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How many such routes are there in Europe? Checked a bunch and seems like 9 hours is a decent timing even for the fastest train option. While by plane you're alw

How many such routes are there in Europe? Checked a bunch and seems like 9 hours is a decent timing even for the fastest train option. While by plane you're always looking at something under 2 hours.

Broken_Hippo 6y ago
Does your flight include all of your travel time? I mean, I can be at the train station fairly quickly (10 minute walk): The airport is out of town and I'd take a bus - an earlier bus than I think I need just to be safe. Does the flight mean that you get a hotel that you could skip on a night train? How long are you waiting at the airport? Airport time isn't just flight time.
- auganov 6y ago
  The main point is the ideal night train scenario as per grandparent comment could be rare. Checked a number of possible 1000km routes [0], most were over 10h. Found just one that took 8h, Paris - Berlin. And these are not night trains. The night train for Paris Berlin seems to take 12 hours. I traveled a relatively short distance by plane recently and the airport time+location overhead was just about 1 hour (got from one house to my other house in 2 hours with a 1h flight). And the train would have about 20 mins of overhead. So the effective overhead was more like 40 mins in this specific case. Of course it could be much worse for many routes. But probably mostly under 2h even under very unfavorable conditions. So you're looking at 3-4h by plane. [0] and was being pretty generous by only checking western europe too. In many parts of Europe buses can be faster than trains.
  - lmm 6y ago
    Berlin is the end of that route, so the arrival is a bit later than ideal - Paris to Hannover (say) will be more conveniently timed. Maybe the ideal pairs are 800km rather than 1000km, but there's quite a few of them - I've done London-Glasgow, Paris-Munich, Munich-Budapest, Paris-Rome, Turin-Salerno. Even if it does end up being 10 or 12 hours, it can still be more convenient than a night flight in terms of "can I finish work here at 18:00, have a decent dinner and a good night's sleep, and be ready to start work here at 09:00" - that's the question that actually matters. > got from one house to my other house in 2 hours with a 1h flight That sounds pretty exceptional. 45 minutes is usually given as the minimum time to go through airport security, since you have to allow enough time to not miss your flight if you do get pulled out for some reason (or be prepared to sometimes miss your flight, I guess). Airports are usually about an hour away from anywhere in the city you're going to. So I'd say 3 hours' overhead is the norm, and it gets worse if you're trying to fly after a day's work because the transport system of the place you're going to is usually shutting down by the time you arrive.
    - auganov 6y ago
      > That sounds pretty exceptional. 45 minutes is usually given as the minimum time to go through airport security, since you have to allow enough time to not miss your flight if you do get pulled out for some reason (or be prepared to sometimes miss your flight, I guess). Airports are usually about an hour away from anywhere in the city you're going to. So I'd say 3 hours' overhead is the norm, and it gets worse if you're trying to fly after a day's work because the transport system of the place you're going to is usually shutting down by the time you arrive. This document [0] has airport-to-city-center-by-taxi timings for top European airports. 1 hour seems to be the absolute worst, 27 min average, 22 min median. And it only gets better with smaller cities [1]. Almost any airport nowadays lets you walk in with your boarding pass. You scan it, go through security and go straight to the gate. You'd need to be very unlucky with unusually clogged security (unlikely early in the morning). Or be dealing with a huge airport where it takes a long time to get to the gate. Boarding for short flights shouldn't close earlier than 20 minutes before departure. For large airports 40 mins should be enough. For tiny regional airports 30. Even check-in counters will sometimes close as late as 30 mins before departure. Also note that the arrival time given on the ticket, isn't touchdown time. It's either aircraft door open or final parking. There's often a bit of padding added too. So for arrival 10 extra minutes should be the absolute worst case. Very conservative average for first-time travel between sizable EU cities: 50 mins before departure + 2 x 30 mins for taxis + 10 mins for exiting the airport = 120 min = 2 hours. Subtract 10-30 minutes for repeat travelers. In my example I was going from a small city to a capital city and the breakdown was roughly: 10m taxi + 30m before departure (20m would have been fine too!) + 20m taxi + 0m for exit (disembarked before claimed arrival time) = 1 hour. Need to be very unlucky to hit 3 hours. [0] https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/transport/files/modes/air/studies/doc/intermodality/2010-airport-accessibility-in-eu.pdf https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/transport/files/modes/a... [1] in my example the airport was in fact closer to my house than the train station. No other departures at the same time, 0 people in line for security, 1 minute walk to the gate.
      - lmm 6y ago
        > This document [0] has airport-to-city-center-by-taxi timings for top European airports. 1 hour seems to be the absolute worst, 27 min average, 22 min median. And it only gets better with smaller cities [1]. Sure; rail times were what I was assuming; your document puts them in the region of 40 minutes from a "hub" (though there's a lot of variation), so I stand by about an hour from a typical origin/destination. If you routinely take taxis then fair enough, but that comes with its own set of downsides. > Boarding for short flights shouldn't close earlier than 20 minutes before departure. For large airports 40 mins should be enough. For tiny regional airports 30. Even check-in counters will sometimes close as late as 30 mins before departure. I've never seen an airport that didn't officially advise 45 minutes, and every major airport I've been to had check-in counters closing an hour before departure. (Whereas, Eurostar excepted, the official number I've heard from train operators is 5 minutes). You can probably get away with less most of the time, sure, but I wouldn't want to take the risk.
morsch 6y ago
They stopped service on many routes in the last 10 to 15 years, this news is about rolling back that policy. 9 hours is kind of the ideal length for a night train journey, e.g. board at 11 pm, arrive at 8 am.
jnxx 6y ago
You need to compare door-to-door time which is a lot longer for air travel, partly because the airports are outside of the cities while the train stations are in their very heart.
- matkoniecz 6y ago
  Also, getting onto plane from arrival at airport takes far more than what is needed from arrival at train station to getting into train.
vidarh 6y ago
You want sleeper services to take long enough that you don't end up with interrupted sleep. They're not competing on speed. They're competing on comfort in a scenario where getting there faster doesn't help you.

How many such routes are there in Europe? Checked a bunch and seems like 9 hours is a decent timing even for the fastest train option. While by plane you're always looking at something under 2 hours.

Broken_Hippo 6y ago

Does your flight include all of your travel time? I mean, I can be at the train station fairly quickly (10 minute walk): The airport is out of town and I'd take a bus - an earlier bus than I think I need just to be safe. Does the flight mean that you get a hotel that you could skip on a night train? How long are you waiting at the airport? Airport time isn't just flight time.

auganov 6y ago
The main point is the ideal night train scenario as per grandparent comment could be rare. Checked a number of possible 1000km routes [0], most were over 10h. Found just one that took 8h, Paris - Berlin. And these are not night trains. The night train for Paris Berlin seems to take 12 hours. I traveled a relatively short distance by plane recently and the airport time+location overhead was just about 1 hour (got from one house to my other house in 2 hours with a 1h flight). And the train would have about 20 mins of overhead. So the effective overhead was more like 40 mins in this specific case. Of course it could be much worse for many routes. But probably mostly under 2h even under very unfavorable conditions. So you're looking at 3-4h by plane. [0] and was being pretty generous by only checking western europe too. In many parts of Europe buses can be faster than trains.
- lmm 6y ago
  Berlin is the end of that route, so the arrival is a bit later than ideal - Paris to Hannover (say) will be more conveniently timed. Maybe the ideal pairs are 800km rather than 1000km, but there's quite a few of them - I've done London-Glasgow, Paris-Munich, Munich-Budapest, Paris-Rome, Turin-Salerno. Even if it does end up being 10 or 12 hours, it can still be more convenient than a night flight in terms of "can I finish work here at 18:00, have a decent dinner and a good night's sleep, and be ready to start work here at 09:00" - that's the question that actually matters. > got from one house to my other house in 2 hours with a 1h flight That sounds pretty exceptional. 45 minutes is usually given as the minimum time to go through airport security, since you have to allow enough time to not miss your flight if you do get pulled out for some reason (or be prepared to sometimes miss your flight, I guess). Airports are usually about an hour away from anywhere in the city you're going to. So I'd say 3 hours' overhead is the norm, and it gets worse if you're trying to fly after a day's work because the transport system of the place you're going to is usually shutting down by the time you arrive.
  - auganov 6y ago
    > That sounds pretty exceptional. 45 minutes is usually given as the minimum time to go through airport security, since you have to allow enough time to not miss your flight if you do get pulled out for some reason (or be prepared to sometimes miss your flight, I guess). Airports are usually about an hour away from anywhere in the city you're going to. So I'd say 3 hours' overhead is the norm, and it gets worse if you're trying to fly after a day's work because the transport system of the place you're going to is usually shutting down by the time you arrive. This document [0] has airport-to-city-center-by-taxi timings for top European airports. 1 hour seems to be the absolute worst, 27 min average, 22 min median. And it only gets better with smaller cities [1]. Almost any airport nowadays lets you walk in with your boarding pass. You scan it, go through security and go straight to the gate. You'd need to be very unlucky with unusually clogged security (unlikely early in the morning). Or be dealing with a huge airport where it takes a long time to get to the gate. Boarding for short flights shouldn't close earlier than 20 minutes before departure. For large airports 40 mins should be enough. For tiny regional airports 30. Even check-in counters will sometimes close as late as 30 mins before departure. Also note that the arrival time given on the ticket, isn't touchdown time. It's either aircraft door open or final parking. There's often a bit of padding added too. So for arrival 10 extra minutes should be the absolute worst case. Very conservative average for first-time travel between sizable EU cities: 50 mins before departure + 2 x 30 mins for taxis + 10 mins for exiting the airport = 120 min = 2 hours. Subtract 10-30 minutes for repeat travelers. In my example I was going from a small city to a capital city and the breakdown was roughly: 10m taxi + 30m before departure (20m would have been fine too!) + 20m taxi + 0m for exit (disembarked before claimed arrival time) = 1 hour. Need to be very unlucky to hit 3 hours. [0] https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/transport/files/modes/air/studies/doc/intermodality/2010-airport-accessibility-in-eu.pdf https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/transport/files/modes/a... [1] in my example the airport was in fact closer to my house than the train station. No other departures at the same time, 0 people in line for security, 1 minute walk to the gate.
    - lmm 6y ago
      > This document [0] has airport-to-city-center-by-taxi timings for top European airports. 1 hour seems to be the absolute worst, 27 min average, 22 min median. And it only gets better with smaller cities [1]. Sure; rail times were what I was assuming; your document puts them in the region of 40 minutes from a "hub" (though there's a lot of variation), so I stand by about an hour from a typical origin/destination. If you routinely take taxis then fair enough, but that comes with its own set of downsides. > Boarding for short flights shouldn't close earlier than 20 minutes before departure. For large airports 40 mins should be enough. For tiny regional airports 30. Even check-in counters will sometimes close as late as 30 mins before departure. I've never seen an airport that didn't officially advise 45 minutes, and every major airport I've been to had check-in counters closing an hour before departure. (Whereas, Eurostar excepted, the official number I've heard from train operators is 5 minutes). You can probably get away with less most of the time, sure, but I wouldn't want to take the risk.

morsch 6y ago

They stopped service on many routes in the last 10 to 15 years, this news is about rolling back that policy. 9 hours is kind of the ideal length for a night train journey, e.g. board at 11 pm, arrive at 8 am.

jnxx 6y ago

You need to compare door-to-door time which is a lot longer for air travel, partly because the airports are outside of the cities while the train stations are in their very heart.

matkoniecz 6y ago
Also, getting onto plane from arrival at airport takes far more than what is needed from arrival at train station to getting into train.

vidarh 6y ago

You want sleeper services to take long enough that you don't end up with interrupted sleep. They're not competing on speed. They're competing on comfort in a scenario where getting there faster doesn't help you.