7 ms·

Ok, I will probably get downvoted for this. But I will still speak my mind: I am an EU citizen and I don’t think that’s the right approach because it’s distract

by baxtr 6y ago

Ok, I will probably get downvoted for this. But I will still speak my mind: I am an EU citizen and I don’t think that’s the right approach because it’s distracting from what really happened: We missed the big Internet bus because we were so much focused on keeping things the way they were. Now we try to regulate us out. It makes me unbelievably sad. And it continues. The car was invented here but it takes an Australian visionary to push our car companies into the future. I am sure we will want to regulate Tesla soon too.

nickpp 6y ago
Another EU citizen here, resonating with your words. It seems that Europe has decided to stop evolving and just do anything to protect the status quo. All these regulations just trying to keep those damn disruptors at bay. Innovation is forbidden here. But hey! It’s for our own good.
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  >It seems that Europe has decided to stop evolving and just do anything to protect the status quo. Innovation is forbidden here. But hey! It’s for our own good. Yeah, this. Europe is an old continent that's mostly old money. The Europeans of today are rich mostly due to inherited wealth and former imperialism, not wealth they created themselves through innovation, with some families tracing their wealth back for centuries when land was cheap and plentiful and taxes were next to nothing that any hardworking person could buy land and build a business and while the wealth didn't go stratospheric, it still multiplied handsomely for their successors since "time in the market beats timing the market". If you look at Europe's biggest and wealthiest companies, most of them are several decades if not centuries old with some of their major shareholders still being old European nobility, in contrast to the US where the top tech companies are at most 30 years old, with older ones that fail to innovate always dying in a healthy cycle (IBM, Sun, Oracle, SGI, etc.), leaving room for new players(FAANG) to come on the market and eat the lunch of the dinosaurs. While in Europe, with so much of the pie taken by the old players, there's no more room for new players to spring up since the old established ones pulled the ladder up after them. The image of the typical wealthy successful German is not that of a hip 20-30 year old who built some cool business in his dorm room or his parents' garage like in the US, but of a 40 year old man with a Porsche who inherited his dad's machine shop and rolodex(typical owner of the famous Mittelstand that's always revered here on HN). All this old wealth is very risk adverse and feels threatened by disruptions and will fight tooth and nail to keep their status quo.
  - nickpp 6y ago
    And further: don’t bother starting that business dear citizen. Don’t worry your pretty little head with entrepreneurship, it’s too complicated for you. Just take one of these comfy government jobs we’re providing and you’ll be fine. We'll even take care of your pension and give you "free" health care.
    - croes 6y ago
      Yeah, let's be like the US in the corona pandemic, not. That adored business mostly exploited either their users or their employees. Facebook, Amazon, Uber, etc.
    - piva00 6y ago
      Don't do this kind of generalisation, this is exactly the opposite mindset of Sweden, for example. Here entrepreneurship is valued and supported by the government, not only directly but indirectly with a good safety net in case of failures, trying to start a company is completely doable and encouraged.
  - 908B64B197 6y ago
    What I wonder is how many of these wealthy Europeans own FAANG stocks?
    - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
      You can bet that most of them that diversified did so, with the emphasis being they own US tech stocks, not EU tech stocks.
- idkwhoiam 6y ago
  Couldn't agree more. The EU is well behind the rest of the world in terms of innovation. We spend all our time thinking about new taxes & regulations. IMO all this bureaucracy will kill the EU.
- I_am_tiberius 6y ago
  As a founder myself, I can't agree more. For startups the EU becomes more and more poisonous.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
908B64B197 6y ago
Just think of all the unionized government jobs all this compliance work will create! I can already see politicians congratulating one another for creating all these jobs!
mrtksn 6y ago
Europe didn’t miss the internet bus because of regulations, there were no regulations until the dust settled. The thing is, there’s no US style capital in EU. The American capitalist bankrolled all the internet when there was no clear path to make money from it. I remember when YouTube was burning billions per year, Facebook being labeled as “would never be profitable”. Is there the kind of money in Europe that would take these risks? There was no way for the internet to be EU thing because when it was fresh god knows how many billions had to be spent to have it operate and cross fingers to be able to recoup that investment. Simply, there is no that kind of money in Europe. If you made the YouTube in Europe you would go bankrupt because you wouldn’t be able to pay the server bills.
- baxtr 6y ago
  I totally agree with you all your points. Just to be clear: I never said we missed the bus because of regulation. But the fact that we react like that now shows we don’t have other ideas or means to respond.
  - mrtksn 6y ago
    Having your communication run by foreign entities is dangerous. it’s no longer even direct communication, it’s curated. It can be used to create political problems, social unrest or movements, it can be used as commercial advantage on other areas. China happened to actually have a true competitor, TikTok and the first instinct of the USA was to try to ban it or force acquisition.
    - themacguffinman 6y ago
      The Big Tech that the EU is targeting is mostly US-based, and the US is an EU ally. The US wasn't banning or forcing acquisitions for foreign competitors like WhatsApp or Line, and the EU isn't making moves on Visa/Mastercard which are arguably just as critical. If the EU was making this move based on national security reasons, I'd also expect them to be upfront about it.
      - 6y ago
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
coddle-hark 6y ago
I can’t comment on why Europe isn’t the world leader in tech... but are we really missing out on much? The head counts (=jobs) of these companies are low compared to other sectors. Most (all?) have a strong European presence. Anyone can buy their stocks and share their wealth. It’s not like we don’t have strong engineering talent, either. Is there something I’m missing?
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  It's one of the last growing sector, where there's a lot of value added.
- Aerroon 6y ago
  The problem is the future. Automation is undoubtedly going to be the key technology in the future. You want to have as healthy of a tech industry as possible to not miss the point when the balance starts shifting heavily towards automation. You can't expect to always be able to buy from China/the US.
  - coddle-hark 6y ago
    I guess, but it’s not like the European tech sector is falling behind in terms of engineering. We have a healthy tech industry, just not a lot of world-dominating unicorns.
maltelandwehr 6y ago
China showed how to foster a local tech startup ecosystem. As long as Europe refuses to take the same route, the US and China will split the pie.
- rasz 6y ago
  By banning foreign ownership.
alkonaut 6y ago
The EU is a diverse place. I think trying to generalize “the EU” as being a certain way is making a too crude generalization. But when all is said and done I’d sure much rather have EU regulation and EU share of internet companies, than anything else. Also who’s the Aussie? If anyone is pushing on car companies these days I’d say it’s Elon Musk (Who is a South Africa born American)
mbo 6y ago
Elon is South African, not Australian
- frongpik 6y ago
  I can see how he says on some TV interview: "well, as an african myself, I ..."
AntiImperialist 6y ago
Why would you be downvoted? You're speaking in favor of your enemies, which are the tech companies in the U.S. the employees of which comprises most of the HN crowd. It is in the best interest of the E.U. to regulate Big Tech, if only because they are all from the U.S. But with massive amount of economic muscle that tech companies can muster, specially if they work together, not to mention most of EU still "protected" by NATO, I doubt EU will manage to anything big anytime soon.
- themacguffinman 6y ago
  Perhaps in the short term, but regulating Big Tech to the ground is not really in the EU's long term interest. I suspect it will actually setback its own tech industry relative to global players for the meagre benefit of temporarily slowing down Big Tech in the EU market.
  - AntiImperialist 6y ago
    That's not how international trade works. You can regulate your competitors differently.
    - themacguffinman 6y ago
      Ok, but it doesn't look like they are. These are broad EU digital market rules. Blatant protectionism isn't popular in developed countries (except in certain industries, not this one at least).
      - AntiImperialist 6y ago
        >Blatant protectionism isn't popular in developed countries Depends which developed countries and which industries. It is much more common than what it appears on the surface.
croes 6y ago
Australian?

by baxtr 6y ago

nickpp 6y ago

Another EU citizen here, resonating with your words. It seems that Europe has decided to stop evolving and just do anything to protect the status quo. All these regulations just trying to keep those damn disruptors at bay. Innovation is forbidden here. But hey! It’s for our own good.

ChuckNorris89 6y ago
>It seems that Europe has decided to stop evolving and just do anything to protect the status quo. Innovation is forbidden here. But hey! It’s for our own good. Yeah, this. Europe is an old continent that's mostly old money. The Europeans of today are rich mostly due to inherited wealth and former imperialism, not wealth they created themselves through innovation, with some families tracing their wealth back for centuries when land was cheap and plentiful and taxes were next to nothing that any hardworking person could buy land and build a business and while the wealth didn't go stratospheric, it still multiplied handsomely for their successors since "time in the market beats timing the market". If you look at Europe's biggest and wealthiest companies, most of them are several decades if not centuries old with some of their major shareholders still being old European nobility, in contrast to the US where the top tech companies are at most 30 years old, with older ones that fail to innovate always dying in a healthy cycle (IBM, Sun, Oracle, SGI, etc.), leaving room for new players(FAANG) to come on the market and eat the lunch of the dinosaurs. While in Europe, with so much of the pie taken by the old players, there's no more room for new players to spring up since the old established ones pulled the ladder up after them. The image of the typical wealthy successful German is not that of a hip 20-30 year old who built some cool business in his dorm room or his parents' garage like in the US, but of a 40 year old man with a Porsche who inherited his dad's machine shop and rolodex(typical owner of the famous Mittelstand that's always revered here on HN). All this old wealth is very risk adverse and feels threatened by disruptions and will fight tooth and nail to keep their status quo.
- nickpp 6y ago
  And further: don’t bother starting that business dear citizen. Don’t worry your pretty little head with entrepreneurship, it’s too complicated for you. Just take one of these comfy government jobs we’re providing and you’ll be fine. We'll even take care of your pension and give you "free" health care.
  - croes 6y ago
    Yeah, let's be like the US in the corona pandemic, not. That adored business mostly exploited either their users or their employees. Facebook, Amazon, Uber, etc.
  - piva00 6y ago
    Don't do this kind of generalisation, this is exactly the opposite mindset of Sweden, for example. Here entrepreneurship is valued and supported by the government, not only directly but indirectly with a good safety net in case of failures, trying to start a company is completely doable and encouraged.
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  What I wonder is how many of these wealthy Europeans own FAANG stocks?
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    You can bet that most of them that diversified did so, with the emphasis being they own US tech stocks, not EU tech stocks.
idkwhoiam 6y ago
Couldn't agree more. The EU is well behind the rest of the world in terms of innovation. We spend all our time thinking about new taxes & regulations. IMO all this bureaucracy will kill the EU.
I_am_tiberius 6y ago
As a founder myself, I can't agree more. For startups the EU becomes more and more poisonous.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

908B64B197 6y ago

Just think of all the unionized government jobs all this compliance work will create! I can already see politicians congratulating one another for creating all these jobs!

mrtksn 6y ago

Europe didn’t miss the internet bus because of regulations, there were no regulations until the dust settled. The thing is, there’s no US style capital in EU. The American capitalist bankrolled all the internet when there was no clear path to make money from it. I remember when YouTube was burning billions per year, Facebook being labeled as “would never be profitable”. Is there the kind of money in Europe that would take these risks? There was no way for the internet to be EU thing because when it was fresh god knows how many billions had to be spent to have it operate and cross fingers to be able to recoup that investment. Simply, there is no that kind of money in Europe. If you made the YouTube in Europe you would go bankrupt because you wouldn’t be able to pay the server bills.

baxtr 6y ago
I totally agree with you all your points. Just to be clear: I never said we missed the bus because of regulation. But the fact that we react like that now shows we don’t have other ideas or means to respond.
- mrtksn 6y ago
  Having your communication run by foreign entities is dangerous. it’s no longer even direct communication, it’s curated. It can be used to create political problems, social unrest or movements, it can be used as commercial advantage on other areas. China happened to actually have a true competitor, TikTok and the first instinct of the USA was to try to ban it or force acquisition.
  - themacguffinman 6y ago
    The Big Tech that the EU is targeting is mostly US-based, and the US is an EU ally. The US wasn't banning or forcing acquisitions for foreign competitors like WhatsApp or Line, and the EU isn't making moves on Visa/Mastercard which are arguably just as critical. If the EU was making this move based on national security reasons, I'd also expect them to be upfront about it.
    - 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

coddle-hark 6y ago

I can’t comment on why Europe isn’t the world leader in tech... but are we really missing out on much? The head counts (=jobs) of these companies are low compared to other sectors. Most (all?) have a strong European presence. Anyone can buy their stocks and share their wealth. It’s not like we don’t have strong engineering talent, either. Is there something I’m missing?

908B64B197 6y ago
It's one of the last growing sector, where there's a lot of value added.
Aerroon 6y ago
The problem is the future. Automation is undoubtedly going to be the key technology in the future. You want to have as healthy of a tech industry as possible to not miss the point when the balance starts shifting heavily towards automation. You can't expect to always be able to buy from China/the US.
- coddle-hark 6y ago
  I guess, but it’s not like the European tech sector is falling behind in terms of engineering. We have a healthy tech industry, just not a lot of world-dominating unicorns.

maltelandwehr 6y ago

China showed how to foster a local tech startup ecosystem. As long as Europe refuses to take the same route, the US and China will split the pie.

rasz 6y ago
By banning foreign ownership.

alkonaut 6y ago

The EU is a diverse place. I think trying to generalize “the EU” as being a certain way is making a too crude generalization. But when all is said and done I’d sure much rather have EU regulation and EU share of internet companies, than anything else. Also who’s the Aussie? If anyone is pushing on car companies these days I’d say it’s Elon Musk (Who is a South Africa born American)

mbo 6y ago

Elon is South African, not Australian

frongpik 6y ago
I can see how he says on some TV interview: "well, as an african myself, I ..."

AntiImperialist 6y ago

Why would you be downvoted? You're speaking in favor of your enemies, which are the tech companies in the U.S. the employees of which comprises most of the HN crowd. It is in the best interest of the E.U. to regulate Big Tech, if only because they are all from the U.S. But with massive amount of economic muscle that tech companies can muster, specially if they work together, not to mention most of EU still "protected" by NATO, I doubt EU will manage to anything big anytime soon.

themacguffinman 6y ago
Perhaps in the short term, but regulating Big Tech to the ground is not really in the EU's long term interest. I suspect it will actually setback its own tech industry relative to global players for the meagre benefit of temporarily slowing down Big Tech in the EU market.
- AntiImperialist 6y ago
  That's not how international trade works. You can regulate your competitors differently.
  - themacguffinman 6y ago
    Ok, but it doesn't look like they are. These are broad EU digital market rules. Blatant protectionism isn't popular in developed countries (except in certain industries, not this one at least).
    - AntiImperialist 6y ago
      >Blatant protectionism isn't popular in developed countries Depends which developed countries and which industries. It is much more common than what it appears on the surface.

croes 6y ago

Australian?