5 ms·

Treasure hunter in jail for 5 years

41 points by erentz 6y ago

csours 6y ago
It's worse than jailed for 5 years; there's no real time limit to contempt of court. His sentence was for 2 years, but he has not yet begun that sentence as he is being held in contempt until he provides the location
- ed25519FUUU 6y ago
  At the end of this he’ll probably be rich, but from a lawsuit against the state, not gold coins.
  - chmod775 6y ago
    He's 68. He probably won't live to see the end of any such lawsuit.
Waterluvian 6y ago
So if he truly doesn't know does he just stay in prison for life? One of my biggest irrational fears is someone awful being convinced that I know something they need.
- Analemma_ 6y ago
  > Thompson hasn't just refused to answer questions, the court ruled: He's also violated the requirement that he "assist" the parties by refusing to execute a limited power of attorney to allow that Belizean trust [which Thompsons says owns the coins] to be examined, as required under his plea deal. It's pretty clear this isn't a case of forgetting. Courts are not as stupid and gullible as tech people sometimes like to pretend.
  - emilfihlman 6y ago
    You are entirely missing the point. He could be co-operating just fine but if the judge decides "we don't believe you" that's it.
    - simonh 6y ago
      This went to appeal and his appeal was rejected in precisely this point. He is not cooperating. It’s not just about him refusing to give information, he’s also refusing to perform actions required by the court, specifically exercising his power of attorney.
      - Waterluvian 6y ago
        Interesting that a court with the power to imprison him indefinitely lacks the power to just kind of invoke power of attorney.
        staticman2 6y ago
        The power of attorney is for another country where the court has no jurisdiction.
      - emilfihlman 6y ago
        Isn't there a self discrimination protection clause? Ie you can't be compelled to disclose information that would discriminate you?
    - darkerside 6y ago
      No, he's refusing to cooperate by signing the LPOA
      - emilfihlman 6y ago
        You are _missing the point_. He could be signing that just fine but if the judge goes "nuh uh" that's it. Not to mention that isn't there a self discrimination protection clause? Ie you can't be compelled to disclose information that would discriminate you?
AltonWells 6y ago
It does seem unconditional to hold someone for 5 years without sentencing him. Seems fishy
- ed25519FUUU 6y ago
  Especially for $2m in coins? Not only is this a waste of time and money, but it’s damaging to our legal system. It’s like a petty parent trying to punish a toddler for not eating their veggies by sending them to their room for a year.
  - xibalba 6y ago
    A closer reading of the article is in order: > 161 investors who paid Thompson $12.7 million to find the ship, never saw any proceeds and finally sued > a different federal judge ordered Thompson to appear in court to disclose the coins' whereabouts. Instead, Thompson fled to Florida > [Thompson]'s previously said, without providing details, that the coins were turned over to a trust in Belize. > a federal appeals court last year rejected Thompson's argument that that law [18 month limit] applies to him. > Thompson hasn't just refused to answer questions ... He's also violated the requirement that he "assist" the parties by refusing to execute a limited power of attorney to allow that Belizean trust to be examined, as required under his plea deal. > He would be out of prison by now if he had simply complied with his plea agreement This guy is a big-time thief and a jerk. The courts are functioning just fine.
  - polartx 6y ago
    “It’s only $n dollars, is that worth a mans life?!?” I dunno, let’s ask that man?
  - wahern 6y ago
    It's not punishment. This is civil contempt, not criminal, and can persist only so long as the court is confident of the person's capability to cooperate. As the article mentions, he refuses to even execute a limited power of attorney so authorities can follow up on his claim that he turned over the coins to a Belizean trust. In 2009 a bitter divorcee, H. Beatty Chadwick, was released after 14 years (sic!) of confinement. He was eventually released when another judge decided continued confinement was futile. https://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/12/us/12contempt.html https://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/12/us/12contempt.html But note that the confinement had been reviewed by other courts several times, and every time they agreed that the guy was capable of cooperating. And all it takes is a single judge to decide to end the confinement, not the original judge. Note that these articles never give the full story, and because of that people get the impression that courts are simply relying on mere opinion and conjecture as to whether the person is capable of complying with their order. Here's one of the appellate courts decisions in the Chadwick case, https://casetext.com/case/chadwick-v-janecka https://casetext.com/case/chadwick-v-janecka, which has more details; and a subsequent SCOTUS opinion reciting the same facts, https://casetext.com/case/chadwick-v-janecka-3 https://casetext.com/case/chadwick-v-janecka-3 Again, the point of the confinement isn't just the amount of money at stake, and it's certainly not about retribution. It's that if everybody thought they could defy court orders this way (e.g. decide that $2.5 million is worth 18 months confinement) then courts would have diminished powers to vindicate other people's rights. I understand people's fear of this kind of state-sanctioned power, but imagine how much more fearful people would be if courts were toothless and victims resorted to mafia-style coercion. The choice here isn't some anarchist utopia vs a dystopian state; it's a choice between the rule of law (which will never be perfect), and extrajudicial enforcers. This is especially true when we're talking about the kind of money that's at stake in these cases. Poor people resort to street justice all the time, for better or worse. But when millionaires start doing it, that's how you get a collapsed state. And ask anyone who lives in a collapsed state how safe they feel.
ConSeannery 6y ago
He was paid 12.7 million from investors....to find gold coins worth 2 - 4 million? How does that make sense? Do all investors get their money back plus proceeds from gold sales, minus costs and a stipend or something? Also the dude actually does look like a pirate
- raldi 6y ago
  The gold used to mint the coins was just a sample of what's in the ship's hold. The article says it's "thousands of pounds"; 1000 pounds of gold is worth $30M.
- oh_sigh 6y ago
  Maybe they thought there were more gold coins than there actually were.
- esaym 6y ago
  Maybe they saw the gold as an investment that would double in value every 10 years?
jtchang 6y ago
If you want to find something you should let that person go and then follow them closely. Clearly this person either really doesn't remember or doesn't want to tell. You can't really coerce it out of them at this point.
- starmonger999 6y ago
  He's 68 for Pete's sake. How much life does he left to enjoy those millions?
Sargos 6y ago
This does not seem like justice to me. Are people actually okay with this? I feel like this is something we'd read about the king doing in the medieval ages and grimace while being glad we live in a "civilized" society. What if he's lying? The state might lose out on some old artifacts. There is also ample opportunity and time for authorities to investigate and track this man and the stolen coins as he will be watched like a hawk until they are recovered. What if he's telling the truth? An innocent man is having his entire life taken away. This is a worse punishment than for anything short of first degree murder. Some gold coins vs a human being's life. The choice seems easy to me and it's bewildering that it's not easy for others as well.
- exged 6y ago
  It's not just some gold coins, it's also the matter of $12.7 million invested in his research endeavor. If you raised $12.7 million to start a company like Theranos you'd also be looking at a steep prison sentence for securities fraud.
  - Sargos 6y ago
    I would be tried for fraud like Elizabeth Holmes is where evidence is presented. She is not currently in prison and has been living in a luxury apartment rather than a COVID dungeon like this man has been in for 5 years without trial.
    - phsau 6y ago
      I'm not sure you read the entire article. It's not simply being in contempt of the court for failing to provide information on the asset location, but for refusing to uphold the plea bargain in which he provides limited power of attorney to investigate the trust held in Belize. You can't in good faith claim you can't remember and also refuse to assist in any capacity. He would be free if he provided the power of attorney.
      - pmoriarty 6y ago
        So it basically all comes down to money. If you believe his punishment is just you should believe in debtors' prisons. If you don't believe in debtors' prisons, you should object to this.
curiousllama 6y ago
Ok, so the dude got a $12.7 investment, found the gold, then stiffed his investors. Even if he’s telling the truth that he cant remember where he stashed the gold, it’s not like he didn’t have time to bring it back. C’mon, the tldr here is “crazy looking dude dude embezzles some money, ends up in jail.”
11thEarlOfMar 6y ago
After reading, I thought, there has to be a lot more to this story. There is[0]: Search and discovery: The ship was located by the Columbus-America Discovery Group of Ohio, led by Tommy Gregory Thompson, using Bayesian search theory. A remotely operated vehicle (ROV) was sent down on 11 September 1988. Significant amounts of gold and artifacts were recovered and brought to the surface by another ROV built specifically for the recovery. The total value of the recovered gold was estimated at $100–150 million. A recovered gold ingot weighing 80 lb (36 kg) sold for a record $8 million and was recognized as the most valuable piece of currency in the world at that time. Thirty-nine insurance companies filed suit, claiming that because they paid damages in the 19th century for the lost gold, they had the right to it. The team that found it argued that the gold had been abandoned. After a legal battle, 92% of the gold was awarded to the discovery team in 1996. Thompson was sued in 2005 by several of the investors who had provided $12.5 million in financing, and in 2006 by several members of his crew, over a lack of returns for their respective investments. In 2009 he had an off-shore account in the Cook Islands of 4.16 million. Thompson went into hiding in 2012. A receiver was appointed to take over Thompson's companies and, if possible, salvage more gold from the wreck, in order to recover money for Thompson's various creditors. In March 2014, a contract was awarded to Odyssey Marine Exploration to conduct archeological recovery and conservation of the remaining shipwreck. The original expedition had only excavated "5 percent" of the ship. Thompson was located in January 2015, along with assistant Alison Antekeier, by US Marshals agents, and was extradited to Ohio to provide an accounting of the expedition profits. In November 2018 Thompson agreed to surrender 500 gold coins - but then claimed he has no access to the missing coins. On 28 November 2018 a jury awarded Investors 19.4 million in compensatory damages-3.2 Million to the Dispatch Printing Company [which had put up 1 million of 22 million invested] and 16.2 million to the court appointed receiver of the other investors. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Central_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Central_America
FpUser 6y ago
Whenever I hear "contempt of the court" this comes to mind (14 years in jail): https://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=8101209&page=1 https://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=8101209&page=1

41 points by erentz 6y ago

It's worse than jailed for 5 years; there's no real time limit to contempt of court. His sentence was for 2 years, but he has not yet begun that sentence as he is being held in contempt until he provides the location

ed25519FUUU 6y ago
At the end of this he’ll probably be rich, but from a lawsuit against the state, not gold coins.
- chmod775 6y ago
  He's 68. He probably won't live to see the end of any such lawsuit.

Waterluvian 6y ago

So if he truly doesn't know does he just stay in prison for life? One of my biggest irrational fears is someone awful being convinced that I know something they need.

Analemma_ 6y ago
> Thompson hasn't just refused to answer questions, the court ruled: He's also violated the requirement that he "assist" the parties by refusing to execute a limited power of attorney to allow that Belizean trust [which Thompsons says owns the coins] to be examined, as required under his plea deal. It's pretty clear this isn't a case of forgetting. Courts are not as stupid and gullible as tech people sometimes like to pretend.
- emilfihlman 6y ago
  You are entirely missing the point. He could be co-operating just fine but if the judge decides "we don't believe you" that's it.
  - simonh 6y ago
    This went to appeal and his appeal was rejected in precisely this point. He is not cooperating. It’s not just about him refusing to give information, he’s also refusing to perform actions required by the court, specifically exercising his power of attorney.
    - Waterluvian 6y ago
      Interesting that a court with the power to imprison him indefinitely lacks the power to just kind of invoke power of attorney.
      - staticman2 6y ago
        The power of attorney is for another country where the court has no jurisdiction.
    - emilfihlman 6y ago
      Isn't there a self discrimination protection clause? Ie you can't be compelled to disclose information that would discriminate you?
  - darkerside 6y ago
    No, he's refusing to cooperate by signing the LPOA
    - emilfihlman 6y ago
      You are _missing the point_. He could be signing that just fine but if the judge goes "nuh uh" that's it. Not to mention that isn't there a self discrimination protection clause? Ie you can't be compelled to disclose information that would discriminate you?

AltonWells 6y ago

It does seem unconditional to hold someone for 5 years without sentencing him. Seems fishy

ed25519FUUU 6y ago
Especially for $2m in coins? Not only is this a waste of time and money, but it’s damaging to our legal system. It’s like a petty parent trying to punish a toddler for not eating their veggies by sending them to their room for a year.
- xibalba 6y ago
  A closer reading of the article is in order: > 161 investors who paid Thompson $12.7 million to find the ship, never saw any proceeds and finally sued > a different federal judge ordered Thompson to appear in court to disclose the coins' whereabouts. Instead, Thompson fled to Florida > [Thompson]'s previously said, without providing details, that the coins were turned over to a trust in Belize. > a federal appeals court last year rejected Thompson's argument that that law [18 month limit] applies to him. > Thompson hasn't just refused to answer questions ... He's also violated the requirement that he "assist" the parties by refusing to execute a limited power of attorney to allow that Belizean trust to be examined, as required under his plea deal. > He would be out of prison by now if he had simply complied with his plea agreement This guy is a big-time thief and a jerk. The courts are functioning just fine.
- polartx 6y ago
  “It’s only $n dollars, is that worth a mans life?!?” I dunno, let’s ask that man?
- wahern 6y ago
  It's not punishment. This is civil contempt, not criminal, and can persist only so long as the court is confident of the person's capability to cooperate. As the article mentions, he refuses to even execute a limited power of attorney so authorities can follow up on his claim that he turned over the coins to a Belizean trust. In 2009 a bitter divorcee, H. Beatty Chadwick, was released after 14 years (sic!) of confinement. He was eventually released when another judge decided continued confinement was futile. https://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/12/us/12contempt.html https://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/12/us/12contempt.html But note that the confinement had been reviewed by other courts several times, and every time they agreed that the guy was capable of cooperating. And all it takes is a single judge to decide to end the confinement, not the original judge. Note that these articles never give the full story, and because of that people get the impression that courts are simply relying on mere opinion and conjecture as to whether the person is capable of complying with their order. Here's one of the appellate courts decisions in the Chadwick case, https://casetext.com/case/chadwick-v-janecka https://casetext.com/case/chadwick-v-janecka, which has more details; and a subsequent SCOTUS opinion reciting the same facts, https://casetext.com/case/chadwick-v-janecka-3 https://casetext.com/case/chadwick-v-janecka-3 Again, the point of the confinement isn't just the amount of money at stake, and it's certainly not about retribution. It's that if everybody thought they could defy court orders this way (e.g. decide that $2.5 million is worth 18 months confinement) then courts would have diminished powers to vindicate other people's rights. I understand people's fear of this kind of state-sanctioned power, but imagine how much more fearful people would be if courts were toothless and victims resorted to mafia-style coercion. The choice here isn't some anarchist utopia vs a dystopian state; it's a choice between the rule of law (which will never be perfect), and extrajudicial enforcers. This is especially true when we're talking about the kind of money that's at stake in these cases. Poor people resort to street justice all the time, for better or worse. But when millionaires start doing it, that's how you get a collapsed state. And ask anyone who lives in a collapsed state how safe they feel.

ConSeannery 6y ago

He was paid 12.7 million from investors....to find gold coins worth 2 - 4 million? How does that make sense? Do all investors get their money back plus proceeds from gold sales, minus costs and a stipend or something? Also the dude actually does look like a pirate

raldi 6y ago
The gold used to mint the coins was just a sample of what's in the ship's hold. The article says it's "thousands of pounds"; 1000 pounds of gold is worth $30M.
oh_sigh 6y ago
Maybe they thought there were more gold coins than there actually were.
esaym 6y ago
Maybe they saw the gold as an investment that would double in value every 10 years?

jtchang 6y ago

If you want to find something you should let that person go and then follow them closely. Clearly this person either really doesn't remember or doesn't want to tell. You can't really coerce it out of them at this point.

starmonger999 6y ago
He's 68 for Pete's sake. How much life does he left to enjoy those millions?

Sargos 6y ago

This does not seem like justice to me. Are people actually okay with this? I feel like this is something we'd read about the king doing in the medieval ages and grimace while being glad we live in a "civilized" society. What if he's lying? The state might lose out on some old artifacts. There is also ample opportunity and time for authorities to investigate and track this man and the stolen coins as he will be watched like a hawk until they are recovered. What if he's telling the truth? An innocent man is having his entire life taken away. This is a worse punishment than for anything short of first degree murder. Some gold coins vs a human being's life. The choice seems easy to me and it's bewildering that it's not easy for others as well.

exged 6y ago
It's not just some gold coins, it's also the matter of $12.7 million invested in his research endeavor. If you raised $12.7 million to start a company like Theranos you'd also be looking at a steep prison sentence for securities fraud.
- Sargos 6y ago
  I would be tried for fraud like Elizabeth Holmes is where evidence is presented. She is not currently in prison and has been living in a luxury apartment rather than a COVID dungeon like this man has been in for 5 years without trial.
  - phsau 6y ago
    I'm not sure you read the entire article. It's not simply being in contempt of the court for failing to provide information on the asset location, but for refusing to uphold the plea bargain in which he provides limited power of attorney to investigate the trust held in Belize. You can't in good faith claim you can't remember and also refuse to assist in any capacity. He would be free if he provided the power of attorney.
    - pmoriarty 6y ago
      So it basically all comes down to money. If you believe his punishment is just you should believe in debtors' prisons. If you don't believe in debtors' prisons, you should object to this.

curiousllama 6y ago

Ok, so the dude got a $12.7 investment, found the gold, then stiffed his investors. Even if he’s telling the truth that he cant remember where he stashed the gold, it’s not like he didn’t have time to bring it back. C’mon, the tldr here is “crazy looking dude dude embezzles some money, ends up in jail.”

11thEarlOfMar 6y ago

After reading, I thought, there has to be a lot more to this story. There is[0]: Search and discovery: The ship was located by the Columbus-America Discovery Group of Ohio, led by Tommy Gregory Thompson, using Bayesian search theory. A remotely operated vehicle (ROV) was sent down on 11 September 1988. Significant amounts of gold and artifacts were recovered and brought to the surface by another ROV built specifically for the recovery. The total value of the recovered gold was estimated at $100–150 million. A recovered gold ingot weighing 80 lb (36 kg) sold for a record $8 million and was recognized as the most valuable piece of currency in the world at that time. Thirty-nine insurance companies filed suit, claiming that because they paid damages in the 19th century for the lost gold, they had the right to it. The team that found it argued that the gold had been abandoned. After a legal battle, 92% of the gold was awarded to the discovery team in 1996. Thompson was sued in 2005 by several of the investors who had provided $12.5 million in financing, and in 2006 by several members of his crew, over a lack of returns for their respective investments. In 2009 he had an off-shore account in the Cook Islands of 4.16 million. Thompson went into hiding in 2012. A receiver was appointed to take over Thompson's companies and, if possible, salvage more gold from the wreck, in order to recover money for Thompson's various creditors. In March 2014, a contract was awarded to Odyssey Marine Exploration to conduct archeological recovery and conservation of the remaining shipwreck. The original expedition had only excavated "5 percent" of the ship. Thompson was located in January 2015, along with assistant Alison Antekeier, by US Marshals agents, and was extradited to Ohio to provide an accounting of the expedition profits. In November 2018 Thompson agreed to surrender 500 gold coins - but then claimed he has no access to the missing coins. On 28 November 2018 a jury awarded Investors 19.4 million in compensatory damages-3.2 Million to the Dispatch Printing Company [which had put up 1 million of 22 million invested] and 16.2 million to the court appointed receiver of the other investors. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Central_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Central_America

FpUser 6y ago

Whenever I hear "contempt of the court" this comes to mind (14 years in jail): https://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=8101209&page=1 https://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=8101209&page=1