5 ms·
You can use "else" that way in ordinary speech. "If this then do that else do the other thing" is perfectly legitimate English, just a bit archaic.
by Hizonner 6y ago
You can use "else" that way in ordinary speech. "If this then do that else do the other thing" is perfectly legitimate English, just a bit archaic.
- shawnz 6y agoWiktionary has a usage example from 1903, clearly before modern computers but not too ancient. > 1903, Jack London, The Call of the Wild, Grosset & Dunlap, page 44: > […] and his first experience taught him an unforgetable lesson. It is true, it was a vicarious experience, else he would not have lived to profit by it. As an aside there is at least one common word which does seem to have been invented by the software industry: "access" as a verb
- pavlov 6y ago> “... one common word which does seem to have been invented by the software industry: "access" as a verb” Really? That’s surprising because the French and Spanish equivalent verb (accéder / acceder) is common and has multiple meanings such as “reaching a peak”. I would have imagined this word transferred over in the Norman days.
- chrismorgan 6y agohttps://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=access_VERB https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=access_VERB would seem to support the claim.
- pavlov 6y agoWow, interesting. Maybe it’s because “to accede” is also an English verb but acquired a different meaning from the Latin root. Acceding to a computer system doesn’t make sense like it does in French or Spanish, so the noun was turned back into a different verb.
- jiofih 6y agoI believe that sentence should read “or else he would have...” to be grammatically correct.
- kibwen 6y ago> "access" as a verb The comic Calvin & Hobbes corroborates the novelty of this verb in this strip from 1993: https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1993/01/25 https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1993/01/25
- enriquto 6y ago> "access" as a verb But is it pronounced the same way? I stress the first or the second vowel depending on the case.
- losvedir 6y agoThat's interesting, what accent do you have? In American English I've only ever heard them pronounced the same in noun or verb form.
- enriquto 6y agoFor me english is mostly a written language, as I speak it very rarely. I think that I speak with a mix of french and spanish accents, incorrectly stressing the last syllables of many words, and pronouncing different vowels using the same sound.
- x3n0ph3n3 6y agoCheck out the wikipedia page on initial-stress derived nouns. [1] It's quite illuminating! 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initial-stress-derived_noun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initial-stress-derived_noun
- chrismorgan 6y agoAnd “or else” has long been perfectly normal (“if a then do b, or else do c”). See also “elsewise”, equivalent to “otherwise”; use in this construct “if a, b; elsewise, c” is a good deal rarer. I would commonly speak sentences like “I was not hungry; else would I have eaten it” among family and friends, but not typically among the general public. It definitely feels a tad archaic, or at least highfalutin.
- JoBrad 6y agoPerhaps the or was dropped for ease of typing, and also readability/parsing?
- Blikkentrekker 6y agoIt does not even register as “archaic” to me. Methinks it's rather ordinary.
- codeulike 6y agoIndeed it would behoof us not to assay to declare words archaic ere their time
- maire 6y agoIn colloquial english we usually put an "or" in front of else. It really breaks down when you put it in boolean form because the "or" implies other actions when true rather than actions if false. Removing the "or" completely is unambiguous but is antiquated English. Examples: "Go to college or else work for your uncle" Turn this into boolean form: "If you go to college then <foo> or else you will work for your uncle" But the "or" makes the meaning ambiguous: "If it rains then I will work inside or else I will work outside." It is not clear if this means you will work outside if and only if it is not raining? Maybe working outside is another option if it rains. Otherwise is far more clear. "If it rains then I will work inside otherwise I will work outside." Removing the "or" completely makes the statements unambiguous archaic English: "If you go to college then <foo> else you will work for your uncle" "If it rains then I will work inside else I will work outside." FWIW - I am very glad they chose else over otherwise...
- asciimov 6y ago> But the "or" makes the meaning ambiguous I disagree that or is ambiguous. In English we use or to mean xor, that is one item or the other item but not both. If we want to clarify that choosing both items is an option we use the term and/or.
- thih9 6y ago> I disagree that or is ambiguous There are examples of inclusive “or” in natural language. When the waiter asks: “Would you like cream or sugar?”, it’s not meant to imply that you should pick only one; it’s fine to answer “both” (example from: https://divisbyzero.com/2009/09/27/is-or-an-inclusive-or-or-an-exclusive-or/ https://divisbyzero.com/2009/09/27/is-or-an-inclusive-or-or-... ).
- chrismorgan 6y agoAnd if you put a comma in, then it reverts it to exclusive or: “Would you like cream, or sugar?” This may depend on locale, however; I’m speaking of Australian English, and it’s possible that in some locales there may be a verbal cue to indicate the exclusive or but that it wouldn’t be spelled in any way. (As it stands, you could still have a pause before the “or” permitting inclusive or with two inqusitive portions: “Would you like cream? Or sugar?”) This is a large part of why I dislike prescribed Oxford comma, because it undermines this legitimate use of a comma to alter the semantics.
- macintux 6y agoI'm inclined to suspect that someone who lived during this era had a pretty good sense of how ordinary "else" was at the time. I would not be surprised to learn that "else" is more common now thanks to programming languages. > Christopher Strachey's CPL programming language is the grandparent of C and therefore the ancestor of most current programming languages, and he refused to use "else," calling it "ignorantly incorrect English." Given how hard it seemed everyone who designed languages tried to avoid using the word, it would seem Strachey's view was not uncommon.
- crazygringo 6y ago"A bit"? I've never heard that usage in modern English in my entire life. It's 100% archaic, I'd say. Any teacher or writing professor would mark that as a grammar mistake, end of story. "A bit archaic" would be like writing "threescore years ago" -- not a normal or especially accessible way of writing, but still recognized as valid grammar.
- enf 6y agoI said I can't say it, not that no one can say it. It is not in my dialect.
- dahart 6y agoI really liked your article, and the evolution of this syntax is historically interesting. But, your article did quite clearly claim that this use of 'else' is not English. You claimed 'else' is not a conjuction, and you called it a 'mystery' why it ended up in a computer programming language. I'm fine with, and actually I support the idea of being descriptivist about language rather that prescriptivist. But your comment here does unambiguously contradict what you wrote in the article...