12 ms·

WavesMesh: Pay-what-you-can community-owned ISP for Baltimore

179 points by ignoramous 6y ago

deathanatos 6y ago
I'm curious what sort of bandwidth they supply? Their suggested monthly donation of $20/mo is quite reasonable (less than what I pay!), and presumably that subsidizes those less able to pay. (Though, I presume they wouldn't mind a larger donation, if one made one.) (I'm not in the Baltimore area, so I can't really make use, but this is a neat-sounding project.)
- ignoramous 6y ago
  The website faq says 25mbps. https://projectwaves.net/faq https://projectwaves.net/faq
posguy 6y ago
Have you registered to accept Lifeline subsidies? There is one ISP I know of that does Ubiquiti deployments in MDUs that have a high proportion of Lifeline qualifying residences, as it is an economical way to provide very fast broadband to the poorest members of society. https://www.fcc.gov/general/lifeline-program-low-income-consumers https://www.fcc.gov/general/lifeline-program-low-income-cons...
runnedrun 6y ago
Love this. How long has this been going for? Also excuse my ignorance of mesh networks: how does the mesh connect back to the internet? Is that going through an ISP, or are you trying to circumvent ISPs altogether?
- iptrans 6y ago
  > how does the mesh connect back to the internet? The same way any other network connects to the Internet, through an ISP. Nominally you can be an ISP yourself, but you still need to buy capacity from other network providers.
ibraheemmmoosa 6y ago
I wonder if this is economically viable.
- sushshshsh 6y ago
  What happens when freeloaders show up? Perpetual energy?
  - gabriel_shatana 6y ago
    It's the tragedy of the commons
  - samoa42 6y ago
    i guess there is hope that whales or public funding will cover them
  - dddw 6y ago
    Fair use policy?
  - rektide 6y ago
    The marginal cost for most extra users is tiny, so, nothing happens. Freeloaders welcome. But please pay; there are some pretty serious costs. If a user does start using an inordinate amount of resources, perhaps they can be throttled. Or asked to pay a little more than they had been paying.
rootsudo 6y ago
You shouldn't publicly post your EIN on your web page. It is similar to a business SSN, while it is not truly private, there is more you can lose by having it publicly display then just redacting it all-together.
- goldenkey 6y ago
  Non profit EINs are public knowledge. Perhaps they are non-profit?
  - rootsudo 6y ago
    No, all EIN's are public per se, but they are used as an SSN for getting credit, etc. They are on annual reports, sure but that requires some work vs just having it on the website.
    - nolliesnom 6y ago
      There is zero risk for a nonprofit to publish their EIN widely. It's already on Guidestar and Charity Navigator and usually discoverable with a simple Google search. There is also a ton of value. It makes people who donate more confident that their donations made through corporate gift matching or donor advised funds are going to the right place.
calgoo 6y ago
If anyone is interested, guifi.net has been functioning for years here in Spain / EU. Works good, we even have a internet provider that can connect you using guifi.net. Basically, it gives you access to their exit nodes instead of exits that are private. There is also ongoing fiber rollout in rural areas and some dark fiber usage in the city.
StartupTree 6y ago
This is free broadband? How is that sustainable?
- gigatexal 6y ago
  They all for donations and and installation fee
1MachineElf 6y ago
Their sponsor is Digital Harbor Foundation on Baltimore's Light St. Why am I not surprised? They run a makerspace. It's awesome for Baltimore. It was the first ever location I went to in that city, for a Baltimore Node School event in 2014: https://nodeschool.io/baltimore/ https://nodeschool.io/baltimore/
drblah 6y ago
I find these kinds of projects very interesting. It is just too bad the site does not talk about the technology they use (or maybe I am just not seeing it?). I am interested in this because I have recently been working on simulation studies of large Ad Hoc networks where we look at the B.A.T.M.A.N protocol. It was originally built for use in the Freifunk (https://freifunk.net/en/ https://freifunk.net/en/) network in Germany which is similar to Project Waves. Its fascinating what a bunch of nerds with a mission can put together.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
exo762 6y ago
They could have gone with Althea design and have both freeloader and sustainability problem solved. Instead they did this...
- imw 6y ago
  Not everything needs to be financialized/transactionalized. In this case I am not really sure what it would solve. The capital costs of building networks like these, when you factor in the know-how and time required to build and scale a WISP, are really far beyond the bandwidth costs, which appears to be all that Althea accounts for. Passing the hat to cover gateway costs seems like a fine approach to me.
Zeing0Ch 6y ago
This should be illegal, how could private enterprises possibly compete with community organized ISPs? You have to take into account the increase in profit every ISP has to make every year. How is the industry going to survive if you allow competition from ISP's that do not need to make profit? Many cities are already making this illegal, hopefully Baltimore realizes how damaging this truly is for business.
- Olreich 6y ago
  Considering how much the world relies on internet, maybe it’s a good thing that current ISPs get out-competed by non-profit, community owned ones.
- ashneo76 6y ago
  Access to information shouldn't be a price gouging business. This is amazing. Comcast, Verizon and ATT can go rot in hell
- jxf 6y ago
  This doesn't seem like a very compelling argument to me. They serve different purposes. Do Habitat for Humanity stores put Home Depot out of business? Do food banks put grocery stores out of business? Does offering free water as a drink put bars out of business? Same product category, very different markets.
  - Zeing0Ch 6y ago
    I think your comparisons are terrible, they are either not the same product at all or exactly the same argument applies. Of course food banks should (and are in many places) be means tested, so as not to compete with grocery stores. You can't compare water with booze, there may be an argument of tab water competing unfairly with bottled water though. In this case, 25 MBit/s is 25 Mbit/s there is no difference in service between a community ISP and a commercial/public company ISP except the price.
    - jxf 6y ago
ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
I lived in Baltimore, from 1980-83. Back then, it was a blue-collar town, but not like The Wire. It has broken my heart to see what has happened there, since, but I know that it's a really strong town, and I'm glad to see this.
dx87 6y ago
Considering the name of the ISP, it feels like a missed an opportunity not marketing "no data cap" as "no wave cap".
digdugdirk 6y ago
Would it be possible to add a blockchain (/blockchain-like) layer to a network like this that is tied to your node's provided throughput? I.e. - I pay for a node in the network, and get paid incrementally every time someone accesses the network via my node? The payment being slightly higher based on the speed/bandwidth of the node I've provided. I imagine the payment could be a combination of a "pay what you can" donation as in this example, and a generated coin based on the increase in value of having a network like this in a regional area.
- rienbdj 6y ago
  The overhead of the blockchain would be too much compared to the bandwidth provided most likely.
- cowsandmilk 6y ago
  See https://www.helium.com/ https://www.helium.com/ for an effort focused on iot and device companies rather than home internet.
- ignoramous 6y ago
  > I pay for a node in the network, and get paid incrementally every time someone accesses the network via my node? The payment being slightly higher based on the speed/bandwidth of the node I've provided. Thats exactly what new-age dVPNs like Orchid and Mysterium do. You can share your "residential IP" and bandwith with other dVPN users in exchange for crypto micro-payments. Also see Golem, Elastos, and other such Web3 initiatives.
- vorpalhex 6y ago
  That would not be free, that would be very expensive - it just wouldn't be expensive in direct billing.
jtxx 6y ago
this is awesome. really excited to see more community owned ISPs picking up. if you’re interested in community owned meshes, there’s one in NYC [0] and after searching I see Miluwalkee [1] and LA [2] have projects in progress. I’m sure there’s other projects happening in other places too, and they’re usually looking for volunteers - check out what’s going on in your town, and maybe start something if you can’t find anyone! [0] https://www.nycmesh.net/ https://www.nycmesh.net/ [1] https://mkemesh.org/ https://mkemesh.org/ [2] https://laxmesh.net/ https://laxmesh.net/
amhoab 6y ago
Regarding Comcast pricing being out of reach, what are your thoughts on their low-income program, https://www.internetessentials.com https://www.internetessentials.com? It's 25Mbps for $10/mo. There are probably hoops to jump through, but it does seem within reach otherwise.

179 points by ignoramous 6y ago

I'm curious what sort of bandwidth they supply? Their suggested monthly donation of $20/mo is quite reasonable (less than what I pay!), and presumably that subsidizes those less able to pay. (Though, I presume they wouldn't mind a larger donation, if one made one.) (I'm not in the Baltimore area, so I can't really make use, but this is a neat-sounding project.)

ignoramous 6y ago
The website faq says 25mbps. https://projectwaves.net/faq https://projectwaves.net/faq

posguy 6y ago

Have you registered to accept Lifeline subsidies? There is one ISP I know of that does Ubiquiti deployments in MDUs that have a high proportion of Lifeline qualifying residences, as it is an economical way to provide very fast broadband to the poorest members of society. https://www.fcc.gov/general/lifeline-program-low-income-consumers https://www.fcc.gov/general/lifeline-program-low-income-cons...

runnedrun 6y ago

Love this. How long has this been going for? Also excuse my ignorance of mesh networks: how does the mesh connect back to the internet? Is that going through an ISP, or are you trying to circumvent ISPs altogether?

iptrans 6y ago
> how does the mesh connect back to the internet? The same way any other network connects to the Internet, through an ISP. Nominally you can be an ISP yourself, but you still need to buy capacity from other network providers.

ibraheemmmoosa 6y ago

I wonder if this is economically viable.

sushshshsh 6y ago
What happens when freeloaders show up? Perpetual energy?
- gabriel_shatana 6y ago
  It's the tragedy of the commons
- samoa42 6y ago
  i guess there is hope that whales or public funding will cover them
- dddw 6y ago
  Fair use policy?
- rektide 6y ago
  The marginal cost for most extra users is tiny, so, nothing happens. Freeloaders welcome. But please pay; there are some pretty serious costs. If a user does start using an inordinate amount of resources, perhaps they can be throttled. Or asked to pay a little more than they had been paying.

rootsudo 6y ago

You shouldn't publicly post your EIN on your web page. It is similar to a business SSN, while it is not truly private, there is more you can lose by having it publicly display then just redacting it all-together.

goldenkey 6y ago
Non profit EINs are public knowledge. Perhaps they are non-profit?
- rootsudo 6y ago
  No, all EIN's are public per se, but they are used as an SSN for getting credit, etc. They are on annual reports, sure but that requires some work vs just having it on the website.
  - nolliesnom 6y ago
    There is zero risk for a nonprofit to publish their EIN widely. It's already on Guidestar and Charity Navigator and usually discoverable with a simple Google search. There is also a ton of value. It makes people who donate more confident that their donations made through corporate gift matching or donor advised funds are going to the right place.

calgoo 6y ago

If anyone is interested, guifi.net has been functioning for years here in Spain / EU. Works good, we even have a internet provider that can connect you using guifi.net. Basically, it gives you access to their exit nodes instead of exits that are private. There is also ongoing fiber rollout in rural areas and some dark fiber usage in the city.

StartupTree 6y ago

This is free broadband? How is that sustainable?

gigatexal 6y ago
They all for donations and and installation fee

1MachineElf 6y ago

Their sponsor is Digital Harbor Foundation on Baltimore's Light St. Why am I not surprised? They run a makerspace. It's awesome for Baltimore. It was the first ever location I went to in that city, for a Baltimore Node School event in 2014: https://nodeschool.io/baltimore/ https://nodeschool.io/baltimore/

drblah 6y ago

I find these kinds of projects very interesting. It is just too bad the site does not talk about the technology they use (or maybe I am just not seeing it?). I am interested in this because I have recently been working on simulation studies of large Ad Hoc networks where we look at the B.A.T.M.A.N protocol. It was originally built for use in the Freifunk (https://freifunk.net/en/ https://freifunk.net/en/) network in Germany which is similar to Project Waves. Its fascinating what a bunch of nerds with a mission can put together.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

exo762 6y ago

They could have gone with Althea design and have both freeloader and sustainability problem solved. Instead they did this...

imw 6y ago
Not everything needs to be financialized/transactionalized. In this case I am not really sure what it would solve. The capital costs of building networks like these, when you factor in the know-how and time required to build and scale a WISP, are really far beyond the bandwidth costs, which appears to be all that Althea accounts for. Passing the hat to cover gateway costs seems like a fine approach to me.

Zeing0Ch 6y ago

This should be illegal, how could private enterprises possibly compete with community organized ISPs? You have to take into account the increase in profit every ISP has to make every year. How is the industry going to survive if you allow competition from ISP's that do not need to make profit? Many cities are already making this illegal, hopefully Baltimore realizes how damaging this truly is for business.

Olreich 6y ago
Considering how much the world relies on internet, maybe it’s a good thing that current ISPs get out-competed by non-profit, community owned ones.
ashneo76 6y ago
Access to information shouldn't be a price gouging business. This is amazing. Comcast, Verizon and ATT can go rot in hell
jxf 6y ago
This doesn't seem like a very compelling argument to me. They serve different purposes. Do Habitat for Humanity stores put Home Depot out of business? Do food banks put grocery stores out of business? Does offering free water as a drink put bars out of business? Same product category, very different markets.
- Zeing0Ch 6y ago
  I think your comparisons are terrible, they are either not the same product at all or exactly the same argument applies. Of course food banks should (and are in many places) be means tested, so as not to compete with grocery stores. You can't compare water with booze, there may be an argument of tab water competing unfairly with bottled water though. In this case, 25 MBit/s is 25 Mbit/s there is no difference in service between a community ISP and a commercial/public company ISP except the price.
  - jxf 6y ago

ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago

I lived in Baltimore, from 1980-83. Back then, it was a blue-collar town, but not like The Wire. It has broken my heart to see what has happened there, since, but I know that it's a really strong town, and I'm glad to see this.

dx87 6y ago

Considering the name of the ISP, it feels like a missed an opportunity not marketing "no data cap" as "no wave cap".

digdugdirk 6y ago

Would it be possible to add a blockchain (/blockchain-like) layer to a network like this that is tied to your node's provided throughput? I.e. - I pay for a node in the network, and get paid incrementally every time someone accesses the network via my node? The payment being slightly higher based on the speed/bandwidth of the node I've provided. I imagine the payment could be a combination of a "pay what you can" donation as in this example, and a generated coin based on the increase in value of having a network like this in a regional area.

rienbdj 6y ago
The overhead of the blockchain would be too much compared to the bandwidth provided most likely.
cowsandmilk 6y ago
See https://www.helium.com/ https://www.helium.com/ for an effort focused on iot and device companies rather than home internet.
ignoramous 6y ago
> I pay for a node in the network, and get paid incrementally every time someone accesses the network via my node? The payment being slightly higher based on the speed/bandwidth of the node I've provided. Thats exactly what new-age dVPNs like Orchid and Mysterium do. You can share your "residential IP" and bandwith with other dVPN users in exchange for crypto micro-payments. Also see Golem, Elastos, and other such Web3 initiatives.
vorpalhex 6y ago
That would not be free, that would be very expensive - it just wouldn't be expensive in direct billing.

jtxx 6y ago

this is awesome. really excited to see more community owned ISPs picking up. if you’re interested in community owned meshes, there’s one in NYC [0] and after searching I see Miluwalkee [1] and LA [2] have projects in progress. I’m sure there’s other projects happening in other places too, and they’re usually looking for volunteers - check out what’s going on in your town, and maybe start something if you can’t find anyone! [0] https://www.nycmesh.net/ https://www.nycmesh.net/ [1] https://mkemesh.org/ https://mkemesh.org/ [2] https://laxmesh.net/ https://laxmesh.net/

amhoab 6y ago

Regarding Comcast pricing being out of reach, what are your thoughts on their low-income program, https://www.internetessentials.com https://www.internetessentials.com? It's 25Mbps for $10/mo. There are probably hoops to jump through, but it does seem within reach otherwise.