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Whenever I go outside and see >50% people wearing disposable masks I wonder... Why? Did they only find out about the pandemic right now and it caught them off-g

Whenever I go outside and see >50% people wearing disposable masks I wonder... Why? Did they only find out about the pandemic right now and it caught them off-guard? I have had reusable masks since April. I assumed everyone was doing the same, but everytime I go outside I prove myself wrong. I don't get it.

nickthemagicman 6y ago
The reason medical professionals wear disposable masks in clinics is because reusable masks don't work. Actual correct mask usage means changing masks numerous times a day.
- asutekku 6y ago
  There's a slight difference on what is required by a medical professional and by someone just commuting. Sure, one could always do better, but reusable masks are adequate.
  - nickthemagicman 6y ago
    Maybe adequate for applying a plague vector directly to your face, a plague vector that's been constantly potentially exposed to a virus that stays on surfaces for days. Sure they're adequate for that. There's a reason medical professionals change their PPE. Corona virus doesn't magically become less deadly or less contagious outside of medical institutions.
- aeturnum 6y ago
  You are spreading false information. Reusable masks do "work." Masks lose effectiveness over time and should be changed regularly, but it is not true that "correct" usage involves changing them "numerous times a day." There are two major factors that, as I understand it, drive the use of disposable masks in clinical settings. First is that healthcare workers see many sick people a day and they are worried about surface transmission. This is the main reason why they need to change their masks so often. The rest of us, who are moving through the world without looking directly into the mouths of sick people, have fewer foreign moisture on our masks. The second is that masks do become less effective over time, but the relative import of mask effectiveness should be judged proportionally to risk of the situation. Again, clinical workers are in a higher risk situation, so they change masks more often. The utility for the general public is lower. Cloth masks were called into question early in the pandemic due to a 2015 study indicating they spread disease[1]. This was in a medical setting and, as I understand it (I am a layman) it was because of poor mask sanitation (i.e. using masks for many days without cleaning). My understanding is that using a cloth mask for a day is better than no mask. Of course it would be better to change it more often, but the relative risk is low. Since then we have done a number of studies on cloth masks in the population and those studies have shown that cloth masks are effective[2]. It is true that "better" masks protect better, but that protection is almost always trumped by compliance. The mask you will wear is 100% better than the mask you won't wear. So health experts have focused on that. The medical community has done a shit job of communicating this, but that's no reason to say things that don't seem to be true. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4420971/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4420971/ [2] https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-abou...
  - EB-Barrington 6y ago
    No matter which of those two mask types are employed, a relevant May 2020 meta-study on pandemic influenza published by the CDC found that face masks had no effect, neither as personal protective equipment nor as a source control. "In pooled analysis, we found no significant reduction in influenza transmission with the use of face masks". "Disposable medical masks (also known as surgical masks) are loose-fitting devices that were designed to be worn by medical personnel to protect accidental contamination of patient wounds, and to protect the wearer against splashes or sprays of bodily fluids (36). There is limited evidence for their effectiveness in preventing influenza virus transmission either when worn by the infected person for source control or when worn by uninfected persons to reduce exposure. Our systematic review found no significant effect of face masks on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza." "Proper use of face masks is essential because improper use might increase the risk for transmission." Has the CDC analysis been refuted? https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > May 2020 meta-study on pandemic influenza That's probably quite important if you are trying to control pandemic influenza, but SARS-COV-2 isn't influenza. Different pathogens have different characteristics, and thus different responses to protective measures. AFAIK, most influenzas are much more prone to airborne transmission than SARS-COV-2, where the main concern is droplet transmission (though some airborne transmission seems to occur), against which masks that are ineffective against airborne transmission can be quite effective. You wouldn't judge the value of condoms in preventing the spread of AIDS by studies of how effective they were in preventing the spread of the flu, either.
      - EB-Barrington 6y ago
        What size particle/droplet is most important in stopping Covid transmission?
    - jcheng 6y ago
      https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/masking-science-sars-cov2.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/masking-scien... https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
textech 6y ago
Apparently surgical masks are better than the cloth masks. https://healthnewshub.org/cloth-mask-vs-surgical-mask-vs-n95-how-effective-is-each/ https://healthnewshub.org/cloth-mask-vs-surgical-mask-vs-n95...
- hi5eyes 6y ago
  ngl i wash and reuse surgical masks my thinking being they’re probably safer than some cloth mask some brand decided to start selling
  - FreeFull 6y ago
    If the masks come with a hydrophobic coating, then washing them significantly reduces their ability to effectively filter air.
- syshum 6y ago
  The Duke study this article is highlighting has been refuted due to poor testing methodology.
  - gruez 6y ago
    Source?
matz1 6y ago
The Mask is only for compliance and to make other people feeling good, thats it, thats the only usage. It is not to stop virus because it can't, unless maybe a very specific type of mask and with proper training.
- adkadskhj 6y ago
  What is your "except maybe a very specific mask usage"? Because i thought the well studied data was clear on mask usage.
  - worker767424 6y ago
    At least over the summer, most of the studies were in medical settings, in vitro, or had some other asterisk attached that made it hard to generalize.
- ben_w 6y ago
  They help even when they are worn wrong. https://kottke.org/plus/misc/images/swiss-cheese-pandemic.jpg https://kottke.org/plus/misc/images/swiss-cheese-pandemic.jp...
  - matz1 6y ago
    how it help, from the picture it shown that virus particle are smaller than mask pores. Masks: The Science & The Myths : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RaBLKKXJt4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RaBLKKXJt4
    - yibg 6y ago
      Because the virus particles travel on other things, and those other things are big enough to get blocked.
      - tangent-man 6y ago
        No its because of Brownian Diffusion. Counter intuitively masks block particles smaller than 0.3 microns (such as virus’s) more easily than particles at around 0.3 microns in size. It is particles that are around 0.3 microns in size that filters have the most difficulty blocking. N95 particles block 95% of particles of 0.3 microns in size. N99 Masks block 99% of particles at 0.3 microns. As I understand it smaller particles get ‘stuck’ in the maze of fibres and are statistically unlikely to find there way through the mask. The best analogy I can think of is a spec of dust finding its way into a centre of a huge labarynth that is vibrating randomly in all directions (and coated in honey). Some respirator masks also contain anti viral coatings and are electrostaticaly charged.
splaytreemap 6y ago
Some companies (Southwest Airlines for example) will refuse service to you if you're wearing a non-standard mask. Wearing the disposable blue surgical masks is the best bet if you don't want to be randomly denied access to somewhere you're going.
- r00fus 6y ago
  I wear reusable masks every day. If I go on a plane, yeah I also have disposable masks for those events. Do you have any non-travel related examples where they don't also hand out said masks?
dheera 6y ago
Simple reasons: - The cloth masks don't form a tight seal and leave two gaping holes on either side of my nose. - The cloth masks don't have as fine a filter mesh and aren't as effective at filtering tiny particles. That said, I don't go out that often, and my trips are limited in time, so I reuse a disposable N95/KN95 mask until I've worn it for as much as a total of 30-100 hours before I dispose of it. I also use reusable everything else wherever I can in my life, I just haven't found any actually good reusable masks that would pass e.g. NIOSH tests.
- yunesj 6y ago
  3M respirators with P100 filters have a comfortable silicone seal, aren’t very expensive, and actually prevent the wearer from infection. We settled on a public policy where we are only as safe as the worst mask an infected person is wearing. I would have preferred an alternative policy where people who don’t want to get sick simply wear an effective mask. I do encourage covering the exhale valve, though, just to be extra safe and considerate.
  - zucked 6y ago
    I have respirators and filters left over from home improvement projects - have you ever tried to communicate through those? Your voice takes on this indescribable warbly tone. I wouldn't want to try and accomplish any errands wearing one of those. Maybe if I were riding public transit and able to not speak to anyone...
    - yunesj 6y ago
      I don't have a lot of daily errands; mostly just picking up coffee or food outside and to go. I don't talk to people for that (except to say thanks!), and don't wear the P100 because it's low risk. Places I've worn the P100: an airplane, grocery store, train, Uber, medical lab for a test. I found the peace of mind alone was well worth the inconvenience in these scenarios.
  - dheera 6y ago
    I don't quite understand the policy argument. Can you explain the difference in the 2 policies? The main policy issues I see are (a) unavailability of good masks, not ramping up mask production, not controlling hoarding with strict consequences (b) advocating for not wearing masks
00deadbeef 6y ago
Face masks make me sweat like crazy so I’ve been using disposables for hygiene reasons
spullara 6y ago
I found out first hand that when you enter most hospitals they make you replace your mask with a disposable surgical mask.
fomine3 6y ago
I don't believe myself to be able to always manage fabric mask clean. Possibly dirt mask is worse than nothing, so I always wear disposable mask. Also I heard that non woven mask works better than fabric.

nickthemagicman 6y ago

The reason medical professionals wear disposable masks in clinics is because reusable masks don't work. Actual correct mask usage means changing masks numerous times a day.

asutekku 6y ago
There's a slight difference on what is required by a medical professional and by someone just commuting. Sure, one could always do better, but reusable masks are adequate.
- nickthemagicman 6y ago
  Maybe adequate for applying a plague vector directly to your face, a plague vector that's been constantly potentially exposed to a virus that stays on surfaces for days. Sure they're adequate for that. There's a reason medical professionals change their PPE. Corona virus doesn't magically become less deadly or less contagious outside of medical institutions.
aeturnum 6y ago
You are spreading false information. Reusable masks do "work." Masks lose effectiveness over time and should be changed regularly, but it is not true that "correct" usage involves changing them "numerous times a day." There are two major factors that, as I understand it, drive the use of disposable masks in clinical settings. First is that healthcare workers see many sick people a day and they are worried about surface transmission. This is the main reason why they need to change their masks so often. The rest of us, who are moving through the world without looking directly into the mouths of sick people, have fewer foreign moisture on our masks. The second is that masks do become less effective over time, but the relative import of mask effectiveness should be judged proportionally to risk of the situation. Again, clinical workers are in a higher risk situation, so they change masks more often. The utility for the general public is lower. Cloth masks were called into question early in the pandemic due to a 2015 study indicating they spread disease[1]. This was in a medical setting and, as I understand it (I am a layman) it was because of poor mask sanitation (i.e. using masks for many days without cleaning). My understanding is that using a cloth mask for a day is better than no mask. Of course it would be better to change it more often, but the relative risk is low. Since then we have done a number of studies on cloth masks in the population and those studies have shown that cloth masks are effective[2]. It is true that "better" masks protect better, but that protection is almost always trumped by compliance. The mask you will wear is 100% better than the mask you won't wear. So health experts have focused on that. The medical community has done a shit job of communicating this, but that's no reason to say things that don't seem to be true. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4420971/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4420971/ [2] https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-abou...
- EB-Barrington 6y ago
  No matter which of those two mask types are employed, a relevant May 2020 meta-study on pandemic influenza published by the CDC found that face masks had no effect, neither as personal protective equipment nor as a source control. "In pooled analysis, we found no significant reduction in influenza transmission with the use of face masks". "Disposable medical masks (also known as surgical masks) are loose-fitting devices that were designed to be worn by medical personnel to protect accidental contamination of patient wounds, and to protect the wearer against splashes or sprays of bodily fluids (36). There is limited evidence for their effectiveness in preventing influenza virus transmission either when worn by the infected person for source control or when worn by uninfected persons to reduce exposure. Our systematic review found no significant effect of face masks on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza." "Proper use of face masks is essential because improper use might increase the risk for transmission." Has the CDC analysis been refuted? https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > May 2020 meta-study on pandemic influenza That's probably quite important if you are trying to control pandemic influenza, but SARS-COV-2 isn't influenza. Different pathogens have different characteristics, and thus different responses to protective measures. AFAIK, most influenzas are much more prone to airborne transmission than SARS-COV-2, where the main concern is droplet transmission (though some airborne transmission seems to occur), against which masks that are ineffective against airborne transmission can be quite effective. You wouldn't judge the value of condoms in preventing the spread of AIDS by studies of how effective they were in preventing the spread of the flu, either.
    - EB-Barrington 6y ago
      What size particle/droplet is most important in stopping Covid transmission?
  - jcheng 6y ago
    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/masking-science-sars-cov2.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/masking-scien... https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

textech 6y ago

Apparently surgical masks are better than the cloth masks. https://healthnewshub.org/cloth-mask-vs-surgical-mask-vs-n95-how-effective-is-each/ https://healthnewshub.org/cloth-mask-vs-surgical-mask-vs-n95...

hi5eyes 6y ago
ngl i wash and reuse surgical masks my thinking being they’re probably safer than some cloth mask some brand decided to start selling
- FreeFull 6y ago
  If the masks come with a hydrophobic coating, then washing them significantly reduces their ability to effectively filter air.
syshum 6y ago
The Duke study this article is highlighting has been refuted due to poor testing methodology.
- gruez 6y ago
  Source?

matz1 6y ago

The Mask is only for compliance and to make other people feeling good, thats it, thats the only usage. It is not to stop virus because it can't, unless maybe a very specific type of mask and with proper training.

adkadskhj 6y ago
What is your "except maybe a very specific mask usage"? Because i thought the well studied data was clear on mask usage.
- worker767424 6y ago
  At least over the summer, most of the studies were in medical settings, in vitro, or had some other asterisk attached that made it hard to generalize.
ben_w 6y ago
They help even when they are worn wrong. https://kottke.org/plus/misc/images/swiss-cheese-pandemic.jpg https://kottke.org/plus/misc/images/swiss-cheese-pandemic.jp...
- matz1 6y ago
  how it help, from the picture it shown that virus particle are smaller than mask pores. Masks: The Science & The Myths : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RaBLKKXJt4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RaBLKKXJt4
  - yibg 6y ago
    Because the virus particles travel on other things, and those other things are big enough to get blocked.
    - tangent-man 6y ago
      No its because of Brownian Diffusion. Counter intuitively masks block particles smaller than 0.3 microns (such as virus’s) more easily than particles at around 0.3 microns in size. It is particles that are around 0.3 microns in size that filters have the most difficulty blocking. N95 particles block 95% of particles of 0.3 microns in size. N99 Masks block 99% of particles at 0.3 microns. As I understand it smaller particles get ‘stuck’ in the maze of fibres and are statistically unlikely to find there way through the mask. The best analogy I can think of is a spec of dust finding its way into a centre of a huge labarynth that is vibrating randomly in all directions (and coated in honey). Some respirator masks also contain anti viral coatings and are electrostaticaly charged.

splaytreemap 6y ago

Some companies (Southwest Airlines for example) will refuse service to you if you're wearing a non-standard mask. Wearing the disposable blue surgical masks is the best bet if you don't want to be randomly denied access to somewhere you're going.

r00fus 6y ago
I wear reusable masks every day. If I go on a plane, yeah I also have disposable masks for those events. Do you have any non-travel related examples where they don't also hand out said masks?

dheera 6y ago

Simple reasons: - The cloth masks don't form a tight seal and leave two gaping holes on either side of my nose. - The cloth masks don't have as fine a filter mesh and aren't as effective at filtering tiny particles. That said, I don't go out that often, and my trips are limited in time, so I reuse a disposable N95/KN95 mask until I've worn it for as much as a total of 30-100 hours before I dispose of it. I also use reusable everything else wherever I can in my life, I just haven't found any actually good reusable masks that would pass e.g. NIOSH tests.

yunesj 6y ago
3M respirators with P100 filters have a comfortable silicone seal, aren’t very expensive, and actually prevent the wearer from infection. We settled on a public policy where we are only as safe as the worst mask an infected person is wearing. I would have preferred an alternative policy where people who don’t want to get sick simply wear an effective mask. I do encourage covering the exhale valve, though, just to be extra safe and considerate.
- zucked 6y ago
  I have respirators and filters left over from home improvement projects - have you ever tried to communicate through those? Your voice takes on this indescribable warbly tone. I wouldn't want to try and accomplish any errands wearing one of those. Maybe if I were riding public transit and able to not speak to anyone...
  - yunesj 6y ago
    I don't have a lot of daily errands; mostly just picking up coffee or food outside and to go. I don't talk to people for that (except to say thanks!), and don't wear the P100 because it's low risk. Places I've worn the P100: an airplane, grocery store, train, Uber, medical lab for a test. I found the peace of mind alone was well worth the inconvenience in these scenarios.
- dheera 6y ago
  I don't quite understand the policy argument. Can you explain the difference in the 2 policies? The main policy issues I see are (a) unavailability of good masks, not ramping up mask production, not controlling hoarding with strict consequences (b) advocating for not wearing masks

00deadbeef 6y ago

Face masks make me sweat like crazy so I’ve been using disposables for hygiene reasons

spullara 6y ago

I found out first hand that when you enter most hospitals they make you replace your mask with a disposable surgical mask.

fomine3 6y ago

I don't believe myself to be able to always manage fabric mask clean. Possibly dirt mask is worse than nothing, so I always wear disposable mask. Also I heard that non woven mask works better than fabric.