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The case for freedom of religion has never looked more questionable than it does right now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism_in_Europe https://en

The case for freedom of religion has never looked more questionable than it does right now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism_in_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism_in_Europe Trying to wave away this debate by just shouting “RACIST! NAZI!” contributes nothing meaningful to a debate that is sorely missing from society. Edit: why is this controversial and the post I'm replying to not? We both advocate the exact same thing: to abolish a founding principle of western civilization because sometimes people die. Hell, there's even a quite large disparity between the number of deaths caused by those two principles - my argument has way more merit. I'd really love to see why these two cases are totally different and incomparable. Three paragraphs of mental gymnastics or less though, please!

lldbg 6y ago
Religion is already banned in places such as France. Did not do them much good. A ban on free speech will be equally as effective.
- redis_mlc 6y ago
  > Religion is already banned in places such as France. No. France is ultra-secular, and does not ask religion when doing their census. However, most Western countries want Saudi Arabia to stop sending radical imams, including France and the USA.
  - redis_mlc 6y ago
    What I wrote is literally 100% true, as reported in the press. The original poster who wrote that "religion is banned" is 100% wrong. So what are the downvotes for? Some kind of brigade?
- Renaud 6y ago
  What do you mean Religion is banned in France? I'm curious about what sort of twisted broad exaggeration and misunderstanding do you have to believe to drop something like that?
  - chimpansteve 6y ago
    To be fair, the NYT's reporting of Macron's limited and perfectly reasonable attempts to combat rampant fundamentalism might give an uninformed reader a reason to believe he was some authoritarian nutjob. But that's yet another symptom of the NYT's habit of lashing out at any perspective other than their very limited one.
    - Renaud 6y ago
      Yeah, it's strange that Americans on the whole are not well versed in what secualrism means. They think it's some sort state-enforced communist atheism or some anti-religious-freedom agenda, without understanding the pains the country went through in the past 300 years (sometimes to the brink of civil war) to remove religion from the State and ensure religious freedom and equality for all. For most, religion is a personal matter. It starts becoming an issue when it is used as a political ideology that aims to destabilise the State. It happened before with Catholicism and there are now some fringe Islamist movements that want the same.
  - lldbg 6y ago
    Perhaps it was a poor choice of words considering HackerNews nitpicking, but in france display of religious symbols (such as wearing a cross) is banned in public places (mostly). I wrote it that way for effect, thinking that people would be familiar with the french laws. I have no "twisted broad exaggeration and misunderstanding" of belief. I don't think this chain of comments has a good tone, and won't reply further.
    - arethuza 6y ago
      There seems to be a ban on "conspicuous religious symbols in schools" - that's hardly most public places? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_on_secularity_and_conspicuous_religious_symbols_in_schools https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_on_secularity_and_c...
    - duozerk 6y ago
      > but in france display of religious symbols (such as wearing a cross) is banned in public places That is not true; you're free to have religious symbols in public places. What you cannot do is wear them ostensibly if you're acting as an official for a public service. Teacher ? no cross/kippa/etc. while you're teaching. Cop ? same. Mayor in the process of marrying a couple ? same again. Parent helping teachers during a school outing ? you're perfectly allowed to have such signs visible, you're not an official representative of the French republic. Same goes in public places in general.
- Majestic121 6y ago
  Religion is not banned in France, that's a great misunderstanding of the concept of laicity. Laicity means that religion is kept away from the State, it has no impact whatsoever on private practice and definitely nothing to do with it being 'banned'
  - notriskfree 6y ago
    Indeed the less the state has to do with religion; the more religious freedom everyone has.
- chimpansteve 6y ago
  What a bizarre statement. Religion is not banned in France.

lldbg 6y ago

Religion is already banned in places such as France. Did not do them much good. A ban on free speech will be equally as effective.

redis_mlc 6y ago
> Religion is already banned in places such as France. No. France is ultra-secular, and does not ask religion when doing their census. However, most Western countries want Saudi Arabia to stop sending radical imams, including France and the USA.
- redis_mlc 6y ago
  What I wrote is literally 100% true, as reported in the press. The original poster who wrote that "religion is banned" is 100% wrong. So what are the downvotes for? Some kind of brigade?
Renaud 6y ago
What do you mean Religion is banned in France? I'm curious about what sort of twisted broad exaggeration and misunderstanding do you have to believe to drop something like that?
- chimpansteve 6y ago
  To be fair, the NYT's reporting of Macron's limited and perfectly reasonable attempts to combat rampant fundamentalism might give an uninformed reader a reason to believe he was some authoritarian nutjob. But that's yet another symptom of the NYT's habit of lashing out at any perspective other than their very limited one.
  - Renaud 6y ago
    Yeah, it's strange that Americans on the whole are not well versed in what secualrism means. They think it's some sort state-enforced communist atheism or some anti-religious-freedom agenda, without understanding the pains the country went through in the past 300 years (sometimes to the brink of civil war) to remove religion from the State and ensure religious freedom and equality for all. For most, religion is a personal matter. It starts becoming an issue when it is used as a political ideology that aims to destabilise the State. It happened before with Catholicism and there are now some fringe Islamist movements that want the same.
- lldbg 6y ago
  Perhaps it was a poor choice of words considering HackerNews nitpicking, but in france display of religious symbols (such as wearing a cross) is banned in public places (mostly). I wrote it that way for effect, thinking that people would be familiar with the french laws. I have no "twisted broad exaggeration and misunderstanding" of belief. I don't think this chain of comments has a good tone, and won't reply further.
  - arethuza 6y ago
    There seems to be a ban on "conspicuous religious symbols in schools" - that's hardly most public places? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_on_secularity_and_conspicuous_religious_symbols_in_schools https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_on_secularity_and_c...
  - duozerk 6y ago
    > but in france display of religious symbols (such as wearing a cross) is banned in public places That is not true; you're free to have religious symbols in public places. What you cannot do is wear them ostensibly if you're acting as an official for a public service. Teacher ? no cross/kippa/etc. while you're teaching. Cop ? same. Mayor in the process of marrying a couple ? same again. Parent helping teachers during a school outing ? you're perfectly allowed to have such signs visible, you're not an official representative of the French republic. Same goes in public places in general.
Majestic121 6y ago
Religion is not banned in France, that's a great misunderstanding of the concept of laicity. Laicity means that religion is kept away from the State, it has no impact whatsoever on private practice and definitely nothing to do with it being 'banned'
- notriskfree 6y ago
  Indeed the less the state has to do with religion; the more religious freedom everyone has.
chimpansteve 6y ago
What a bizarre statement. Religion is not banned in France.