6 ms·

Honestly, as a driver and pedestrian, I don’t have a lot of sympathy for bicyclists. In my city, at least, I’ve almost been hit by cyclists multiple times as a

by D13Fd 6y ago

Honestly, as a driver and pedestrian, I don’t have a lot of sympathy for bicyclists. In my city, at least, I’ve almost been hit by cyclists multiple times as a pedestrian. In one case, the cyclist was going the wrong way, blatantly ran the light, and screamed at me as he passed within maybe two-three feet of me at full speed while I was crossing the street. In another case, a cyclist blew by my at full speed down a steep hill on the sidewalk, again coming stupidly close to an accident (for both of us) for no reason. As a driver, I constantly see cyclists on the wrong side of the street, back and forth between the sidewalk and not, and not obeying stop signs or stop lights (let alone other rules). I’ve never even heard of one being ticketed. I’m all for new bike lanes that are separated from traffic. But honestly before a city encourages more bike riders I really think they need to dramatically step up enforcement of traffic laws against them. If running a red light or stop sign is a $200 ticket in a car, it should be a $200 ticket on a bike. Otherwise it is just unsafe for everyone involved.

enriquto 6y ago
> If running a red light or stop sign is a $200 ticket in a car, it should be a $200 ticket on a bike. Curiously; in France many red-lights are excepted for bicycles. There's often a special, permanent "orange" signal that applies to bikes, thus they are explicitly encouraged to run the red light. If I understand well, this was in agreement with drivers, who were annoyed to wait for all the bikes to start slowly after the light turns green. I think that if you ever try to use a bicycle in transit (I mean, seriously over a few days, not for 5 minutes), you will see that it is essentially impossible to do correctly. Sometimes you have to turn left across many lanes of fast cars, what are you supposed to do? Inevitably you take the least dangerous path.
- leetcrew 6y ago
  I rode a bike as my sole form of transportation for a few years. it's not "impossible" to do correctly, but it may be impossible to do without exceeding the amount of effort you're willing to exert. > Sometimes you have to turn left across many lanes of fast cars, what are you supposed to do? one of the great things about biking is that you get to pick and choose between car rules and pedestrian rules depending on which set fits the situation best. whenever I am uncomfortable making a left turn, I pull off to the right and cross the intersection like a pedestrian.
  - enriquto 6y ago
    > one of the great things about biking is that you get to pick and choose between car rules and pedestrian rules Oh, I hate that! Bikes are transit, and are not supposed to leave the transit in the middle of their way, especially not for negotiating an intersection. Bailing out of the bike and going on foot with the pedestrians does not count as "doing the correct thing", just that using the bike is impossible. Besides, it is annoying for the pedestrians.
gumby 6y ago
Cars took over the bicycle infrastructure; if we had dedicated bike infrastructure as we do for cars I think you'd see things a lot better. Sure there are self-righteous creeps in every subculture, but a lot of the things you see are consequences of adapting to a dangerous environment maladapted for bike use. Bike infrastructure in a lot of European cities demonstrates that it can work. American drivers are much more polite than European ones yet kill more cyclists per capita.
- Symbiote 6y ago
  > American drivers are much more polite than European ones I don't know about American drivers, but you certainly shouldn't say e.g. Swedish and French drivers are equally impolite.
  - gumby 6y ago
    I’ve been equally terrified crossing the street on a Saturday night in Södermalm as in the 6e Arrondissement.
taeric 6y ago
I suspect there is a fair bit of confirmation bias in what you are noticing. I say this as a biker that also notices these things. I also notice them from drivers all the time, as well. Is it stupid when a cyclist runs a stop sign? Yes. The same as a car doing it. And people are notorious for not stopping well if they are going to take a right. Such that we design for the behavior with round abouts. Car or bike. Meanwhile, both times I've been hit, the car turned right not checking that there was a biker in the bike lane right next to them.
- fastball 6y ago
  I'm not sure the confirmation bias matters here. The GC seems to be a comment replying to a lot of sentiment in this thread which is basically "the driver is always at fault". Given what I'm sure we've all seen from cyclists (and the things I've done as a cyclist), I can confirm that this is definitely not the case.
  - taeric 6y ago
    Your rhetorical style isn't helping. From what we have all seen from drivers, nobody should be allowed to drive a car. :)
    - fastball 6y ago
      What's wrong with my rhetorical style?
      - taeric 6y ago
        I meant just the clause I parrotted. It begs the question regarding what we've all seen/done.
1over137 6y ago
>If running a red light or stop sign is a $200 ticket in a car, it should be a $200 ticket on a bike. Why? They are different crimes. Cars are faster and heavier, thus will injure someone much more when misused.
- bigbubba 6y ago
  By that logic, should the fines car drivers face scale with the weight of their vehicle? Is blowing through a redlight in a small sports car a lesser crime than doing the same with a large pickup truck? I'm receptive to this, but I doubt it would ever be implemented.
  - jimmytidey 6y ago
    Yes. Or you could use a system of weight categories, for example one category for cars and one for bikes.
  - taeric 6y ago
    The fines probably do scale up as the class of the vehicle scales up. In large because you can lose your job if you are a bus or truck driver and do this.
    - dmurray 6y ago
      Or, you pay more for insurance for a more powerful car, and the main impact of the ticket is not the monetary fine but an increase in premiums.
  - noobermin 6y ago
    I think SUVs should br taxed actually, as well as trucks that have no commercial purpose, althouh that is a separate issue.
- varjag 6y ago
  A cyclist absolutely can get badly injured when running red, arguably more likely than a car driver.
fastball 6y ago
Not sure why you're getting downvotes, you make a great point. Bicyclists (I am one) apparently want to have their cake and eat it too: driving all over the place (sidewalk, street, wrong way, etc) while at the same time wanting drivers to always be at fault for collisions.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- matsemann 6y ago
  No, it's a stupid point, repeatedly being made. Why should cyclists be judged as a group by their worst members, but drivers as individuals? As a driver, I think all roads should be closed for anyone else but cyclists. I'm a driver, you can't argue with my point, as I represent all drivers. "As an X person" is really good for discourse..
rossjudson 6y ago
I say this as someone who commutes by bike whenever possible -- there are some real assholes riding on the paths. It turns out that riding a bike does not change who you are, fundamentally. If those cyclists owned diesel pickups, they'd be coal-rolling with the best of them. I used to cross a bridge to get to work. There was a shared pedestrian/cycle pathway, about 6 feet wide, with cycles yielding to pedestrians. I remember walking across that one time with my family, including my daughter who was about 3. This one jerk rang no bell and blew past my entire family, about a foot away, at 20+ MPH. I didn't even hear him coming from behind. 3 year olds are prone to random movements. If she had moved by a foot or two at exactly the wrong time, it would have been a very bad situation. On the plus side, the cyclist behind the asshole (who properly rang his bell and passed us) stopped at the end of the bridge to apologize for the first guy.
uxp100 6y ago
Running a stop sign is a not a ticket. Nothing is a ticket. I regularly see drivers going 20 MPH the speed limit in the bike lane passing or even into on coming traffic forcing people off the road, all without plates. I don’t think I’ve seen a car pulled over on city streets in my life. It’s just normal for cars to run red lights and stop signs, to veer drunkenly all over the road, and to go 50 in a 30, and to shout slurs and spit on pedestrians.
dmurray 6y ago
> If running a red light or stop sign is a $200 ticket in a car, it should be a $200 ticket on a bike. Hard to justify when safety is the main argument. Yeah, $200 fine for cyclists would be a good deterrent, but maybe then it should be a $1000 or $2000 fine for a car doing the same thing [0]. If you want to argue that cyclists should face the same penalties as drivers, you have to make an argument prioritizing safety, but something like "respect for the law". [0] Or - $200 plus points on your license. That's the way it works in many jurisdictions: the motorist rightly faces a bigger penalty even though the top-line dollar amount is the same.
vehemenz 6y ago
1. Your lack of sympathy comes from false generalizations about cyclist behavior. You tend to remember the egregious behavior and likely give a pass to drivers doing more dangerous (although common) stuff. 2. Drivers commit as many, if not more traffic violations than cyclists—and the consequences are much greater. 3. Your opinion would almost certainly change if you had to commute by bicycle.

by D13Fd 6y ago

enriquto 6y ago

> If running a red light or stop sign is a $200 ticket in a car, it should be a $200 ticket on a bike. Curiously; in France many red-lights are excepted for bicycles. There's often a special, permanent "orange" signal that applies to bikes, thus they are explicitly encouraged to run the red light. If I understand well, this was in agreement with drivers, who were annoyed to wait for all the bikes to start slowly after the light turns green. I think that if you ever try to use a bicycle in transit (I mean, seriously over a few days, not for 5 minutes), you will see that it is essentially impossible to do correctly. Sometimes you have to turn left across many lanes of fast cars, what are you supposed to do? Inevitably you take the least dangerous path.

leetcrew 6y ago
I rode a bike as my sole form of transportation for a few years. it's not "impossible" to do correctly, but it may be impossible to do without exceeding the amount of effort you're willing to exert. > Sometimes you have to turn left across many lanes of fast cars, what are you supposed to do? one of the great things about biking is that you get to pick and choose between car rules and pedestrian rules depending on which set fits the situation best. whenever I am uncomfortable making a left turn, I pull off to the right and cross the intersection like a pedestrian.
- enriquto 6y ago
  > one of the great things about biking is that you get to pick and choose between car rules and pedestrian rules Oh, I hate that! Bikes are transit, and are not supposed to leave the transit in the middle of their way, especially not for negotiating an intersection. Bailing out of the bike and going on foot with the pedestrians does not count as "doing the correct thing", just that using the bike is impossible. Besides, it is annoying for the pedestrians.

gumby 6y ago

Cars took over the bicycle infrastructure; if we had dedicated bike infrastructure as we do for cars I think you'd see things a lot better. Sure there are self-righteous creeps in every subculture, but a lot of the things you see are consequences of adapting to a dangerous environment maladapted for bike use. Bike infrastructure in a lot of European cities demonstrates that it can work. American drivers are much more polite than European ones yet kill more cyclists per capita.

Symbiote 6y ago
> American drivers are much more polite than European ones I don't know about American drivers, but you certainly shouldn't say e.g. Swedish and French drivers are equally impolite.
- gumby 6y ago
  I’ve been equally terrified crossing the street on a Saturday night in Södermalm as in the 6e Arrondissement.

taeric 6y ago

I suspect there is a fair bit of confirmation bias in what you are noticing. I say this as a biker that also notices these things. I also notice them from drivers all the time, as well. Is it stupid when a cyclist runs a stop sign? Yes. The same as a car doing it. And people are notorious for not stopping well if they are going to take a right. Such that we design for the behavior with round abouts. Car or bike. Meanwhile, both times I've been hit, the car turned right not checking that there was a biker in the bike lane right next to them.

fastball 6y ago
I'm not sure the confirmation bias matters here. The GC seems to be a comment replying to a lot of sentiment in this thread which is basically "the driver is always at fault". Given what I'm sure we've all seen from cyclists (and the things I've done as a cyclist), I can confirm that this is definitely not the case.
- taeric 6y ago
  Your rhetorical style isn't helping. From what we have all seen from drivers, nobody should be allowed to drive a car. :)
  - fastball 6y ago
    What's wrong with my rhetorical style?
    - taeric 6y ago
      I meant just the clause I parrotted. It begs the question regarding what we've all seen/done.

1over137 6y ago

>If running a red light or stop sign is a $200 ticket in a car, it should be a $200 ticket on a bike. Why? They are different crimes. Cars are faster and heavier, thus will injure someone much more when misused.

bigbubba 6y ago
By that logic, should the fines car drivers face scale with the weight of their vehicle? Is blowing through a redlight in a small sports car a lesser crime than doing the same with a large pickup truck? I'm receptive to this, but I doubt it would ever be implemented.
- jimmytidey 6y ago
  Yes. Or you could use a system of weight categories, for example one category for cars and one for bikes.
- taeric 6y ago
  The fines probably do scale up as the class of the vehicle scales up. In large because you can lose your job if you are a bus or truck driver and do this.
  - dmurray 6y ago
    Or, you pay more for insurance for a more powerful car, and the main impact of the ticket is not the monetary fine but an increase in premiums.
- noobermin 6y ago
  I think SUVs should br taxed actually, as well as trucks that have no commercial purpose, althouh that is a separate issue.
varjag 6y ago
A cyclist absolutely can get badly injured when running red, arguably more likely than a car driver.

fastball 6y ago

Not sure why you're getting downvotes, you make a great point. Bicyclists (I am one) apparently want to have their cake and eat it too: driving all over the place (sidewalk, street, wrong way, etc) while at the same time wanting drivers to always be at fault for collisions.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
matsemann 6y ago
No, it's a stupid point, repeatedly being made. Why should cyclists be judged as a group by their worst members, but drivers as individuals? As a driver, I think all roads should be closed for anyone else but cyclists. I'm a driver, you can't argue with my point, as I represent all drivers. "As an X person" is really good for discourse..

rossjudson 6y ago

I say this as someone who commutes by bike whenever possible -- there are some real assholes riding on the paths. It turns out that riding a bike does not change who you are, fundamentally. If those cyclists owned diesel pickups, they'd be coal-rolling with the best of them. I used to cross a bridge to get to work. There was a shared pedestrian/cycle pathway, about 6 feet wide, with cycles yielding to pedestrians. I remember walking across that one time with my family, including my daughter who was about 3. This one jerk rang no bell and blew past my entire family, about a foot away, at 20+ MPH. I didn't even hear him coming from behind. 3 year olds are prone to random movements. If she had moved by a foot or two at exactly the wrong time, it would have been a very bad situation. On the plus side, the cyclist behind the asshole (who properly rang his bell and passed us) stopped at the end of the bridge to apologize for the first guy.

uxp100 6y ago

Running a stop sign is a not a ticket. Nothing is a ticket. I regularly see drivers going 20 MPH the speed limit in the bike lane passing or even into on coming traffic forcing people off the road, all without plates. I don’t think I’ve seen a car pulled over on city streets in my life. It’s just normal for cars to run red lights and stop signs, to veer drunkenly all over the road, and to go 50 in a 30, and to shout slurs and spit on pedestrians.

dmurray 6y ago

> If running a red light or stop sign is a $200 ticket in a car, it should be a $200 ticket on a bike. Hard to justify when safety is the main argument. Yeah, $200 fine for cyclists would be a good deterrent, but maybe then it should be a $1000 or $2000 fine for a car doing the same thing [0]. If you want to argue that cyclists should face the same penalties as drivers, you have to make an argument prioritizing safety, but something like "respect for the law". [0] Or - $200 plus points on your license. That's the way it works in many jurisdictions: the motorist rightly faces a bigger penalty even though the top-line dollar amount is the same.

vehemenz 6y ago

1. Your lack of sympathy comes from false generalizations about cyclist behavior. You tend to remember the egregious behavior and likely give a pass to drivers doing more dangerous (although common) stuff. 2. Drivers commit as many, if not more traffic violations than cyclists—and the consequences are much greater. 3. Your opinion would almost certainly change if you had to commute by bicycle.