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> the secondary text color fails AAA standards Minor nitpick: The Web Content Accessibility Guidelines are precisely that - guidelines. You should follow them

> the secondary text color fails AAA standards Minor nitpick: The Web Content Accessibility Guidelines are precisely that - guidelines. You should follow them until you have a good reason not to. And contrast ratios arent everything. This article https://www.bounteous.com/insights/2019/03/22/orange-you-accessible-mini-case-study-color-ratio/ https://www.bounteous.com/insights/2019/03/22/orange-you-acc... is a good example of how the "most accessible" colour pairing, by the "mathematical proof", is the least accessible and preferred by users.

karenying7 6y ago
Yes! Definitely agree -- I just wanted an easy way to quantify what I was seeing and contrast ratios are simple enough to understand and discuss
fiddlerwoaroof 6y ago
I’m curious if that article takes into account color calibration? Also, a sample size of 20 is relatively low to make a conclusion. Anyways, I do think this is an important point: the math of contrast ratios is a model that’s intended to reflect what’s going on with people’s vision; if a large-scale study of people indicates that the white/orange button is easier to read, the math is just wrong: we have to be careful not to force reality into our models, otherwise the modes lose their utility.
- madeofpalk 6y ago
  The "math" is fine. I'm sure, while it's not perfect, it's suitable in most circumstances. My point remains though is that WCAG are guidelines, not mandates. The goal always to produce software that is accessable and usable by people, not to satisify a mathematical constraint. WCAG and 'constrast ratios' are a means to that end, but they're not the end goal itself.
  - fiddlerwoaroof 6y ago
    If the math produces the wrong conclusion in some cases, it’s worth trying to figure out if the model can be improved. Anyways, we’re not really disagreeing as far as I can tell.
  - bryanrasmussen 6y ago
    Ok but if a law says that a government agency or industry must follow WCAG, I guess that turns them into mandates.
- dehrmann 6y ago
  > I’m curious if that article takes into account color calibration? It doesn't really matter because most displays aren't color-calibrated.
  - fiddlerwoaroof 6y ago
    Sorry, I’m not sure I’m using the right term: what I’m wondering if the math is adjusted for the color space correctly.
mpetroff 6y ago
The WCAG also define the contrast ratio in terms of sRGB, which is not a perceptually-uniform color space. This makes the WCAG contrast ratios somewhat meaningless in terms of human visual perception. It's accessibility by edict, not science. There's a rather lengthy discussion of this on the WCAG issue tracker [1]. [1] https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/695 https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/695
- nx7487 6y ago
  The issue creator also points out "It is a concern for me because this W3C document is considered authoritative, and has made its way into government regulations." Pretty interesting thread.
- refulgentis 6y ago
  hah, awesome, I know exactly what issue this is without clicking through - Myndex is wrong on this, shockingly, but unfortunately my lips have to be sealed, for now. Look into the correspondence between the space Myndex uses, the space contrast ratio is measured in, and then again at the W3C docs: TL;DR Myndex's approach doesn't account for reflectance off the screen
petepete 6y ago
The cookies popup on that site is a thing of beauty.
ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
I love that article! Thanks for sharing it!
karenying7 6y ago
Also great article! Got the chance to read it and I actually ended up linking it in my post > While contrast ratios aren’t [everything](linked it here), they are a simple way to quantify the difference between two colors.
bladegash 6y ago
Yes, WCAG are guidelines, but they are not just suggestions in a lot of cases. WCAG has been adopted as the standard for a variety of regulatory purposes. For example, with Section 508/504, the US Access Board requires procurements to be compliant with WCAG 2.0 AA. Germany’s BIVT is harmonized with WCAG 2.1 AA, California requires state entities and procurements comply with WCAG 2.0 AA, etc. At least in the US, the main sphere where WCAG has not been specified as the regulatory standard is with Title III places of public accommodation. However, Federal Courts have repeatedly upheld that places of public accommodation must make their websites accessible, they just won’t say how to accomplish that (nor is it their job to). In the case of GitHub, I can tell you with 100% certainty it has been provided to, at least, the Federal government as part of a procurement, is subject to Section 508 statutory requirements, and WCAG 2.0 AA is the required standard. This is to say, it might not be a good idea to arbitrarily decide that color contrast sufficiency is just a suggestion.
- eurasiantiger 6y ago
  You are most correct. The European Union requires its member states to comply with WCAG 2.1 AA on _all_ public websites. Every branch of government, every agency.
skeletonjelly 6y ago
Of course they're guidelines, I'm not sure what alternative there is. WCAG mandates that the browser won't render unless it passes?

karenying7 6y ago

Yes! Definitely agree -- I just wanted an easy way to quantify what I was seeing and contrast ratios are simple enough to understand and discuss

fiddlerwoaroof 6y ago

I’m curious if that article takes into account color calibration? Also, a sample size of 20 is relatively low to make a conclusion. Anyways, I do think this is an important point: the math of contrast ratios is a model that’s intended to reflect what’s going on with people’s vision; if a large-scale study of people indicates that the white/orange button is easier to read, the math is just wrong: we have to be careful not to force reality into our models, otherwise the modes lose their utility.

madeofpalk 6y ago
The "math" is fine. I'm sure, while it's not perfect, it's suitable in most circumstances. My point remains though is that WCAG are guidelines, not mandates. The goal always to produce software that is accessable and usable by people, not to satisify a mathematical constraint. WCAG and 'constrast ratios' are a means to that end, but they're not the end goal itself.
- fiddlerwoaroof 6y ago
  If the math produces the wrong conclusion in some cases, it’s worth trying to figure out if the model can be improved. Anyways, we’re not really disagreeing as far as I can tell.
- bryanrasmussen 6y ago
  Ok but if a law says that a government agency or industry must follow WCAG, I guess that turns them into mandates.
dehrmann 6y ago
> I’m curious if that article takes into account color calibration? It doesn't really matter because most displays aren't color-calibrated.
- fiddlerwoaroof 6y ago
  Sorry, I’m not sure I’m using the right term: what I’m wondering if the math is adjusted for the color space correctly.

mpetroff 6y ago

The WCAG also define the contrast ratio in terms of sRGB, which is not a perceptually-uniform color space. This makes the WCAG contrast ratios somewhat meaningless in terms of human visual perception. It's accessibility by edict, not science. There's a rather lengthy discussion of this on the WCAG issue tracker [1]. [1] https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/695 https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/695

nx7487 6y ago
The issue creator also points out "It is a concern for me because this W3C document is considered authoritative, and has made its way into government regulations." Pretty interesting thread.
refulgentis 6y ago
hah, awesome, I know exactly what issue this is without clicking through - Myndex is wrong on this, shockingly, but unfortunately my lips have to be sealed, for now. Look into the correspondence between the space Myndex uses, the space contrast ratio is measured in, and then again at the W3C docs: TL;DR Myndex's approach doesn't account for reflectance off the screen

petepete 6y ago

The cookies popup on that site is a thing of beauty.

ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago

I love that article! Thanks for sharing it!

karenying7 6y ago

Also great article! Got the chance to read it and I actually ended up linking it in my post > While contrast ratios aren’t [everything](linked it here), they are a simple way to quantify the difference between two colors.

bladegash 6y ago

Yes, WCAG are guidelines, but they are not just suggestions in a lot of cases. WCAG has been adopted as the standard for a variety of regulatory purposes. For example, with Section 508/504, the US Access Board requires procurements to be compliant with WCAG 2.0 AA. Germany’s BIVT is harmonized with WCAG 2.1 AA, California requires state entities and procurements comply with WCAG 2.0 AA, etc. At least in the US, the main sphere where WCAG has not been specified as the regulatory standard is with Title III places of public accommodation. However, Federal Courts have repeatedly upheld that places of public accommodation must make their websites accessible, they just won’t say how to accomplish that (nor is it their job to). In the case of GitHub, I can tell you with 100% certainty it has been provided to, at least, the Federal government as part of a procurement, is subject to Section 508 statutory requirements, and WCAG 2.0 AA is the required standard. This is to say, it might not be a good idea to arbitrarily decide that color contrast sufficiency is just a suggestion.

eurasiantiger 6y ago
You are most correct. The European Union requires its member states to comply with WCAG 2.1 AA on _all_ public websites. Every branch of government, every agency.

skeletonjelly 6y ago

Of course they're guidelines, I'm not sure what alternative there is. WCAG mandates that the browser won't render unless it passes?