5 ms·

> When the UK was in the EU it had a much more pro-market, pro-EU expansion agenda. Do you mean an anti-EU-expansion agenda? If so I totally agree: as someone

> When the UK was in the EU it had a much more pro-market, pro-EU expansion agenda. Do you mean an anti-EU-expansion agenda? If so I totally agree: as someone who quite likes the EU but doesn't favour further integration, it was good to have the UK tempering any efforts in that direction.

arethuza 6y ago
It seems that the UK was a very strong advocate for EU expansion until about 2013 or so when our government decided they didn't like East Europeans: https://www.euractiv.com/section/enlargement/news/uk-no-longer-advocates-for-eu-enlargement/ https://www.euractiv.com/section/enlargement/news/uk-no-long... Edit: There was quite ridiculous scare mongering in the UK media at the time about Bulgaria and Romania. No doubt part of the general trend that eventually led to Brexit.
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  Thing is that some candidates for expansion have questionable practices when it comes to democracy. This is why those countries often see the EU in a positive light as it isn't as corrupt as their local gov at least. I don't think current EU leaders really have any long-term plan, they just keep on steering in the same direction. Can be good or bad depending on your perspective.
- fmajid 6y ago
  The UK was in favor of enlargement precisely because it would hinder integration. The best explanation of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37iHSwA1SwE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37iHSwA1SwE
  - lsllc 6y ago
    I knew precisely what this would be before clicking on it! Well done!
- tharne 6y ago
  I don't think it was fear-mongering that led to anti-EU sentiment so much as basic economics. Since most Europeans learn at least some English in school, you have an asymmetry when it comes to jobs. Eastern Europeans can look for jobs in their home countries as well as in Britain. British folks, on the other hand, don't really get any more in the way of job opportunities unless they speak Romanian or Polish. So you have a situation where you have increased competition without increased opportunity.
  - mrtksn 6y ago
    Actually, being native English speaker is always a money making skill by itself. Seriously, having a western look and speaking English are marketable skills. There are people who literally make living out of it. When it comes to Easter Europeans, they need to have the skills to get the job in first place(Polish don't get the jobs because of their Polishness), they must be able to speak some English in addition to one or two languages that they already know and they must have the capital to move to UK(Usually means years of savings). If the British are having hard time to compete with Eastern Europeans they need to look into their education system. The government as the first step in HR will help with reducing the competition but in the same time that means that UK companies will have less options in hiring which is likely to reduce the output. In my opinion, companies should be allowed to hire whoever they want and work visa or nationality is not a skill, just blunt regulatory barrier for voter distribution.
    - lmm 6y ago
      A lot of it was simple cost-of-living arbitrage. A worker sending money home to a family in Poland or especially Bulgaria/Romania can undercut someone who's trying to support the same family at UK prices. On a global scale that may be "fairer", but you can understand why the UK populace would be against it.
      - mrtksn 6y ago
        Of course there's a cost of living arbitrage but that's everywhere. Many people work in London but live out of London, it's a choice you can make and it comes at a cost(travel times) that you may or may not want to take just as the Polish don't see their family for long time. In Turkey there used to be the argument against Women working, they said professional women are making man unemployed or underpaid causing social problems. It's not that different from the argument that Polish employment are causing British social problems. What about doing better job than an immigrant who can barely speak yor language? But no, they banning competition is easier.
paganel 6y ago
There's not that much left to integrate, anyway. There's Montenegro, maybe Albania and North Macedonia next, a big maybe for Serbia (do they still want in?) and Bosnia and a definitely "no chance in hell" for Turkey (even though in the early 2000s it looked like a real possibility). Ukraine is too much of a hot potato to be touched by the EU. I forgot about Moldova, but for better or worse half of its population is already working abroad.
- dmurray 6y ago
  To be clear, I wasn't talking about geographical integration, but further integration of national institutions. E.g. An EU army, a shared EU tax policy...
  - draugadrotten 6y ago
    No doubt, France is pro-EUarmy and pro-EUtax, as long as the army speaks French and the tax goes to French farmers.
    - morsch 6y ago
      France contributes more to the EU budget than it gets out of it, including farming subsidies. With the UK gone, France is/will be the second largest contributor, in absolute terms. The largest beneficiaries, again in absolute terms, are the two countries that pretend to be Euro sceptic, Hungary and Poland. Go figure. Of course that's just the EU budget. The advantage that all countries but particularly France and Germany (and, for another couple of weeks, the UK) get from frictionless trade are enormous. https://m.bpb.de/nachschlagen/zahlen-und-fakten/europa/70580/nettozahler-und-nettoempfaenger https://m.bpb.de/nachschlagen/zahlen-und-fakten/europa/70580...
      - Ericson2314 6y ago
        And don't forget Germany benefits form those countries dragging down the currency too, perhaps more than it does for trade barriers.

arethuza 6y ago

It seems that the UK was a very strong advocate for EU expansion until about 2013 or so when our government decided they didn't like East Europeans: https://www.euractiv.com/section/enlargement/news/uk-no-longer-advocates-for-eu-enlargement/ https://www.euractiv.com/section/enlargement/news/uk-no-long... Edit: There was quite ridiculous scare mongering in the UK media at the time about Bulgaria and Romania. No doubt part of the general trend that eventually led to Brexit.

raxxorrax 6y ago
Thing is that some candidates for expansion have questionable practices when it comes to democracy. This is why those countries often see the EU in a positive light as it isn't as corrupt as their local gov at least. I don't think current EU leaders really have any long-term plan, they just keep on steering in the same direction. Can be good or bad depending on your perspective.
fmajid 6y ago
The UK was in favor of enlargement precisely because it would hinder integration. The best explanation of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37iHSwA1SwE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37iHSwA1SwE
- lsllc 6y ago
  I knew precisely what this would be before clicking on it! Well done!
tharne 6y ago
I don't think it was fear-mongering that led to anti-EU sentiment so much as basic economics. Since most Europeans learn at least some English in school, you have an asymmetry when it comes to jobs. Eastern Europeans can look for jobs in their home countries as well as in Britain. British folks, on the other hand, don't really get any more in the way of job opportunities unless they speak Romanian or Polish. So you have a situation where you have increased competition without increased opportunity.
- mrtksn 6y ago
  Actually, being native English speaker is always a money making skill by itself. Seriously, having a western look and speaking English are marketable skills. There are people who literally make living out of it. When it comes to Easter Europeans, they need to have the skills to get the job in first place(Polish don't get the jobs because of their Polishness), they must be able to speak some English in addition to one or two languages that they already know and they must have the capital to move to UK(Usually means years of savings). If the British are having hard time to compete with Eastern Europeans they need to look into their education system. The government as the first step in HR will help with reducing the competition but in the same time that means that UK companies will have less options in hiring which is likely to reduce the output. In my opinion, companies should be allowed to hire whoever they want and work visa or nationality is not a skill, just blunt regulatory barrier for voter distribution.
  - lmm 6y ago
    A lot of it was simple cost-of-living arbitrage. A worker sending money home to a family in Poland or especially Bulgaria/Romania can undercut someone who's trying to support the same family at UK prices. On a global scale that may be "fairer", but you can understand why the UK populace would be against it.
    - mrtksn 6y ago
      Of course there's a cost of living arbitrage but that's everywhere. Many people work in London but live out of London, it's a choice you can make and it comes at a cost(travel times) that you may or may not want to take just as the Polish don't see their family for long time. In Turkey there used to be the argument against Women working, they said professional women are making man unemployed or underpaid causing social problems. It's not that different from the argument that Polish employment are causing British social problems. What about doing better job than an immigrant who can barely speak yor language? But no, they banning competition is easier.

paganel 6y ago

There's not that much left to integrate, anyway. There's Montenegro, maybe Albania and North Macedonia next, a big maybe for Serbia (do they still want in?) and Bosnia and a definitely "no chance in hell" for Turkey (even though in the early 2000s it looked like a real possibility). Ukraine is too much of a hot potato to be touched by the EU. I forgot about Moldova, but for better or worse half of its population is already working abroad.

dmurray 6y ago
To be clear, I wasn't talking about geographical integration, but further integration of national institutions. E.g. An EU army, a shared EU tax policy...
- draugadrotten 6y ago
  No doubt, France is pro-EUarmy and pro-EUtax, as long as the army speaks French and the tax goes to French farmers.
  - morsch 6y ago
    France contributes more to the EU budget than it gets out of it, including farming subsidies. With the UK gone, France is/will be the second largest contributor, in absolute terms. The largest beneficiaries, again in absolute terms, are the two countries that pretend to be Euro sceptic, Hungary and Poland. Go figure. Of course that's just the EU budget. The advantage that all countries but particularly France and Germany (and, for another couple of weeks, the UK) get from frictionless trade are enormous. https://m.bpb.de/nachschlagen/zahlen-und-fakten/europa/70580/nettozahler-und-nettoempfaenger https://m.bpb.de/nachschlagen/zahlen-und-fakten/europa/70580...
    - Ericson2314 6y ago
      And don't forget Germany benefits form those countries dragging down the currency too, perhaps more than it does for trade barriers.