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There will always be loopholes. Companies don't HAVE to create a double Irish dutch sandwich, creating webs of companies that loan IP to each other and other s

There will always be loopholes. Companies don't HAVE to create a double Irish dutch sandwich, creating webs of companies that loan IP to each other and other such nonsense. They make a choice to do this. This isn't about them overpaying or "donating". This is about them doing the right thing. https://www.theguardian.com/media/2020/nov/28/netflix-to-start-declaring-1bn-plus-uk-revenues-to-hmrc-google-amazon-tax-arrangements https://www.theguardian.com/media/2020/nov/28/netflix-to-sta... They can do the right thing. They just choose not to.

vmception 6y ago
You see that's the difference between you and I. I don't view countries as representations of righteous morality, I view them as market participants, no different than you or I or a corporation or a financial institution is a market participant. Speculators with legitimate reasons to stuff their coffers. There are many people and organizations like me, and make no mistake, the other countries around a country thinks the exact same way. When a country cannot reach consensus on how to tax, that is a prison of their own creation. When a coalition of countries cannot reach consensus on how to curb behaviors they don't like, that is also a prison of their own creation. They are in competition with each other. Some of us are playing by a set of rules that recognizes that, it is also a more effective set of rules.
- allendoerfer 6y ago
  You do realize how laws are being made and how loopholes find their way into tax codes? States are not individuals, you cannot treat them like a person, just being to dumb to do what's good for them. They are run by many people everyone of which having their own profit motives. So it is very easy to lobby them into doing stuff detrimental to the general public. It is much easier for a company run by its founders to act morally. Airbnb does not, which to me is not the end of the world, but worth pointing out in thread about how great those founders supposedly are. Suggesting that it is just the state's fault is a naive view.
  - vmception 6y ago
    I understand that and it reinforces my opinion, lobbying works because representatives and sometimes officials with unilateral control are told to do things because they are too dumb to do what's good for them. That is lobbying, the word used when you respect that particular country, or corruption, the word used when you don't respect that particular country. In my experience across jurisdictions, the process is analogous. The obvious answer that you haven't accepted is that, in this conversation, you are a diver surrounded by amoral sharks. We all view and see the gradient of relativity and are not swayed by your arguments. The consequences guide the actions, and a municipality's hotel tax or zoning laws are the toothless kinds of laws, so toothless that it isn't even worth bothering to change them. Did you see how gig apps lobbied with push notifications against California laws and referendums and court rulings? Because of the consequences.
pembrook 6y ago
It’s pretty easy to see that expecting people to do “the right thing”...when you have poorly defined what “the right thing” is...will result in problems. The Irish Dutch sandwich would cease to exist if governments wanted to stop it. It’s the responsibility of the people to vote for politicians who aren’t corrupt and will make laws to properly represent our intentions instead of enriching their buddies. It’s not the companies fault, they are simply following the incentives. All companies have competitors, and if you design a loophole, the nature of competition will force all companies to follow it. Lest your competitor gain a profitable advantage. Fix the game and players will follow the new rules overnight.
- gjulianm 6y ago
  > will make laws to properly represent our intentions instead of enriching their buddies. Buddies like... the companies that use those loopholes. > if you design a loophole, the nature of competition will force all companies to follow it Does it also force them to lobby to keep that loophole? > Lest your competitor gain a profitable advantage. Is the differential value of Airbnb using tax loopholes? Do you mean to say that if Airbnb stops using tax schemes, a competitor will pop up and be in an advantage? > Fix the game and players will follow the new rules overnight. Players will complain and try to lobby and even blackmail governments trying to fix the game, and will also actively try to find new loopholes. Really, we need to hold companies accountable for these schemes. It's very hypocritical to praise the grit and the motivation of the founders but consider the company an abstract and amoral entity whenever it comes to things like paying taxes. Stop excusing bad behavior.
- allendoerfer 6y ago
  You are personifying "the people" or "the state". Your argument does not make sense. Everyone has their ownn priorities, resulting in this situation. Not all politians are corrupt, it is just very hard to change things if all the money is so overwhelmingly against it and the topic is not big enough to really enrage the public.
  - pembrook 6y ago
    In a representative democracy, the people and the state are the same thing. So effectively, by not caring enough to close these loopholes, the people have sanctioned this behavior as okay. You personally may disagree with it, but apparently a majority of your countrymen do not see it as a big problem. Otherwise it would already be solved.

vmception 6y ago

You see that's the difference between you and I. I don't view countries as representations of righteous morality, I view them as market participants, no different than you or I or a corporation or a financial institution is a market participant. Speculators with legitimate reasons to stuff their coffers. There are many people and organizations like me, and make no mistake, the other countries around a country thinks the exact same way. When a country cannot reach consensus on how to tax, that is a prison of their own creation. When a coalition of countries cannot reach consensus on how to curb behaviors they don't like, that is also a prison of their own creation. They are in competition with each other. Some of us are playing by a set of rules that recognizes that, it is also a more effective set of rules.

allendoerfer 6y ago
You do realize how laws are being made and how loopholes find their way into tax codes? States are not individuals, you cannot treat them like a person, just being to dumb to do what's good for them. They are run by many people everyone of which having their own profit motives. So it is very easy to lobby them into doing stuff detrimental to the general public. It is much easier for a company run by its founders to act morally. Airbnb does not, which to me is not the end of the world, but worth pointing out in thread about how great those founders supposedly are. Suggesting that it is just the state's fault is a naive view.
- vmception 6y ago
  I understand that and it reinforces my opinion, lobbying works because representatives and sometimes officials with unilateral control are told to do things because they are too dumb to do what's good for them. That is lobbying, the word used when you respect that particular country, or corruption, the word used when you don't respect that particular country. In my experience across jurisdictions, the process is analogous. The obvious answer that you haven't accepted is that, in this conversation, you are a diver surrounded by amoral sharks. We all view and see the gradient of relativity and are not swayed by your arguments. The consequences guide the actions, and a municipality's hotel tax or zoning laws are the toothless kinds of laws, so toothless that it isn't even worth bothering to change them. Did you see how gig apps lobbied with push notifications against California laws and referendums and court rulings? Because of the consequences.

pembrook 6y ago

It’s pretty easy to see that expecting people to do “the right thing”...when you have poorly defined what “the right thing” is...will result in problems. The Irish Dutch sandwich would cease to exist if governments wanted to stop it. It’s the responsibility of the people to vote for politicians who aren’t corrupt and will make laws to properly represent our intentions instead of enriching their buddies. It’s not the companies fault, they are simply following the incentives. All companies have competitors, and if you design a loophole, the nature of competition will force all companies to follow it. Lest your competitor gain a profitable advantage. Fix the game and players will follow the new rules overnight.

gjulianm 6y ago
> will make laws to properly represent our intentions instead of enriching their buddies. Buddies like... the companies that use those loopholes. > if you design a loophole, the nature of competition will force all companies to follow it Does it also force them to lobby to keep that loophole? > Lest your competitor gain a profitable advantage. Is the differential value of Airbnb using tax loopholes? Do you mean to say that if Airbnb stops using tax schemes, a competitor will pop up and be in an advantage? > Fix the game and players will follow the new rules overnight. Players will complain and try to lobby and even blackmail governments trying to fix the game, and will also actively try to find new loopholes. Really, we need to hold companies accountable for these schemes. It's very hypocritical to praise the grit and the motivation of the founders but consider the company an abstract and amoral entity whenever it comes to things like paying taxes. Stop excusing bad behavior.
allendoerfer 6y ago
You are personifying "the people" or "the state". Your argument does not make sense. Everyone has their ownn priorities, resulting in this situation. Not all politians are corrupt, it is just very hard to change things if all the money is so overwhelmingly against it and the topic is not big enough to really enrage the public.
- pembrook 6y ago
  In a representative democracy, the people and the state are the same thing. So effectively, by not caring enough to close these loopholes, the people have sanctioned this behavior as okay. You personally may disagree with it, but apparently a majority of your countrymen do not see it as a big problem. Otherwise it would already be solved.