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> The electric vehicles being developed by Toyota will have a range more than twice the distance of a vehicle running on a conventional lithium-ion battery unde

> The electric vehicles being developed by Toyota will have a range more than twice the distance of a vehicle running on a conventional lithium-ion battery under the same conditions 500km = 310 miles. That's not even remotely twice the range of a Tesla. Heck, it's not even that much more than my Chevrolet Bolt gets. Everything else about this sounds great, especially the charge times. That takes a lot out of the hassles of a long distance trip in an electric car. ~250 miles is a fine point for getting out, taking a restroom break, stretching legs etc. Get back and the car is all topped up? Sounds perfect. The main problem here is that it's still dependent on Lithium, and we've really got to get off that.

maxerickson 6y ago
"twice" is probably a reference to some measure of energy density.
cmroanirgo 6y ago
Just to clarify that the solid-state battery still uses Lithium (but not Lithium-Ion): the article states: > The electric vehicles being developed by Toyota will have a range more than twice the distance of a vehicle running on a conventional lithium-ion battery under the same conditions and > Because solid-state batteries use lithium, an element with limited global reserves, the government will assist in procuring the material. It seems that Lithium will be the next oil crisis, especially if governments will be directly involved in the procurement...and I agree with parent, we must do better than Lithium. Perhaps good 'ol Hydrogen? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP-ZPM0nKkk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP-ZPM0nKkk)
- gonzo41 6y ago
  It really won't Western Australia just needs to get intersted in mining Lithium and there will be enough over the longer term.
- mulmen 6y ago
  I'm not so sure. Hydrogen is a consumable but lithium isn't. I asked in another comment but what's the closed-loop story with lithium batteries?
xbmcuser 6y ago
Why do we need to get off Lithium its an abundant mineral. If its about dirty mining there is not guarantee other minerals will be mined cleanly either.
- cinquemb 6y ago
  Most of it is uneconomical to collect.
  - mulmen 6y ago
    Honest question: what's the recycling story? Oil is a consumable but lithium is not. A battery can be charged and discharged and then recycled. My understanding is that the biggest limitations with lithium battery recycling are the economics. Lead-acid batteries are already highly recyclable. Seems like as lithium gets harder to extract the economic forces will prioritize recyclable batteries.
    - cinquemb 6y ago
      Heres an acs[0] article that talks about it a bit from 2019 under "Challenges in recycling Li-ion batteries": " Just as economic factors can make the case for recycling batteries, they also make the case against it. Large fluctuations in the prices of raw battery materials, for example, cast uncertainty on the economics of recycling. In particular, the recent large drop in cobalt’s price raises questions about whether recycling Li-ion batteries or repurposing them is a good business choice compared with manufacturing new batteries with fresh materials. Basically, if the price of cobalt drops, recycled cobalt would struggle to compete with mined cobalt in terms of price, and manufacturers would choose mined material over recycled, forcing recyclers out of business. Another long-term financial concern for companies considering stepping into battery recycling is whether a different type of battery, such as Li air, or a different vehicle propulsion system, like hydrogen-powered fuel cells, will gain a major foothold on the electric-vehicle market in coming years, lowering the demand for recycling Li-ion batteries. Battery chemistry also complicates recycling. Since the early 1990s when Sony commercialized Li-ion batteries, researchers have repeatedly tailored the cathode’s composition to reduce cost and to enhance charge capacity, longevity, recharge time, and other performance parameters. Some Li-ion batteries use cathodes made of lithium cobalt oxide (LCO). Others use lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide (NMC), lithium nickel cobalt aluminum oxide, lithium iron phosphate, or other materials. And the proportions of the components within one type of cathode—for example, NMC—can vary substantially among manufacturers. The upshot is that Li-ion batteries contain “a wide diversity of ever-evolving materials, which makes recycling challenging,” says Liang An, a battery-recycling specialist at Hong Kong Polytechnic University. Recyclers may need to sort and separate batteries by composition to meet the specifications of people buying the recycled materials, making the process more complicated and raising costs. Battery structure further complicates recycling efforts. Li-ion batteries are compact, complex devices, come in a variety of sizes and shapes, and are not designed to be disassembled. Each cell contains a cathode, anode, separator, and electrolyte. Cathodes generally consist of an electrochemically active powder (LCO, NMC, etc.) mixed with carbon black and glued to an aluminum-foil current collector with a polymeric compound such as poly(vinylidene fluoride) (PVDF). Anodes usually contain graphite, PVDF, and copper foil. Separators, which insulate the electrodes to prevent short circuiting, are thin, porous plastic films, often polyethylene or polypropylene. The electrolyte is typically a solution of LiPF6 dissolved in a mixture of ethylene carbonate and dimethyl carbonate. The components are tightly wound or stacked and packed securely in a plastic or aluminum case. Large battery packs that power electric vehicles may contain several thousand cells grouped in modules. The packs also include sensors, safety devices, and circuitry that controls battery operation, all of which add yet another layer of complexity and additional costs to dismantling and recycling. All these battery components and materials need to be dealt with by a recycler to get at the valuable metals and other materials. In stark contrast, lead-acid car batteries are easily disassembled, and the lead, which accounts for about 60% of a battery’s weight, can be separated quickly from the other components. As a result, nearly 100% of the lead in these batteries is recycled in the US, far surpassing recycling rates for glass, paper, and other materials." [0] https://cen.acs.org/materials/energy-storage/time-serious-recycling-lithium/97/i28?PageSpeed=noscript https://cen.acs.org/materials/energy-storage/time-serious-re...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
cinquemb 6y ago
> The main problem here is that it's still dependent on Lithium, and we've really got to get off that. Yeah, I'm more interested in other salt batteries for thermal storage with high delta_k combined with efficient thermoelectric couples but it seems like big money is behind all things Li electrochemical for the forseable future.
elihu 6y ago
Lithium is pretty cheap and abundant; if it becomes a problem we'll just have to figure out how to extract it in less efficient ways (from sea water, perhaps?). Cobalt is a bigger bottleneck resource. Without details, it's hard to know if this Toyota battery require cobalt (or some other expensive rare-earth mineral). Most lithium-ion chemistries require cobalt, and a lot of the advances and cost improvements in recent years have been around figuring out how to use less. LiFePO4 doesn't use cobalt at all, but has mediocre energy density.
- clouddrover 6y ago
  > if it becomes a problem we'll just have to figure out how to extract it in less efficient ways Or more economically with a lower environmental impact: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20201124-how-geothermal-lithium-could-revolutionise-green-energy https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20201124-how-geothermal-l...
nickik 6y ago
Lithium is not even remotely the problem. There is gigantic amounts of economical lithium in Western Australia. There are still large untapped lithium in North Catalina. There is untapped potential for lithium in Czech Republic. There are lithium projects in Canada as well. There are lots of companies working on lithium extraction from clay salts, and if that is cracked, the amount is literally unlimited. In fact, once you start locking into batteries, by far the biggest problem is actually nickel, not lithium. Nickel is of course already a large market because of stainless steel and already having issues with growth. Once we add absurd amounts of battery production for cathodes, the nickel is by far the biggest bottleneck. Getting away from nickel would be the real win condition in terms of price and sustainability. Lithium mining is actually relatively reasonable environmentally speaking. Nickel mining however is growing in Indonesia where they use very bad process and using coal power to do it. It doesn't help that we are already at 80-90% nickel in the cathode, and likely soon go to almost 100%. In comparison, lithium is only 1-2% of the battery, while nickel is around 50% depending on what and how we measure. There is a reason Elon Musk tweeted out 'Mine more nickel' and not 'Mine more lithium'.

maxerickson 6y ago

"twice" is probably a reference to some measure of energy density.

cmroanirgo 6y ago

Just to clarify that the solid-state battery still uses Lithium (but not Lithium-Ion): the article states: > The electric vehicles being developed by Toyota will have a range more than twice the distance of a vehicle running on a conventional lithium-ion battery under the same conditions and > Because solid-state batteries use lithium, an element with limited global reserves, the government will assist in procuring the material. It seems that Lithium will be the next oil crisis, especially if governments will be directly involved in the procurement...and I agree with parent, we must do better than Lithium. Perhaps good 'ol Hydrogen? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP-ZPM0nKkk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP-ZPM0nKkk)

gonzo41 6y ago
It really won't Western Australia just needs to get intersted in mining Lithium and there will be enough over the longer term.
mulmen 6y ago
I'm not so sure. Hydrogen is a consumable but lithium isn't. I asked in another comment but what's the closed-loop story with lithium batteries?

xbmcuser 6y ago

Why do we need to get off Lithium its an abundant mineral. If its about dirty mining there is not guarantee other minerals will be mined cleanly either.

cinquemb 6y ago
Most of it is uneconomical to collect.
- mulmen 6y ago
  Honest question: what's the recycling story? Oil is a consumable but lithium is not. A battery can be charged and discharged and then recycled. My understanding is that the biggest limitations with lithium battery recycling are the economics. Lead-acid batteries are already highly recyclable. Seems like as lithium gets harder to extract the economic forces will prioritize recyclable batteries.
  - cinquemb 6y ago
    Heres an acs[0] article that talks about it a bit from 2019 under "Challenges in recycling Li-ion batteries": " Just as economic factors can make the case for recycling batteries, they also make the case against it. Large fluctuations in the prices of raw battery materials, for example, cast uncertainty on the economics of recycling. In particular, the recent large drop in cobalt’s price raises questions about whether recycling Li-ion batteries or repurposing them is a good business choice compared with manufacturing new batteries with fresh materials. Basically, if the price of cobalt drops, recycled cobalt would struggle to compete with mined cobalt in terms of price, and manufacturers would choose mined material over recycled, forcing recyclers out of business. Another long-term financial concern for companies considering stepping into battery recycling is whether a different type of battery, such as Li air, or a different vehicle propulsion system, like hydrogen-powered fuel cells, will gain a major foothold on the electric-vehicle market in coming years, lowering the demand for recycling Li-ion batteries. Battery chemistry also complicates recycling. Since the early 1990s when Sony commercialized Li-ion batteries, researchers have repeatedly tailored the cathode’s composition to reduce cost and to enhance charge capacity, longevity, recharge time, and other performance parameters. Some Li-ion batteries use cathodes made of lithium cobalt oxide (LCO). Others use lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide (NMC), lithium nickel cobalt aluminum oxide, lithium iron phosphate, or other materials. And the proportions of the components within one type of cathode—for example, NMC—can vary substantially among manufacturers. The upshot is that Li-ion batteries contain “a wide diversity of ever-evolving materials, which makes recycling challenging,” says Liang An, a battery-recycling specialist at Hong Kong Polytechnic University. Recyclers may need to sort and separate batteries by composition to meet the specifications of people buying the recycled materials, making the process more complicated and raising costs. Battery structure further complicates recycling efforts. Li-ion batteries are compact, complex devices, come in a variety of sizes and shapes, and are not designed to be disassembled. Each cell contains a cathode, anode, separator, and electrolyte. Cathodes generally consist of an electrochemically active powder (LCO, NMC, etc.) mixed with carbon black and glued to an aluminum-foil current collector with a polymeric compound such as poly(vinylidene fluoride) (PVDF). Anodes usually contain graphite, PVDF, and copper foil. Separators, which insulate the electrodes to prevent short circuiting, are thin, porous plastic films, often polyethylene or polypropylene. The electrolyte is typically a solution of LiPF6 dissolved in a mixture of ethylene carbonate and dimethyl carbonate. The components are tightly wound or stacked and packed securely in a plastic or aluminum case. Large battery packs that power electric vehicles may contain several thousand cells grouped in modules. The packs also include sensors, safety devices, and circuitry that controls battery operation, all of which add yet another layer of complexity and additional costs to dismantling and recycling. All these battery components and materials need to be dealt with by a recycler to get at the valuable metals and other materials. In stark contrast, lead-acid car batteries are easily disassembled, and the lead, which accounts for about 60% of a battery’s weight, can be separated quickly from the other components. As a result, nearly 100% of the lead in these batteries is recycled in the US, far surpassing recycling rates for glass, paper, and other materials." [0] https://cen.acs.org/materials/energy-storage/time-serious-recycling-lithium/97/i28?PageSpeed=noscript https://cen.acs.org/materials/energy-storage/time-serious-re...

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

cinquemb 6y ago

> The main problem here is that it's still dependent on Lithium, and we've really got to get off that. Yeah, I'm more interested in other salt batteries for thermal storage with high delta_k combined with efficient thermoelectric couples but it seems like big money is behind all things Li electrochemical for the forseable future.

elihu 6y ago

Lithium is pretty cheap and abundant; if it becomes a problem we'll just have to figure out how to extract it in less efficient ways (from sea water, perhaps?). Cobalt is a bigger bottleneck resource. Without details, it's hard to know if this Toyota battery require cobalt (or some other expensive rare-earth mineral). Most lithium-ion chemistries require cobalt, and a lot of the advances and cost improvements in recent years have been around figuring out how to use less. LiFePO4 doesn't use cobalt at all, but has mediocre energy density.

clouddrover 6y ago
> if it becomes a problem we'll just have to figure out how to extract it in less efficient ways Or more economically with a lower environmental impact: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20201124-how-geothermal-lithium-could-revolutionise-green-energy https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20201124-how-geothermal-l...

nickik 6y ago

Lithium is not even remotely the problem. There is gigantic amounts of economical lithium in Western Australia. There are still large untapped lithium in North Catalina. There is untapped potential for lithium in Czech Republic. There are lithium projects in Canada as well. There are lots of companies working on lithium extraction from clay salts, and if that is cracked, the amount is literally unlimited. In fact, once you start locking into batteries, by far the biggest problem is actually nickel, not lithium. Nickel is of course already a large market because of stainless steel and already having issues with growth. Once we add absurd amounts of battery production for cathodes, the nickel is by far the biggest bottleneck. Getting away from nickel would be the real win condition in terms of price and sustainability. Lithium mining is actually relatively reasonable environmentally speaking. Nickel mining however is growing in Indonesia where they use very bad process and using coal power to do it. It doesn't help that we are already at 80-90% nickel in the cathode, and likely soon go to almost 100%. In comparison, lithium is only 1-2% of the battery, while nickel is around 50% depending on what and how we measure. There is a reason Elon Musk tweeted out 'Mine more nickel' and not 'Mine more lithium'.