9 ms·

No mention of how this business was built on the back of people running illegal hotels. It wasn't hard work or passion that allowed these guys to become billio

by slg 6y ago

No mention of how this business was built on the back of people running illegal hotels. It wasn't hard work or passion that allowed these guys to become billionaires. It was finding a niche in the market that was regulated out due to a combination of valid consumer safety concerns and regulatory capture, targeting that market, ignoring the law when it didn't suit them, and getting large enough by the time the law caught up it was no longer politically feasible to kill the company. It is the same process that other tech companies have gone down such as Uber.

dabeeeenster 6y ago
They are also scrupulous tax avoiders in the UK. Pay your fair fucking share.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- natchy 6y ago
  IMO its in the public's interest to not suffocate startups. different story now that they've IPO'd.
- oh_sigh 6y ago
  Do you not take any legal deductions on the taxes you pay? I'd imagine you are a tax avoider too.
  - Layke1123 6y ago
    Do you not legally cheat on your significant other? I'd imagine you are a cheater too.
    - Layke1123 6y ago
      Can anyone explain to me why I am being downvoted for this? It was not a direct assault, only a statement to try to show deficiency in an argument. If it needs to be edited to seem such as, please let me know how it could be better worded if you see merit in the argument.
- jzwinck 6y ago
  Write tax laws that are clear, simple, automatable and enforced. Then people will pay tax. Complicated tax laws beget complicated tax dodges. At this point no one in the UK or US or many other countries is able to answer a simple question like "Has this company paid the amount of tax we intended?" It's all gray areas, and it's all your fault, not the foreign companies'.
  - disiplus 6y ago
    That is a bullshit argument, even when writing code, there are bug's in it. And if you exploit a bug to gain access to something that you don't have access it does not magically make it your's. the same if you found a way to open the door of the house you cannot say it's my house the door had a loophole. Most of those loopholes are exploitable only with a setup that those multi billion international companyes have access to. It's one thing to to take care of you own set of taxes you have to operate in a international context.
- pembrook 6y ago
  If a tax scheme is poorly designed and has loopholes, the correct way to solve the problem is to redesign said tax scheme and close the loopholes. Not to complain about individual actors following the schemes that you set up. Why do you feel Airbnb should voluntarily donate money to the government beyond what they are legally required? How much should they donate? Will all other companies be required to provide this donation, or just the high profile ones that upset you?
  - dabeeeenster 6y ago
    There will always be loopholes. Companies don't HAVE to create a double Irish dutch sandwich, creating webs of companies that loan IP to each other and other such nonsense. They make a choice to do this. This isn't about them overpaying or "donating". This is about them doing the right thing. https://www.theguardian.com/media/2020/nov/28/netflix-to-start-declaring-1bn-plus-uk-revenues-to-hmrc-google-amazon-tax-arrangements https://www.theguardian.com/media/2020/nov/28/netflix-to-sta... They can do the right thing. They just choose not to.
    - vmception 6y ago
      You see that's the difference between you and I. I don't view countries as representations of righteous morality, I view them as market participants, no different than you or I or a corporation or a financial institution is a market participant. Speculators with legitimate reasons to stuff their coffers. There are many people and organizations like me, and make no mistake, the other countries around a country thinks the exact same way. When a country cannot reach consensus on how to tax, that is a prison of their own creation. When a coalition of countries cannot reach consensus on how to curb behaviors they don't like, that is also a prison of their own creation. They are in competition with each other. Some of us are playing by a set of rules that recognizes that, it is also a more effective set of rules.
      - allendoerfer 6y ago
        You do realize how laws are being made and how loopholes find their way into tax codes? States are not individuals, you cannot treat them like a person, just being to dumb to do what's good for them. They are run by many people everyone of which having their own profit motives. So it is very easy to lobby them into doing stuff detrimental to the general public. It is much easier for a company run by its founders to act morally. Airbnb does not, which to me is not the end of the world, but worth pointing out in thread about how great those founders supposedly are. Suggesting that it is just the state's fault is a naive view.
- papito 6y ago
  Whoever heard of paying back to a country that helped you get rich! Nonsense, Sir!
ztratar 6y ago
Same thing happened with many of the first car manufacturers, electricity providers (Edison getting localities to ban alternating current), etc. In many areas the Airbnbs were not illegal, and sometimes "regulatory capture" should be fought as unjust. Of course, in other areas, you're totally right that sometimes the local regulations should win, the company fined, etc. All depends on what the local community wants, imo.
- slg 6y ago
  >sometimes "regulatory capture" should be fought as unjust. The problem is that Airbnb was the one deciding what laws to ignore. Odds are the group of laws they considered regulatory capture were much bigger than the group of laws that were considered regulatory capture by consumer protections groups. There is not a clear delineation between what laws truly protect people and what laws only give that appearance. The proper way to fight regulatory capture is through the political system. The "It's easier to ask forgiveness than it is to get permission" mindset can be dangerous when it is applied to issues of public safety.
samirillian 6y ago
With the sad result of contributing to rent inflating well beyond peoples' means. We are in the midst of a pretty grim housing crisis. Almost 70k homeless in LA. This doesn't make anyone involved a bad person, but we must recognize how this company has contributed to a structural crisis. Can't say I know the solution myself, but.
- pembrook 6y ago
  Housing in LA/SF is not expensive because of Airbnb or “evil Chinese investors” or any other random boogieman the media is trying to scare you about. I’d put them near the bottom of the list of “things that make housing expensive.” At peak, there was about 20-40k listings in greater Los Angeles on Airbnb. There’s roughly 19 million people in greater LA. Average household size in the US is 2.6 ppl. Let’s round up to 3 and be generous. That means there’s roughly 6.3 million households in greater LA. Even if 100% of those Airbnb’s are suitable as full time residences (its probably more like 30%), the 20-40k units wouldn’t even cover a single year of newcomers to greater LA (yes, the core is shrinking but the greater metro is growing). The main (key word) reason housing is expensive is due to geographic and local government restrictions on zoning and development which chokes off supply relative to the number of people who want to live there. Not some silly web app for millennial travelers.
  - demadog 6y ago
    In addition, homelessness is mainly a result of mental health issues (not entirely, ok) - and not housing prices. And many homeless come to LA and SF from other areas that are not as friendly to the homeless. Which is why there are a lot less in Dallas suburbs than downtown LA.
    - slg 6y ago
      You are pretty reductive in your description of homeless people. Sure, some people end up in that situation because of mental illness or move to these areas after already becoming homeless, but that is not the majority of homeless people. >L.A.H.S.A.’s 2019 homeless count found that 64 percent of the 58,936 Los Angeles County residents experiencing homelessness had lived in the city for more than 10 years. Less than a fifth (18 percent) said they had lived out of state before becoming homeless. >More than half of the people surveyed in Los Angeles cited economic hardship as the primary reason that they fell into homelessness. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/us/homeless-population.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/us/homeless-population.ht...
lipanski 6y ago
Airbnb enabled a great range of people to see places they might have never afforded to see before. It managed to commoditize travelling in a similar way low-cost airlines did. On top of that, it enabled regions with no previous tourism revenue to have a slice of the cake. Sure, the company made a good profit while there was a profit to make, but their service benefited consumers as well and I think it did leave a positive impact not only on the travellers but also on some of the communities that understood how to balance its pros and cons.
- poisonarena 6y ago
  I am one of those people, AirBnB enabled me to travel the world, especially to places I would have never thought to go because I always could fall back on AirBnB for support (and I have, as lousy as it sometimes can be)
- gjulianm 6y ago
  It also created a market that pushed prices up in residential zones in major cities, kicked out neighbors and screwed up the rental market. For example, in my city, rental offers for residents almost duplicated when COVID hit due to AirBnB rentals being empty. If we're talking about people not affording things, we need to focus on people not affording housing before tourism. > some of the communities that understood how to balance its pros and cons AirBnB worked against a lot of those communities that tried to balance the pros and cons https://www.wired.com/story/inside-airbnbs-guerrilla-war-against-local-governments/ https://www.wired.com/story/inside-airbnbs-guerrilla-war-aga...
  - boringg 6y ago
    I know a guy who airbnb out one of his apartments he rented so he live in a larger nicer apartment. Feels bad that people did that. I think Airbnb when it first came out was great. Like all things tech (a bit broad of a statement) once it got out into the world in a real way it lost its allure. Facebook was great when it started, reddit, instagram, google, etc. Once people figure out how to co-opt the technology for their own uses (or maybe just the drive for ad revenue kills off all the fun or novelty wears off) it loses its lustre quite a bit. Sorry to be downbeat - technology doesn't feel as fun as it was even like 3-4 years ago let alone back in the 00s or the 90s. Or maybe I'm just aging out.
narrator 6y ago
If they didn't have a semi-legal business model, someone with a lot of money would have eaten their lunch already. By being in a gray area, they can avoid competition from the publicly traded behemoths. After all, AirBnB isn't that hard of a website to copy. Facebook could have ripped the whole concept off, if they wanted to get into that business, in about 2 months.
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  There is no legal business there to be had with such returns. The website, indeed, was trivial. It was also not how AirBnB made money. They made money by enabling and encouraging individuals to make money illegally.
Dig1t 6y ago
All I know is that Airbnb has made a positive impact on my life. I've been able to go on several trips and stayed in some really great places that I wouldn't have been able to without it. As a college student it allowed me to attend conferences that I wouldn't have been able to afford, take trips with friends, etc. and as a working person I would still choose it over a hotel many times. Hotels are expensive, with lots of hidden fees and very little innovation. I'm glad they found a loophole, I think hotels shouldn't be as regulated as they are.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
jjeaff 6y ago
I always tend to check airbnb options nearby before booking a hotel. I almost never find a cheaper option through Airbnb. At least that is comparable in quality to the hotels I would be interested in.

by slg 6y ago

dabeeeenster 6y ago

They are also scrupulous tax avoiders in the UK. Pay your fair fucking share.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
natchy 6y ago
IMO its in the public's interest to not suffocate startups. different story now that they've IPO'd.
oh_sigh 6y ago
Do you not take any legal deductions on the taxes you pay? I'd imagine you are a tax avoider too.
- Layke1123 6y ago
  Do you not legally cheat on your significant other? I'd imagine you are a cheater too.
  - Layke1123 6y ago
    Can anyone explain to me why I am being downvoted for this? It was not a direct assault, only a statement to try to show deficiency in an argument. If it needs to be edited to seem such as, please let me know how it could be better worded if you see merit in the argument.
jzwinck 6y ago
Write tax laws that are clear, simple, automatable and enforced. Then people will pay tax. Complicated tax laws beget complicated tax dodges. At this point no one in the UK or US or many other countries is able to answer a simple question like "Has this company paid the amount of tax we intended?" It's all gray areas, and it's all your fault, not the foreign companies'.
- disiplus 6y ago
  That is a bullshit argument, even when writing code, there are bug's in it. And if you exploit a bug to gain access to something that you don't have access it does not magically make it your's. the same if you found a way to open the door of the house you cannot say it's my house the door had a loophole. Most of those loopholes are exploitable only with a setup that those multi billion international companyes have access to. It's one thing to to take care of you own set of taxes you have to operate in a international context.
pembrook 6y ago
If a tax scheme is poorly designed and has loopholes, the correct way to solve the problem is to redesign said tax scheme and close the loopholes. Not to complain about individual actors following the schemes that you set up. Why do you feel Airbnb should voluntarily donate money to the government beyond what they are legally required? How much should they donate? Will all other companies be required to provide this donation, or just the high profile ones that upset you?
- dabeeeenster 6y ago
  There will always be loopholes. Companies don't HAVE to create a double Irish dutch sandwich, creating webs of companies that loan IP to each other and other such nonsense. They make a choice to do this. This isn't about them overpaying or "donating". This is about them doing the right thing. https://www.theguardian.com/media/2020/nov/28/netflix-to-start-declaring-1bn-plus-uk-revenues-to-hmrc-google-amazon-tax-arrangements https://www.theguardian.com/media/2020/nov/28/netflix-to-sta... They can do the right thing. They just choose not to.
  - vmception 6y ago
    You see that's the difference between you and I. I don't view countries as representations of righteous morality, I view them as market participants, no different than you or I or a corporation or a financial institution is a market participant. Speculators with legitimate reasons to stuff their coffers. There are many people and organizations like me, and make no mistake, the other countries around a country thinks the exact same way. When a country cannot reach consensus on how to tax, that is a prison of their own creation. When a coalition of countries cannot reach consensus on how to curb behaviors they don't like, that is also a prison of their own creation. They are in competition with each other. Some of us are playing by a set of rules that recognizes that, it is also a more effective set of rules.
    - allendoerfer 6y ago
      You do realize how laws are being made and how loopholes find their way into tax codes? States are not individuals, you cannot treat them like a person, just being to dumb to do what's good for them. They are run by many people everyone of which having their own profit motives. So it is very easy to lobby them into doing stuff detrimental to the general public. It is much easier for a company run by its founders to act morally. Airbnb does not, which to me is not the end of the world, but worth pointing out in thread about how great those founders supposedly are. Suggesting that it is just the state's fault is a naive view.
papito 6y ago
Whoever heard of paying back to a country that helped you get rich! Nonsense, Sir!

ztratar 6y ago

Same thing happened with many of the first car manufacturers, electricity providers (Edison getting localities to ban alternating current), etc. In many areas the Airbnbs were not illegal, and sometimes "regulatory capture" should be fought as unjust. Of course, in other areas, you're totally right that sometimes the local regulations should win, the company fined, etc. All depends on what the local community wants, imo.

slg 6y ago
>sometimes "regulatory capture" should be fought as unjust. The problem is that Airbnb was the one deciding what laws to ignore. Odds are the group of laws they considered regulatory capture were much bigger than the group of laws that were considered regulatory capture by consumer protections groups. There is not a clear delineation between what laws truly protect people and what laws only give that appearance. The proper way to fight regulatory capture is through the political system. The "It's easier to ask forgiveness than it is to get permission" mindset can be dangerous when it is applied to issues of public safety.

samirillian 6y ago

With the sad result of contributing to rent inflating well beyond peoples' means. We are in the midst of a pretty grim housing crisis. Almost 70k homeless in LA. This doesn't make anyone involved a bad person, but we must recognize how this company has contributed to a structural crisis. Can't say I know the solution myself, but.

pembrook 6y ago
Housing in LA/SF is not expensive because of Airbnb or “evil Chinese investors” or any other random boogieman the media is trying to scare you about. I’d put them near the bottom of the list of “things that make housing expensive.” At peak, there was about 20-40k listings in greater Los Angeles on Airbnb. There’s roughly 19 million people in greater LA. Average household size in the US is 2.6 ppl. Let’s round up to 3 and be generous. That means there’s roughly 6.3 million households in greater LA. Even if 100% of those Airbnb’s are suitable as full time residences (its probably more like 30%), the 20-40k units wouldn’t even cover a single year of newcomers to greater LA (yes, the core is shrinking but the greater metro is growing). The main (key word) reason housing is expensive is due to geographic and local government restrictions on zoning and development which chokes off supply relative to the number of people who want to live there. Not some silly web app for millennial travelers.
- demadog 6y ago
  In addition, homelessness is mainly a result of mental health issues (not entirely, ok) - and not housing prices. And many homeless come to LA and SF from other areas that are not as friendly to the homeless. Which is why there are a lot less in Dallas suburbs than downtown LA.
  - slg 6y ago
    You are pretty reductive in your description of homeless people. Sure, some people end up in that situation because of mental illness or move to these areas after already becoming homeless, but that is not the majority of homeless people. >L.A.H.S.A.’s 2019 homeless count found that 64 percent of the 58,936 Los Angeles County residents experiencing homelessness had lived in the city for more than 10 years. Less than a fifth (18 percent) said they had lived out of state before becoming homeless. >More than half of the people surveyed in Los Angeles cited economic hardship as the primary reason that they fell into homelessness. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/us/homeless-population.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/us/homeless-population.ht...

lipanski 6y ago

Airbnb enabled a great range of people to see places they might have never afforded to see before. It managed to commoditize travelling in a similar way low-cost airlines did. On top of that, it enabled regions with no previous tourism revenue to have a slice of the cake. Sure, the company made a good profit while there was a profit to make, but their service benefited consumers as well and I think it did leave a positive impact not only on the travellers but also on some of the communities that understood how to balance its pros and cons.

poisonarena 6y ago
I am one of those people, AirBnB enabled me to travel the world, especially to places I would have never thought to go because I always could fall back on AirBnB for support (and I have, as lousy as it sometimes can be)
gjulianm 6y ago
It also created a market that pushed prices up in residential zones in major cities, kicked out neighbors and screwed up the rental market. For example, in my city, rental offers for residents almost duplicated when COVID hit due to AirBnB rentals being empty. If we're talking about people not affording things, we need to focus on people not affording housing before tourism. > some of the communities that understood how to balance its pros and cons AirBnB worked against a lot of those communities that tried to balance the pros and cons https://www.wired.com/story/inside-airbnbs-guerrilla-war-against-local-governments/ https://www.wired.com/story/inside-airbnbs-guerrilla-war-aga...
- boringg 6y ago
  I know a guy who airbnb out one of his apartments he rented so he live in a larger nicer apartment. Feels bad that people did that. I think Airbnb when it first came out was great. Like all things tech (a bit broad of a statement) once it got out into the world in a real way it lost its allure. Facebook was great when it started, reddit, instagram, google, etc. Once people figure out how to co-opt the technology for their own uses (or maybe just the drive for ad revenue kills off all the fun or novelty wears off) it loses its lustre quite a bit. Sorry to be downbeat - technology doesn't feel as fun as it was even like 3-4 years ago let alone back in the 00s or the 90s. Or maybe I'm just aging out.

narrator 6y ago

If they didn't have a semi-legal business model, someone with a lot of money would have eaten their lunch already. By being in a gray area, they can avoid competition from the publicly traded behemoths. After all, AirBnB isn't that hard of a website to copy. Facebook could have ripped the whole concept off, if they wanted to get into that business, in about 2 months.

TeMPOraL 6y ago
There is no legal business there to be had with such returns. The website, indeed, was trivial. It was also not how AirBnB made money. They made money by enabling and encouraging individuals to make money illegally.

Dig1t 6y ago

All I know is that Airbnb has made a positive impact on my life. I've been able to go on several trips and stayed in some really great places that I wouldn't have been able to without it. As a college student it allowed me to attend conferences that I wouldn't have been able to afford, take trips with friends, etc. and as a working person I would still choose it over a hotel many times. Hotels are expensive, with lots of hidden fees and very little innovation. I'm glad they found a loophole, I think hotels shouldn't be as regulated as they are.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

jjeaff 6y ago

I always tend to check airbnb options nearby before booking a hotel. I almost never find a cheaper option through Airbnb. At least that is comparable in quality to the hotels I would be interested in.