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My parents moved from an Eastern European country to a Western European country before the 4 "freedoms" of the EU existed. They were as free as I am today to mo

My parents moved from an Eastern European country to a Western European country before the 4 "freedoms" of the EU existed. They were as free as I am today to move from one place to another, settle and make a life for themselves. And they were not privileged at all. My other worked hard as a nurse, working more hours than the average person works today and my father was a waiter in a restaurant, always struggling, yet they had freedom to move to Belgium first and then they had the freedom to move to Austria to work and live there too, before the EU decided to give us "freedoms". I was born as a free human being and refuse to accept that the only reason why I was able to move to the UK is because the EU was so graceful to give me the freedom of movement. If I wanted to I could move to any other country in the world which isn't part of the EU as well, so clearly my freedom has nothing to do with the current 4 "freedoms".

HatchedLake721 6y ago
I think you don't understand what those 4 freedoms mean and what freedom of movement exactly is, you take things for granted. No, just because "you were born a free human" (whatever you mean by this) you wouldn't be able to easily move to the UK if it was not for the freedom of movement. The only reason you were able to _easily_ immigrate to the UK is because of freedom of movement and UK being part of the single market. Speak with anyone trying to stay in the UK (being from outside the EU). I'll tell you a secret, it's very hard, and it costs money. It costs employers, who'll need to go through headache of sponsoring your visa, and it'll cost you, who'll need to pay to the Home Office if you want to stay. I have numerous friends and people I studied and worked with over the last 12 years in the UK that couldn't stay. They were from Russia, Australia, Ukraine, Saudi Arabia, etc. Every time I discussed with them their visa situation and attempts to stay in the country, I thanked god that where I emigrated from, we've joined the European Union and I don't have to deal with these issues. It's a nightmare. You, as a EU national, can look for a job and work here without a permit, you can reside here without a permit, you can stay here after studies or employment, and from legal point of view, you enjoy equal, non-discriminatory treatment with same rights and access to employment, working conditions, social & health security and tax advantages as UK citizens. No, you cannot have the same and "move to any other country in the world which isn't part of the EU as well, so clearly my freedom has nothing to do with the current 4 "freedoms"."
- dustinmoris 6y ago
  > you wouldn't be able to easily move to the UK if it was not for the freedom of movement Neither you nor I can know this at this point, since I'm already here. > The only reason you were able to _easily_ immigrate to the UK is because of freedom of movement This is factually wrong and is at most your personal opinion. There are many reasons why someone can immigrate _easily_. For example the UK is currently recruiting many doctors and nurses and people of those professions will have it significantly _easier_ to move to the UK than others. > I have numerous friends and people I studied and worked with over the last 12 years in the UK that couldn't stay. I also have numerous friends and people who I worked with and they could stay. So could my family members who also moved to the UK from a non EU country. > Every time I discussed with them their visa situation and attempts to stay in the country, I thanked god that where I emigrated from, we've joined the European Union and I don't have to deal with these issues. This is partly the fault of having no control over EU immigration, forcing richer EU countries to have harsher restriction on non EU countries (this is even more true for other EU countries, the UK is already much friendlier in its immigration laws in comparison to the others in the EU). > You, as a EU national, can look for a job and work here without a permit, you can reside here without a permit, you can stay here after studies or employment, and from legal point of view, you enjoy equal, non-discriminatory treatment with same rights and access to employment, working conditions, social & health security and tax advantages as UK citizens Yes, so my EU passport elevates me above other nationalities. Not exactly something to be proud of in my honest opinion. I rather compete on an even playing field, but maybe that's just me. > No, you cannot have the same and "move to any other country in the world which isn't part of the EU as well, so clearly my freedom has nothing to do with the current 4 "freedoms"." That's just your personal opinion and if I had a desire to move to another non EU country I'd probably prove you wrong. Where there is a will there is a way. I'm certain that I could find a job, get a work permit and build a life elsewhere and eventually naturalise there if I decide to call it my home.
  - HatchedLake721 6y ago
    You're mudding the waters and missing the point. If you're on Hacker News, I assume you work in IT. Of course you can find a job in any part of the world. You have one of the most desired and in demand professions in the world. No one argues about that. But being in privileged position like yours and saying 4 freedoms don't benefit _regular people_?! No one cares if you personally are proud or not that EU nationals have equal rights, but these equal rights exist, regardless of what you think or feel, because it's a fact and a law which along with other 3 freedoms have been playing huge role in shaping the European Union. And it benefits everyone of almost 500 million EU nationals today, including whoever you mean by _regular people_. This discussion is about you saying "None of the 4 freedoms of the EU is actually beneficial to regular people". Saying that, you either: 1) Don't know what you're talking about 2) Or you're delusional I will assume you're not delusional, but a logical person, since you're on Hacker News and you can understand rational argument. So please, research what free movement of goods, capital, services and labour actually means and has done for everyone in Europe, including _regular people_. Saying they're not beneficial is nonsense, and means you haven't done your homework.

HatchedLake721 6y ago

I think you don't understand what those 4 freedoms mean and what freedom of movement exactly is, you take things for granted. No, just because "you were born a free human" (whatever you mean by this) you wouldn't be able to easily move to the UK if it was not for the freedom of movement. The only reason you were able to _easily_ immigrate to the UK is because of freedom of movement and UK being part of the single market. Speak with anyone trying to stay in the UK (being from outside the EU). I'll tell you a secret, it's very hard, and it costs money. It costs employers, who'll need to go through headache of sponsoring your visa, and it'll cost you, who'll need to pay to the Home Office if you want to stay. I have numerous friends and people I studied and worked with over the last 12 years in the UK that couldn't stay. They were from Russia, Australia, Ukraine, Saudi Arabia, etc. Every time I discussed with them their visa situation and attempts to stay in the country, I thanked god that where I emigrated from, we've joined the European Union and I don't have to deal with these issues. It's a nightmare. You, as a EU national, can look for a job and work here without a permit, you can reside here without a permit, you can stay here after studies or employment, and from legal point of view, you enjoy equal, non-discriminatory treatment with same rights and access to employment, working conditions, social & health security and tax advantages as UK citizens. No, you cannot have the same and "move to any other country in the world which isn't part of the EU as well, so clearly my freedom has nothing to do with the current 4 "freedoms"."

dustinmoris 6y ago
> you wouldn't be able to easily move to the UK if it was not for the freedom of movement Neither you nor I can know this at this point, since I'm already here. > The only reason you were able to _easily_ immigrate to the UK is because of freedom of movement This is factually wrong and is at most your personal opinion. There are many reasons why someone can immigrate _easily_. For example the UK is currently recruiting many doctors and nurses and people of those professions will have it significantly _easier_ to move to the UK than others. > I have numerous friends and people I studied and worked with over the last 12 years in the UK that couldn't stay. I also have numerous friends and people who I worked with and they could stay. So could my family members who also moved to the UK from a non EU country. > Every time I discussed with them their visa situation and attempts to stay in the country, I thanked god that where I emigrated from, we've joined the European Union and I don't have to deal with these issues. This is partly the fault of having no control over EU immigration, forcing richer EU countries to have harsher restriction on non EU countries (this is even more true for other EU countries, the UK is already much friendlier in its immigration laws in comparison to the others in the EU). > You, as a EU national, can look for a job and work here without a permit, you can reside here without a permit, you can stay here after studies or employment, and from legal point of view, you enjoy equal, non-discriminatory treatment with same rights and access to employment, working conditions, social & health security and tax advantages as UK citizens Yes, so my EU passport elevates me above other nationalities. Not exactly something to be proud of in my honest opinion. I rather compete on an even playing field, but maybe that's just me. > No, you cannot have the same and "move to any other country in the world which isn't part of the EU as well, so clearly my freedom has nothing to do with the current 4 "freedoms"." That's just your personal opinion and if I had a desire to move to another non EU country I'd probably prove you wrong. Where there is a will there is a way. I'm certain that I could find a job, get a work permit and build a life elsewhere and eventually naturalise there if I decide to call it my home.
- HatchedLake721 6y ago
  You're mudding the waters and missing the point. If you're on Hacker News, I assume you work in IT. Of course you can find a job in any part of the world. You have one of the most desired and in demand professions in the world. No one argues about that. But being in privileged position like yours and saying 4 freedoms don't benefit _regular people_?! No one cares if you personally are proud or not that EU nationals have equal rights, but these equal rights exist, regardless of what you think or feel, because it's a fact and a law which along with other 3 freedoms have been playing huge role in shaping the European Union. And it benefits everyone of almost 500 million EU nationals today, including whoever you mean by _regular people_. This discussion is about you saying "None of the 4 freedoms of the EU is actually beneficial to regular people". Saying that, you either: 1) Don't know what you're talking about 2) Or you're delusional I will assume you're not delusional, but a logical person, since you're on Hacker News and you can understand rational argument. So please, research what free movement of goods, capital, services and labour actually means and has done for everyone in Europe, including _regular people_. Saying they're not beneficial is nonsense, and means you haven't done your homework.