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I am sick that "hate speech" is an alleged problem because some people read something on the net they didn't like. I also don't like the people that write it. B

I am sick that "hate speech" is an alleged problem because some people read something on the net they didn't like. I also don't like the people that write it. But the reaction to it is just infantile and the exchange of ideas is degraded. The nature of the medium has intrinsic properties and that means that if you broadcast opinions, you always get pushback. It doesn't mean there is or is no justification for it. It is the trivial result of connecting everyone on the planet. Be it differences or misunderstandings, there simply is no authority that would be accepted to enact a rule that you have to adhere to certain official statements about health, elections or Santa Clause. As bas as some terrorist deeds may be, the continuation of decreasing liberty for security we tried for some decades is counterproductive and devoid of any results. Change it or lets yourself be classified as insane already. Not a fan of facebook, but if you don't like it, you can just not use it. Doesn't mean you have the right to dictate how others use media. And don't think you are different to other historic mistakes of curbing speech.

cptaj 6y ago
The problem isn't an awkward exchange of ideas. The problem is industrial-scale disinformation campaigns manipulating public opinion and discrediting every single thing you can imagine, grinding the free exchange of ideas to a halt at every turn. Its a DDOS attack on that very same free exchange of ideas you mention.
- bondarchuk 6y ago
  >industrial-scale disinformation campaigns manipulating public opinion and discrediting every single thing you can imagine This is just a fancy way of saying "people saying things I don't like". >grinding the free exchange of ideas to a halt at every turn. How so? Like GP said, you can just not use facebook and freely exchange ideas with your peers through other channels. Sure, some of your peers might have a different opinion than you, and (gasp!) you might even be unable to change their mind, but that's just how it is.
  - TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
    You seem amusingly unaware of how various organisations of questionable intent have farmed microtargeting to influence elections and referendums. If this was "people saying things I don't like" it would be absolutely fine. People say things I don't like on HN all the time, and I either ignore them or debate with them - which is how it should be. But that's not what this is about. This is about political PR machines with unusual wealth lying to Facebook users on an industrial scale to control what they believe and how they act. But perhaps you think lying to people on an industrial scale is ok?
    - bondarchuk 6y ago
      >But perhaps you think lying to people on an industrial scale is ok? Nobody seemed to have this much of a problem with propaganda back when the common man did not have access to it.
      - josephg 6y ago
        The common man? Some of the problem is youtube promoting a 'common man' Alex Jones 15bn times because he drives youtube's advertising revenue. And some of the problem is russia running active disinformation campaigns and organising competing protesters to fight in the streets. If this happened in the 70's, you bet people would have had a problem with it.
        jpttsn 6y ago
        You bet this happened in the 70's.
      - gjulianm 6y ago
        Propaganda is bad, but I very much prefer easily identifiable propaganda that the absolute circus show we have now, mainly because the former is easier to counter.
    - tyu2 6y ago
      > This is about political PR machines with unusual wealth lying to Facebook users on an industrial scale to control what they believe and how they act. It doesn't control how people act, but for the rest this is exactly what mass media was always doing, influencing beliefs and opinions of the masses, never able to criticize powerful and wealthy where it truly mattered. Facebook only made this space a bit more diverse, actually letting some criticism in, weakening mass media influence. But it's ridiculous to think this affected "democracy", the US isn't even considered to be a democracy outside of the US, but more like a capitalist-ruled police country.
- mikewarot 6y ago
  Facebook does not allow free exchange of ideas, you have to pay to make sure your followers actually see everything you post, unlike the open web.
- AzzieElbab 6y ago
  How is that different from the newspapers and cable news?
  - humanrebar 6y ago
    They are not public forums. You me and three other self-appointed bicycle fanatics are not having a lively discussion about cycling shoes in the New York Times, subject to oversight from the New York Times.
    - AzzieElbab 6y ago
      I see your point, but the post i replied to blamed social networks for ‘ddos of misinformation’. I am seeing the same in mainstream media. The only difference is - they think they can hold on to the mic forever.
harimau777 6y ago
I think that the issue is misinformation and propaganda not hate speech. Perhaps a start would be forbidding PACs, lobbyists, and politicians from posting things that are factually untrue. That wouldn't fix everything since the majority of misinformation is twisting facts rather than outright falsehoods, but it could at least help.
lanevorockz 6y ago
Let's be honest for a second, we saw enough leaks that upfront prove that Silicon Valley is not a political tool for radical left wing ideology. Not only the whole industry is breaking up but the state itself is going through a severe crisis. At some point we will have to face the truth. Companies should not be allowed to use platform protections to becoming lobbying companies. That's how they are able to erase people like Bernie, Tulsi, Wang ... they keep pushing crony politicians that can be easily bought up.
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  No, it certainly is not a tool for left wing ideology in any form, radical or not. The other way around I would say. They employ psychologists to tell them how to appease and use activists to foster their image. I believe most engineers have a left wing political position for that matter, although I dislike these classifications and that doesn't mean it is still true for publicly traded companies. And of course big tech would try to reduce anonymity, get people to sign up for their ident services, want to impose closed systems for security and "left wing" people eat that up like candy. Politicians too, although maybe for different reasons again.
ingenieros 6y ago
I wonder if you'd be as nonchalant with those same "terrorist deeds" if you or one of your loved ones was caught in the crossfire. We've already seen how some targeted posts by the military can spark genocide in places such as Myanmar. We've also witnessed how prolonged exposure to hate speech can drive a teenager to cross state lines and shoot two people in Kenosha, WI. At which point do we put our libertarian fantasies aside and say enough is enough?

cptaj 6y ago

The problem isn't an awkward exchange of ideas. The problem is industrial-scale disinformation campaigns manipulating public opinion and discrediting every single thing you can imagine, grinding the free exchange of ideas to a halt at every turn. Its a DDOS attack on that very same free exchange of ideas you mention.

bondarchuk 6y ago
>industrial-scale disinformation campaigns manipulating public opinion and discrediting every single thing you can imagine This is just a fancy way of saying "people saying things I don't like". >grinding the free exchange of ideas to a halt at every turn. How so? Like GP said, you can just not use facebook and freely exchange ideas with your peers through other channels. Sure, some of your peers might have a different opinion than you, and (gasp!) you might even be unable to change their mind, but that's just how it is.
- TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
  You seem amusingly unaware of how various organisations of questionable intent have farmed microtargeting to influence elections and referendums. If this was "people saying things I don't like" it would be absolutely fine. People say things I don't like on HN all the time, and I either ignore them or debate with them - which is how it should be. But that's not what this is about. This is about political PR machines with unusual wealth lying to Facebook users on an industrial scale to control what they believe and how they act. But perhaps you think lying to people on an industrial scale is ok?
  - bondarchuk 6y ago
    >But perhaps you think lying to people on an industrial scale is ok? Nobody seemed to have this much of a problem with propaganda back when the common man did not have access to it.
    - josephg 6y ago
      The common man? Some of the problem is youtube promoting a 'common man' Alex Jones 15bn times because he drives youtube's advertising revenue. And some of the problem is russia running active disinformation campaigns and organising competing protesters to fight in the streets. If this happened in the 70's, you bet people would have had a problem with it.
      - jpttsn 6y ago
        You bet this happened in the 70's.
    - gjulianm 6y ago
      Propaganda is bad, but I very much prefer easily identifiable propaganda that the absolute circus show we have now, mainly because the former is easier to counter.
  - tyu2 6y ago
    > This is about political PR machines with unusual wealth lying to Facebook users on an industrial scale to control what they believe and how they act. It doesn't control how people act, but for the rest this is exactly what mass media was always doing, influencing beliefs and opinions of the masses, never able to criticize powerful and wealthy where it truly mattered. Facebook only made this space a bit more diverse, actually letting some criticism in, weakening mass media influence. But it's ridiculous to think this affected "democracy", the US isn't even considered to be a democracy outside of the US, but more like a capitalist-ruled police country.
mikewarot 6y ago
Facebook does not allow free exchange of ideas, you have to pay to make sure your followers actually see everything you post, unlike the open web.
AzzieElbab 6y ago
How is that different from the newspapers and cable news?
- humanrebar 6y ago
  They are not public forums. You me and three other self-appointed bicycle fanatics are not having a lively discussion about cycling shoes in the New York Times, subject to oversight from the New York Times.
  - AzzieElbab 6y ago
    I see your point, but the post i replied to blamed social networks for ‘ddos of misinformation’. I am seeing the same in mainstream media. The only difference is - they think they can hold on to the mic forever.

harimau777 6y ago

I think that the issue is misinformation and propaganda not hate speech. Perhaps a start would be forbidding PACs, lobbyists, and politicians from posting things that are factually untrue. That wouldn't fix everything since the majority of misinformation is twisting facts rather than outright falsehoods, but it could at least help.

lanevorockz 6y ago

Let's be honest for a second, we saw enough leaks that upfront prove that Silicon Valley is not a political tool for radical left wing ideology. Not only the whole industry is breaking up but the state itself is going through a severe crisis. At some point we will have to face the truth. Companies should not be allowed to use platform protections to becoming lobbying companies. That's how they are able to erase people like Bernie, Tulsi, Wang ... they keep pushing crony politicians that can be easily bought up.

raxxorrax 6y ago
No, it certainly is not a tool for left wing ideology in any form, radical or not. The other way around I would say. They employ psychologists to tell them how to appease and use activists to foster their image. I believe most engineers have a left wing political position for that matter, although I dislike these classifications and that doesn't mean it is still true for publicly traded companies. And of course big tech would try to reduce anonymity, get people to sign up for their ident services, want to impose closed systems for security and "left wing" people eat that up like candy. Politicians too, although maybe for different reasons again.

ingenieros 6y ago

I wonder if you'd be as nonchalant with those same "terrorist deeds" if you or one of your loved ones was caught in the crossfire. We've already seen how some targeted posts by the military can spark genocide in places such as Myanmar. We've also witnessed how prolonged exposure to hate speech can drive a teenager to cross state lines and shoot two people in Kenosha, WI. At which point do we put our libertarian fantasies aside and say enough is enough?