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SPOILERS!!! Its interesting that in 1882 the authors refusal to give an ending would have been seen as challenging and innovative but to me in 2020 it seems l

SPOILERS!!! Its interesting that in 1882 the authors refusal to give an ending would have been seen as challenging and innovative but to me in 2020 it seems like a cop-out. I don't need the undercurrents made clear to me - I can already see all that. I want an ending to the story. The more interesting angle is that the guy should realise that the princess might direct him to the wrong door. His thought process about it is much more interesting to me than my own as the reader. A 2020 version needs some extra twist at the end. The King, perhaps, knows his daughter all too well, and has put a wedding behind both doors. Or the Princess has loftier aims, and has secretly trained the tiger to attack the King, and usher in a new era of civility, but to do that (somehow or other ) she has to allow her love to marry someone else etc etc Still, I love that things people wrote in 1882 are now being zinged accross the world by a huge world-spanning machine made of billions of devices that people in 1882 would barely have been able to imagine. edit: drewzero1, elsewhere in this thread, reminds me of the They Might Be Giants song that looks at the situation from a much more 21st century perspective: http://tmbw.net/wiki/Lyrics:The_Lady_And_The_Tiger http://tmbw.net/wiki/Lyrics:The_Lady_And_The_Tiger https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nQemVw2Lb0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nQemVw2Lb0

imron 6y ago
> Its interesting that in 1882 the authors refusal to give an ending would have been seen as challenging and innovative but to me in 2020 it seems like a cop-out. In the early 90's, my English teacher read this story to the class and it blew my teenage mind. It's been one of my favorite short stories ever since.
- codeulike 6y ago
  Yes maybe as a teenager I would have experienced it differently.
- r00fus 6y ago
  Was there a discussion afterward?
  - imron 6y ago
    There likely was but I can’t remember any specifics.
codeulike 6y ago
Also the idea that (in the Kings mind) guilt or innocence (and in turn happiness or death) could be determined by something random, like some sort of quantum witch trial, is kind of interesting, like you might be able to eke out some sort of obversation about the human condition from that. But the story doesn't seem interested in exploring that.
- the_af 6y ago
  Wasn't there an actual practice in some cultures? For example, in trial by combat where the person who won was considered morally right? Or some forms of witch trials I suppose ("will she float or sink") but I'm never sure how much of that is true and how much is fiction, as in Monty Python's ;)
the_af 6y ago
I'm sure you already know this, but this story is like a Zen koan: it's purpose is not to provide a conclusion, but for you to ponder something. In this case, human nature. Had the story provided a conclusion, in 2020 or any other year, it would be entirely unremarkable.
- codeulike 6y ago
  And I'm saying a story can still explore issues and have you ponder about them without the author having to step in and explicitly tell you to do so. The story could, for example, have explored the issue of which way the princess might lean from the guys point of view, which covers all the same human nature angles, and then it could also have gone on to have a proper ending. I value storycraft. I'm not saying the story should have been different back then, I'm sure it was perfect for 1882, and thats why its remembered now. I'm interested in how I differ from the 1882 audience. edit: and koans are more about invoking mind states beyond words, like a kind of mind-hack, than they are about pondering ponderable things.
  - the_af 6y ago
    I'm not particularly fond of this story -- I think its preamble is too long and meandering -- but why do you think this has something to do with 1882 vs 2020 audiences? And why do you think it's bad storycraft to leave the conclusion open-ended? This kind of device is used to great success in modern fiction, such as Stephen King's (non-supernatural!) short story "All that you love will be taken away", where the conclusion is not only open-ended, but also left to chance!
    - codeulike 6y ago
      Well I'm hoping someone more familiar with cultural history might be able to tell me. 138 years ago is a hell of a long time. E.g. maybe murderous jealousy was a more risque concept then? And hence asking your audience to consider it was more provocative?
  - jancsika 6y ago
    > I value storycraft. The form of this story has used widely since, and those stories have been incredibly popular with both authors and audiences for well over 100 years now. Implying that a tried-and-true technique of story-telling lies outside of storycraft betrays basic a lack of understanding of the subject. Story tellers enjoy this form for the challenge of balancing what the omniscient narrator reveals-- too much or too strong in one direction and the whole thing falls flat. Readers enjoy the form because it feels a bit like ski jumping-- the writer provides the momentum and the reader's imagination leaps off the end with all the story's implications flying past. In fact, Nabokov balanced this same form masterfully in the short story, "Signs and Symbols." The effect there is that the reader leaps off into a level of... well, I don't want to ruin it. :) But it's enough to say that outside of VR I don't think that story could have been effectively written without using the lady-or-the-tiger form.
1123581321 6y ago
Your proposals sound rather dull. :) We in 2020 still appreciate prompts for thought and discussion. The popular media by which we transmit them has changed, though.
boogies 6y ago
> A 2020 version needs some extra twist at the end I was hoping the guy would turn around and knock on the door under the king, and the priest would come out and marry him to the Princess. Alternatively, if “it mattered not that [criminals] might already possess a wife and family”, why couldn’t the guy marry the princess after marrying the damsel of the court?
lkrubner 6y ago
We had to read this story and write an essay about it back when I was 15 years old, and I think the story was written for that market, as an essay starter for young people.
codeulike 6y ago
Apparently there is a sequel called 'The Discourager of Hesitancy' about five travellers trying to find out what happened in the original story (and failing). I'm kindof intriuged by that.
crpatino 6y ago
The point of the work is not to provide closure, but to foster discussion. The fact that we do not know if the princess is telling the truth or not puts us in the very same position as her lover (minus the fatal peril of course). So, if you were the lover, would you open the right door as your princess demanded, or would you open the left door? My own answer is that it is best to open the left door. If your princess is true you will show that it is better to face death today rather than go a lifetime without her affections. On the other hand, if she happens to be a vain jealous creature, what best act of defiance to foil her murderous intent that to live long and prosper with somebody else.

imron 6y ago

> Its interesting that in 1882 the authors refusal to give an ending would have been seen as challenging and innovative but to me in 2020 it seems like a cop-out. In the early 90's, my English teacher read this story to the class and it blew my teenage mind. It's been one of my favorite short stories ever since.

codeulike 6y ago
Yes maybe as a teenager I would have experienced it differently.
r00fus 6y ago
Was there a discussion afterward?
- imron 6y ago
  There likely was but I can’t remember any specifics.

codeulike 6y ago

Also the idea that (in the Kings mind) guilt or innocence (and in turn happiness or death) could be determined by something random, like some sort of quantum witch trial, is kind of interesting, like you might be able to eke out some sort of obversation about the human condition from that. But the story doesn't seem interested in exploring that.

the_af 6y ago
Wasn't there an actual practice in some cultures? For example, in trial by combat where the person who won was considered morally right? Or some forms of witch trials I suppose ("will she float or sink") but I'm never sure how much of that is true and how much is fiction, as in Monty Python's ;)

the_af 6y ago

I'm sure you already know this, but this story is like a Zen koan: it's purpose is not to provide a conclusion, but for you to ponder something. In this case, human nature. Had the story provided a conclusion, in 2020 or any other year, it would be entirely unremarkable.

codeulike 6y ago
And I'm saying a story can still explore issues and have you ponder about them without the author having to step in and explicitly tell you to do so. The story could, for example, have explored the issue of which way the princess might lean from the guys point of view, which covers all the same human nature angles, and then it could also have gone on to have a proper ending. I value storycraft. I'm not saying the story should have been different back then, I'm sure it was perfect for 1882, and thats why its remembered now. I'm interested in how I differ from the 1882 audience. edit: and koans are more about invoking mind states beyond words, like a kind of mind-hack, than they are about pondering ponderable things.
- the_af 6y ago
  I'm not particularly fond of this story -- I think its preamble is too long and meandering -- but why do you think this has something to do with 1882 vs 2020 audiences? And why do you think it's bad storycraft to leave the conclusion open-ended? This kind of device is used to great success in modern fiction, such as Stephen King's (non-supernatural!) short story "All that you love will be taken away", where the conclusion is not only open-ended, but also left to chance!
  - codeulike 6y ago
    Well I'm hoping someone more familiar with cultural history might be able to tell me. 138 years ago is a hell of a long time. E.g. maybe murderous jealousy was a more risque concept then? And hence asking your audience to consider it was more provocative?
- jancsika 6y ago
  > I value storycraft. The form of this story has used widely since, and those stories have been incredibly popular with both authors and audiences for well over 100 years now. Implying that a tried-and-true technique of story-telling lies outside of storycraft betrays basic a lack of understanding of the subject. Story tellers enjoy this form for the challenge of balancing what the omniscient narrator reveals-- too much or too strong in one direction and the whole thing falls flat. Readers enjoy the form because it feels a bit like ski jumping-- the writer provides the momentum and the reader's imagination leaps off the end with all the story's implications flying past. In fact, Nabokov balanced this same form masterfully in the short story, "Signs and Symbols." The effect there is that the reader leaps off into a level of... well, I don't want to ruin it. :) But it's enough to say that outside of VR I don't think that story could have been effectively written without using the lady-or-the-tiger form.

1123581321 6y ago

Your proposals sound rather dull. :) We in 2020 still appreciate prompts for thought and discussion. The popular media by which we transmit them has changed, though.

boogies 6y ago

> A 2020 version needs some extra twist at the end I was hoping the guy would turn around and knock on the door under the king, and the priest would come out and marry him to the Princess. Alternatively, if “it mattered not that [criminals] might already possess a wife and family”, why couldn’t the guy marry the princess after marrying the damsel of the court?

lkrubner 6y ago

We had to read this story and write an essay about it back when I was 15 years old, and I think the story was written for that market, as an essay starter for young people.

codeulike 6y ago

Apparently there is a sequel called 'The Discourager of Hesitancy' about five travellers trying to find out what happened in the original story (and failing). I'm kindof intriuged by that.

crpatino 6y ago

The point of the work is not to provide closure, but to foster discussion. The fact that we do not know if the princess is telling the truth or not puts us in the very same position as her lover (minus the fatal peril of course). So, if you were the lover, would you open the right door as your princess demanded, or would you open the left door? My own answer is that it is best to open the left door. If your princess is true you will show that it is better to face death today rather than go a lifetime without her affections. On the other hand, if she happens to be a vain jealous creature, what best act of defiance to foil her murderous intent that to live long and prosper with somebody else.