint, the non-techies in my family have become so used to the iPhone and iPad mail client that they look for (and find, and use) the desktop mail client on their Macs. Even my mom knows she has to "find the mail and give it my GMail" when she gets a new device.
yabatopia 6y ago
Agree. Mozilla should focus more on online services, nicely integrated in the browser. Online email, password management, vpn services, file storage and sharing, ... All privacy focused and with paid offerings, to make them more independent from Google.
- hedora 6y ago
  They wouldn't even need to provide these services themselves. They could act as independent auditors in exchange for revenue (as they do for search).
gravitas 6y ago
I disagree - the feature they need is better calendar integration with Exchange based services and the Exchange address book (GAL). As a corporate user this is the Achilles heel and always has been for 20 years, like it or not Exchange is king of the hill in large sprawling companies and Thunderbird has always left it to 3rd party add-ons (some of which they just killed due to the extension redesign) to try and handle.
- spacechild1 6y ago
  I recently had to buy an such an add-on (Owl), because my umiversity's IT department killed IMAP support and only offers Exchange (which is stupid, but what can you do?).
  - gravitas 6y ago
    Solutions like Owl are actually kind of nice, I have been using a similar one on my phone (AquaMail) for many years and it's worked out great. Thanks for the tip, might give it a shot - I see it's by the same author as ExQuilla which has been around for awhile as well.
falcolas 6y ago
> The age of non-integrated email clients for the average user ended a while ago. As someone currently beta testing Mimestream (3rd party Gmail desktop client for Mac), I couldn't disagree more. A good UI and a responsive interface makes an absolute world of difference. Gmail's web interface isn't bad, but a desktop client is just so much better to use.
- dash2 6y ago
  But that is a "Gmail desktop client". So, it's integrated with Gmail. I use Kiwi for Gmail - same thing.
  - falcolas 6y ago
    Yes, it is integrated with Google, in that it uses the Google API. However, relevant to this thread, it's not developed by Google, as Thunderbird would not be. And so Thunderbird could still provide value as such a client.
    - buran77 6y ago
      > for the average user I think this was the key. No average user I know uses an email client on their PC, outside of the corporate one. It's one more thing to take care of and average users rarely want that. It's easier on mobile where people are used with the "app" concept, not really on the PC. This is one reason why Thunderbird doesn't enjoy the kind of popularity browser based email does.
      - trinix912 6y ago
        I know quite a few (older) people who are familiar with Thunerbird and use it instead of the web interface. None of them is particularly tech savvy.
        buran77 6y ago
        Of course it's not impossible. But also they must be tech savvy enough to go look for an email client where they already had the usual web interface, get to testing a few and settle on Thunderbird, then configure and stick with it. But that obviously it doesn't happen that often or else Thunderbird would boast a lot more users than it actually does. Relatively few users use it at all, and it's a reasonable assumption that the usage is higher among the more tech savvy than the average user.
Zelphyr 6y ago
Very much this. Gmail (well, all of Google properties anymore) is pretty terrible from a UI perspective. Not to mention the abject privacy considerations with anything Google related. I would love for Mozilla to start a competing email service that focused on performance, UI, privacy and integrated well with not only Thunderbird but other desktop mail clients.
raxxorrax 6y ago
In my experience, the vast majority of corporate is hooked on Outlook, which is actually quite unreliable in its 365 version and constantly has annoying bugs and performance issues. It still might be a good idea to host an e-Mail service or create an Exchange pendant. I often wonder why there never has been a popular open pendant to domain controllers in Windows. I think there were multiple attempts, but I don't think anything really caught on.
- ska 6y ago
  I suspect corporate is hooked on exchange, not outlook. Outlook 365 just goes along for the ride.
  - buran77 6y ago
    What many don't realize is the reason open/free software doesn't easily make it in the corporate zone is that there's no company behind them to put their name behind an SLA. This and integration with the ecosystem (MS has an easier time selling Windows+365+Exchange+cloudstuff). The jump from "providing an email client" to "providing a privacy focus email service for independent professionals and small businesses" is already quite large. Being able to sell that by giving some guarantees (in signed SLA form) is yet another jump on an entirely different scale.
    - MattGaiser 6y ago
      Or just nobody to write the RFP. So many ways of doing business assume that something will be purchased.
      - buran77 6y ago
        > Or just nobody to write the RFP Then look no further than public institutions, where (leaving everything else aside) almost every tender is public [0]. You'll never see Thunderbird in any of the submitted bids because there's no company behind it to write the bid and put its weight behind it. It's a good canary to see if a service or product has anyone capable of supporting it, or if it can be monetized in any way. This doesn't have to be the developer, just any company that can realistically push it into the corporate world. [0] https://ted.europa.eu/TED/main/HomePage.do https://ted.europa.eu/TED/main/HomePage.do
levosmetalo 6y ago
I would use Thunderbird in a heartbeat at my current job if it could seamlessly connect to Exchange.
- phkahler 6y ago
  Even Microsoft seems to be moving to the cloud, but your point has been valid for a very long time.
  - ComputerGuru 6y ago
    That’s an orthogonal issue as Microsoft’s cloud email offering is still (a version of) Exchange and supports MAPI/EAS all the same.
- abdullahkhalids 6y ago
  Besides this rather serious bug, which does not allow you to accept Exchange meeting invites from within Thunderbird [1], everything else works perfectly with this extension. [1] https://github.com/jobisoft/TbSync/issues/54 https://github.com/jobisoft/TbSync/issues/54
dvdkon 6y ago
If standalone email clients really are dead for the average user, that to me would suggest Thunderbird should focus on power-users and/or corporate deployments, not that it should shift its focus to being part of yet another "service". It's perfectly fine to make a product with an audience that isn't everyone on Earth.
andi999 6y ago
It should to treat special characters first (somehow cannot search for ä,ö,ü)
- dvdkon 6y ago
  It might be because it's searching using the IMAP server, for some reason those can't often deal with non-ASCII characters. Searching with diacritics seems to work for me in locally-downloaded folders.
  - colejohnson66 6y ago
    Well, wasn’t email designed in a time when the only supported standards were everyone’s form of Extended ASCII? So it would make sense that IMAP only supports ASCII. Heck, attachments are encoded in some base## form before being sent because the entire standard is based on text.
    - andi999 6y ago
      Here I like to quote my favorite penguin:"don't give me excuses, give me results". MS products somehow can do it, and it is a big showstopper dor adaptation in (a lot of) countries with special characters if you cannot search for the product name/customer name/project. (But maybe I remember wronfly and MS also cannot do with IMAP, so exchange it is)
  - andi999 6y ago
    Outlook manages to do that even with IMAP server (at least if I do not remember wrongly)
edgyquant 6y ago
Thunderbird stopped being a Mozilla project a couple years ago

GordonS 6y ago

I think you're spot on here. The only people using desktop mail clients are techies with multiple accounts (such as us HN users), and business users (who all use Outlook).

dsr_ 6y ago
Half of my sales group thinks that the name of our email service is Thunderbird.
lostmsu 6y ago
I am not so sure. Windows default Mail app has multiple account support quite visible.
- GordonS 6y ago
  Huh, I've been using Windows forever, and didn't know that!
dkarl 6y ago
As a counterpoint, the non-techies in my family have become so used to the iPhone and iPad mail client that they look for (and find, and use) the desktop mail client on their Macs. Even my mom knows she has to "find the mail and give it my GMail" when she gets a new device.

yabatopia 6y ago

Agree. Mozilla should focus more on online services, nicely integrated in the browser. Online email, password management, vpn services, file storage and sharing, ... All privacy focused and with paid offerings, to make them more independent from Google.

hedora 6y ago
They wouldn't even need to provide these services themselves. They could act as independent auditors in exchange for revenue (as they do for search).

gravitas 6y ago

I disagree - the feature they need is better calendar integration with Exchange based services and the Exchange address book (GAL). As a corporate user this is the Achilles heel and always has been for 20 years, like it or not Exchange is king of the hill in large sprawling companies and Thunderbird has always left it to 3rd party add-ons (some of which they just killed due to the extension redesign) to try and handle.

spacechild1 6y ago
I recently had to buy an such an add-on (Owl), because my umiversity's IT department killed IMAP support and only offers Exchange (which is stupid, but what can you do?).
- gravitas 6y ago
  Solutions like Owl are actually kind of nice, I have been using a similar one on my phone (AquaMail) for many years and it's worked out great. Thanks for the tip, might give it a shot - I see it's by the same author as ExQuilla which has been around for awhile as well.

falcolas 6y ago

> The age of non-integrated email clients for the average user ended a while ago. As someone currently beta testing Mimestream (3rd party Gmail desktop client for Mac), I couldn't disagree more. A good UI and a responsive interface makes an absolute world of difference. Gmail's web interface isn't bad, but a desktop client is just so much better to use.

dash2 6y ago
But that is a "Gmail desktop client". So, it's integrated with Gmail. I use Kiwi for Gmail - same thing.
- falcolas 6y ago
  Yes, it is integrated with Google, in that it uses the Google API. However, relevant to this thread, it's not developed by Google, as Thunderbird would not be. And so Thunderbird could still provide value as such a client.
  - buran77 6y ago
    > for the average user I think this was the key. No average user I know uses an email client on their PC, outside of the corporate one. It's one more thing to take care of and average users rarely want that. It's easier on mobile where people are used with the "app" concept, not really on the PC. This is one reason why Thunderbird doesn't enjoy the kind of popularity browser based email does.
    - trinix912 6y ago
      I know quite a few (older) people who are familiar with Thunerbird and use it instead of the web interface. None of them is particularly tech savvy.
      - buran77 6y ago
        Of course it's not impossible. But also they must be tech savvy enough to go look for an email client where they already had the usual web interface, get to testing a few and settle on Thunderbird, then configure and stick with it. But that obviously it doesn't happen that often or else Thunderbird would boast a lot more users than it actually does. Relatively few users use it at all, and it's a reasonable assumption that the usage is higher among the more tech savvy than the average user.

Zelphyr 6y ago

Very much this. Gmail (well, all of Google properties anymore) is pretty terrible from a UI perspective. Not to mention the abject privacy considerations with anything Google related. I would love for Mozilla to start a competing email service that focused on performance, UI, privacy and integrated well with not only Thunderbird but other desktop mail clients.

raxxorrax 6y ago

In my experience, the vast majority of corporate is hooked on Outlook, which is actually quite unreliable in its 365 version and constantly has annoying bugs and performance issues. It still might be a good idea to host an e-Mail service or create an Exchange pendant. I often wonder why there never has been a popular open pendant to domain controllers in Windows. I think there were multiple attempts, but I don't think anything really caught on.

ska 6y ago
I suspect corporate is hooked on exchange, not outlook. Outlook 365 just goes along for the ride.
- buran77 6y ago
  What many don't realize is the reason open/free software doesn't easily make it in the corporate zone is that there's no company behind them to put their name behind an SLA. This and integration with the ecosystem (MS has an easier time selling Windows+365+Exchange+cloudstuff). The jump from "providing an email client" to "providing a privacy focus email service for independent professionals and small businesses" is already quite large. Being able to sell that by giving some guarantees (in signed SLA form) is yet another jump on an entirely different scale.
  - MattGaiser 6y ago
    Or just nobody to write the RFP. So many ways of doing business assume that something will be purchased.
    - buran77 6y ago
      > Or just nobody to write the RFP Then look no further than public institutions, where (leaving everything else aside) almost every tender is public [0]. You'll never see Thunderbird in any of the submitted bids because there's no company behind it to write the bid and put its weight behind it. It's a good canary to see if a service or product has anyone capable of supporting it, or if it can be monetized in any way. This doesn't have to be the developer, just any company that can realistically push it into the corporate world. [0] https://ted.europa.eu/TED/main/HomePage.do https://ted.europa.eu/TED/main/HomePage.do

levosmetalo 6y ago

I would use Thunderbird in a heartbeat at my current job if it could seamlessly connect to Exchange.

phkahler 6y ago
Even Microsoft seems to be moving to the cloud, but your point has been valid for a very long time.
- ComputerGuru 6y ago
  That’s an orthogonal issue as Microsoft’s cloud email offering is still (a version of) Exchange and supports MAPI/EAS all the same.
abdullahkhalids 6y ago
Besides this rather serious bug, which does not allow you to accept Exchange meeting invites from within Thunderbird [1], everything else works perfectly with this extension. [1] https://github.com/jobisoft/TbSync/issues/54 https://github.com/jobisoft/TbSync/issues/54

dvdkon 6y ago

If standalone email clients really are dead for the average user, that to me would suggest Thunderbird should focus on power-users and/or corporate deployments, not that it should shift its focus to being part of yet another "service". It's perfectly fine to make a product with an audience that isn't everyone on Earth.

andi999 6y ago

It should to treat special characters first (somehow cannot search for ä,ö,ü)

dvdkon 6y ago
It might be because it's searching using the IMAP server, for some reason those can't often deal with non-ASCII characters. Searching with diacritics seems to work for me in locally-downloaded folders.
- colejohnson66 6y ago
  Well, wasn’t email designed in a time when the only supported standards were everyone’s form of Extended ASCII? So it would make sense that IMAP only supports ASCII. Heck, attachments are encoded in some base## form before being sent because the entire standard is based on text.
  - andi999 6y ago
    Here I like to quote my favorite penguin:"don't give me excuses, give me results". MS products somehow can do it, and it is a big showstopper dor adaptation in (a lot of) countries with special characters if you cannot search for the product name/customer name/project. (But maybe I remember wronfly and MS also cannot do with IMAP, so exchange it is)
- andi999 6y ago
  Outlook manages to do that even with IMAP server (at least if I do not remember wrongly)

edgyquant 6y ago

Thunderbird stopped being a Mozilla project a couple years ago