5 ms·

Why is GNU/Linux still a thing? What’s the GNU bit of Linux?

enriquto 6y ago
Yes, the name is a bit cumbersome. I simply call my operating system "GNU", no need to specify the kernel. Paired with a neat interface (black xterm on a solid black background without panel nor window decorations), people walk confusedly by my computer and ask: what's that wicked system of yours? And I say: "That's the GNU operating system, man!" It never ceases to cause a stir.
- fnord123 6y ago
  You forgot "and everyone clapped".
  - enriquto 6y ago
    I thought the sarcasm was obvious. (actually, my setup is like I described, but nobody notices)
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
david_draco 6y ago
Only almost everything of the programs (ls, grep, bash, gcc, etc). Linux is just the kernel. Stallman lead development of most of the shell environment you use today.
- galkk 6y ago
  Given that the kernel will/could expect to work without the programs, more or less, why it isn't Linux/GNU then. Linux is a kernel, the rest are just a programs.
  - SanderNL 6y ago
    The programs do the useful work, the rest is just the kernel.
  - jcelerier 6y ago
    if you use WSL1 you have all of GNU and zero Linux for instance
    - type0 6y ago
      that's why it should have been called GSW (GNU system for Windows)
      - edgyquant 6y ago
        But the GNU stuff sits on top of WSL which implements(ed) Linux system calls.
- raverbashing 6y ago
  GNU Hurd will be ready any day now
- jhasse 6y ago
  I'm using exa, rg, fish and clang though ;)
ivalm 6y ago
Grep, ls, bash, (g)awk, grub, gcc, make, gzip, tar, time, plotutils, gimp, gnome, emacs and many, many other things
- exciteabletom 6y ago
  I don't want to diminish rms and gnu's work in progressing software freedom and these programs are of course big contributions to a lot of Linux systems. However, I use i3 instead of gnome, systemd isn't a part of gnu, I also use Firefox instead of Epiphany. Should I refer to my system as gnu/i3/systemd/Mozilla/Linux? It's easier to refer to modular systems using the one guaranteed common element, in this case, the kernel. It's not necessary to specify every major user-space program.
  - caspper69 6y ago
    You are correct, it is not necessary to specify every major user-space program. But with GNU/Linux, GNU is the operating system. In fact, there have been Linux distros ported to run on *BSD kernels. It's more like this: the whole OS is GNU (the coreutils), minus the kernel (most of which is device drivers). That's why they do it. Or at least why there are those that are passionate about the naming. Also the reason why, had 4.3BSD not been in legal limbo, we'd all most likely be using GNU/FreeBSD.
    - fsflover 6y ago
      You forgort to mention that the actual reason to call it GNU/Linux is not so much these technical details, but to attract attention to the GNU project and its fight for freedom (while Linux is just "open-source"). Upd: https://www.gnu.org/gnu/why-gnu-linux.html https://www.gnu.org/gnu/why-gnu-linux.html Quote: Granted that the GNU Project deserves credit for this work, is it really worth a fuss when people don't give credit? Isn't the important thing that the job was done, not who did it? You ought to relax, take pride in the job well done, and not worry about the credit. This would be wise advice, if only the situation were like that—if the job were done and it were time to relax. If only that were true! But challenges abound, and this is no time to take the future for granted. Our community's strength rests on commitment to freedom and cooperation. Using the name GNU/Linux is a way for people to remind themselves and inform others of these goals.
bandie91 6y ago
what people call "Linux" is much more "GNU" (system tools, commands, shell, system programms, libraries, stadards, conventions) and less "Linux" (only the kernel).
- fctorial 6y ago
  Linux sounds cooler.
  - saalweachter 6y ago
    Honestly I think this is probably like 90% of the reason Linux won the naming war to describe open-source Unix-like systems. You can tell people your startup's web-servers are running on Linux, a new open-source OS written by a guy named Linus, and the conversation stops there, or you can tell them they're running on the guh-nu, or maybe it's just "nu", OS, and depending on which pronunciation you have chosen either start with a bit of the "Who's on first" routine where you try to explain "no, the name of the OS is new" or dive right into explaining that the answer to the question "Well, if guh-new is not Unix, what is it?" is Unix, and in either case your investors have already decided to pass on your company because you made them feel stupid and not in the way that made them think you were smart.
harry8 6y ago
Glibc which is linked by everything in userspace. Android is Linux but not usually gnu-linux as no glibc. Do any of the major distros use musl or any other libc in a meaningful way?
- enriquto 6y ago
  > Do any of the major distros use musl or any other libc in a meaningful way? I'm playing with voidlinux/musl in a virtual machine and it's pretty neat. Just found a couple of non-posix-isms in my programs thanks to that.
- scaladev 6y ago
  Alpine does, it's heavily used in many container images.
- dastx 6y ago
  Alpine Linux is pretty heavily used in container space. I've been considering using Alpine Linux or Void Linux as my main driver, though I haven't had a chance to investigate if it's a viable option.
  - arp242 6y ago
    I used Void/musl as the daily driver for a while; but I switched to the GNU libc version as I had to run VirtualBox for my (at the time new) job, and that doesn't work with musl libc (or perhaps it does with some workarounds/chroot/whatnot, but I couldn't be bothered). There are some other things that won't work out-of-the-box either; such as the whole Widevine thing, or most Linux games from GOG.com. None of this is musl's fault of course; but in general I found that for me, personally, running Void/musl on the desktop was too much effort with not enough benefit. I'm not a huge fan of GNU's libc, but it does work quite well overall. I do use Alpine on my servers, and haven't had any issues there.
- maxmunzel 6y ago
  Void and Alpine Linux.
elitepleb 6y ago
Only most if not all of the software after you boot the kernel.
- arp242 6y ago
  That's a bit of an exaggeration; Xorg isn't GNU, neither is Firefox, or a lot of other desktop and server applications and programming environments beyond gcc. It also depends heavily on the machine; if you use GNOME then you've got another big chunk of GNU in there, but in my case the only major part that I actually use frequently is GNU libc, a subset of the GNU coreutils (which I'd very much like to replace with something better by the way), and maybe a few others libraries left or right used by some applications. But beyond that it's just occasional stuff (GIMP for example). On my Alpine Linux servers I'm not sure if there's any GNU.
  - danieldk 6y ago
    It also depends heavily on the machine; if you use GNOME then you've got another big chunk of GNU in there, but in my case the only major part that I actually use frequently is GNU libc, a subset of the GNU coreutils (which I'd very much like to replace with something better by the way), and maybe a few others libraries left or right used by some applications. Isn't GNOME independent from GNU nowadays, it has its own foundation?
    - arp242 6y ago
      I'm not sure; it's listed on the GNU website but https://www.gnu.org/software/gnome/ https://www.gnu.org/software/gnome/ redirects to gnome.org, and I can't find GNU mentioned on gnome.org at all. GNOME also has its own infrastructure. So yeah, any relationship between GNOME, GTK, and associated projects seems very weak at best, if it still exists at all.
anticensor 6y ago
GNOME is a commonly used GNU project.
Jaruzel 6y ago
Because GNU/Hurd is a thing. It's coming any day now. ..Ok, I'll get my coat.
sergeykish 6y ago
Linux runs 1 500 000 000 smartphones shipped annually (Android). Linux runs 20 000 000 notebooks shipped annually (Chromebook). BSD is kernel and userspace. GNU is kernel and userspace, but HURD is not ready.

Yes, the name is a bit cumbersome. I simply call my operating system "GNU", no need to specify the kernel. Paired with a neat interface (black xterm on a solid black background without panel nor window decorations), people walk confusedly by my computer and ask: what's that wicked system of yours? And I say: "That's the GNU operating system, man!" It never ceases to cause a stir.

fnord123 6y ago
You forgot "and everyone clapped".
- enriquto 6y ago
  I thought the sarcasm was obvious. (actually, my setup is like I described, but nobody notices)

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

david_draco 6y ago

Only almost everything of the programs (ls, grep, bash, gcc, etc). Linux is just the kernel. Stallman lead development of most of the shell environment you use today.

galkk 6y ago
Given that the kernel will/could expect to work without the programs, more or less, why it isn't Linux/GNU then. Linux is a kernel, the rest are just a programs.
- SanderNL 6y ago
  The programs do the useful work, the rest is just the kernel.
- jcelerier 6y ago
  if you use WSL1 you have all of GNU and zero Linux for instance
  - type0 6y ago
    that's why it should have been called GSW (GNU system for Windows)
    - edgyquant 6y ago
      But the GNU stuff sits on top of WSL which implements(ed) Linux system calls.
raverbashing 6y ago
GNU Hurd will be ready any day now
jhasse 6y ago
I'm using exa, rg, fish and clang though ;)

ivalm 6y ago

Grep, ls, bash, (g)awk, grub, gcc, make, gzip, tar, time, plotutils, gimp, gnome, emacs and many, many other things

exciteabletom 6y ago
I don't want to diminish rms and gnu's work in progressing software freedom and these programs are of course big contributions to a lot of Linux systems. However, I use i3 instead of gnome, systemd isn't a part of gnu, I also use Firefox instead of Epiphany. Should I refer to my system as gnu/i3/systemd/Mozilla/Linux? It's easier to refer to modular systems using the one guaranteed common element, in this case, the kernel. It's not necessary to specify every major user-space program.
- caspper69 6y ago
  You are correct, it is not necessary to specify every major user-space program. But with GNU/Linux, GNU is the operating system. In fact, there have been Linux distros ported to run on *BSD kernels. It's more like this: the whole OS is GNU (the coreutils), minus the kernel (most of which is device drivers). That's why they do it. Or at least why there are those that are passionate about the naming. Also the reason why, had 4.3BSD not been in legal limbo, we'd all most likely be using GNU/FreeBSD.
  - fsflover 6y ago
    You forgort to mention that the actual reason to call it GNU/Linux is not so much these technical details, but to attract attention to the GNU project and its fight for freedom (while Linux is just "open-source"). Upd: https://www.gnu.org/gnu/why-gnu-linux.html https://www.gnu.org/gnu/why-gnu-linux.html Quote: Granted that the GNU Project deserves credit for this work, is it really worth a fuss when people don't give credit? Isn't the important thing that the job was done, not who did it? You ought to relax, take pride in the job well done, and not worry about the credit. This would be wise advice, if only the situation were like that—if the job were done and it were time to relax. If only that were true! But challenges abound, and this is no time to take the future for granted. Our community's strength rests on commitment to freedom and cooperation. Using the name GNU/Linux is a way for people to remind themselves and inform others of these goals.

bandie91 6y ago

what people call "Linux" is much more "GNU" (system tools, commands, shell, system programms, libraries, stadards, conventions) and less "Linux" (only the kernel).

fctorial 6y ago
Linux sounds cooler.
- saalweachter 6y ago
  Honestly I think this is probably like 90% of the reason Linux won the naming war to describe open-source Unix-like systems. You can tell people your startup's web-servers are running on Linux, a new open-source OS written by a guy named Linus, and the conversation stops there, or you can tell them they're running on the guh-nu, or maybe it's just "nu", OS, and depending on which pronunciation you have chosen either start with a bit of the "Who's on first" routine where you try to explain "no, the name of the OS is new" or dive right into explaining that the answer to the question "Well, if guh-new is not Unix, what is it?" is Unix, and in either case your investors have already decided to pass on your company because you made them feel stupid and not in the way that made them think you were smart.

harry8 6y ago

Glibc which is linked by everything in userspace. Android is Linux but not usually gnu-linux as no glibc. Do any of the major distros use musl or any other libc in a meaningful way?

enriquto 6y ago
> Do any of the major distros use musl or any other libc in a meaningful way? I'm playing with voidlinux/musl in a virtual machine and it's pretty neat. Just found a couple of non-posix-isms in my programs thanks to that.
scaladev 6y ago
Alpine does, it's heavily used in many container images.
dastx 6y ago
Alpine Linux is pretty heavily used in container space. I've been considering using Alpine Linux or Void Linux as my main driver, though I haven't had a chance to investigate if it's a viable option.
- arp242 6y ago
  I used Void/musl as the daily driver for a while; but I switched to the GNU libc version as I had to run VirtualBox for my (at the time new) job, and that doesn't work with musl libc (or perhaps it does with some workarounds/chroot/whatnot, but I couldn't be bothered). There are some other things that won't work out-of-the-box either; such as the whole Widevine thing, or most Linux games from GOG.com. None of this is musl's fault of course; but in general I found that for me, personally, running Void/musl on the desktop was too much effort with not enough benefit. I'm not a huge fan of GNU's libc, but it does work quite well overall. I do use Alpine on my servers, and haven't had any issues there.
maxmunzel 6y ago
Void and Alpine Linux.

elitepleb 6y ago

Only most if not all of the software after you boot the kernel.

arp242 6y ago
That's a bit of an exaggeration; Xorg isn't GNU, neither is Firefox, or a lot of other desktop and server applications and programming environments beyond gcc. It also depends heavily on the machine; if you use GNOME then you've got another big chunk of GNU in there, but in my case the only major part that I actually use frequently is GNU libc, a subset of the GNU coreutils (which I'd very much like to replace with something better by the way), and maybe a few others libraries left or right used by some applications. But beyond that it's just occasional stuff (GIMP for example). On my Alpine Linux servers I'm not sure if there's any GNU.
- danieldk 6y ago
  It also depends heavily on the machine; if you use GNOME then you've got another big chunk of GNU in there, but in my case the only major part that I actually use frequently is GNU libc, a subset of the GNU coreutils (which I'd very much like to replace with something better by the way), and maybe a few others libraries left or right used by some applications. Isn't GNOME independent from GNU nowadays, it has its own foundation?
  - arp242 6y ago
    I'm not sure; it's listed on the GNU website but https://www.gnu.org/software/gnome/ https://www.gnu.org/software/gnome/ redirects to gnome.org, and I can't find GNU mentioned on gnome.org at all. GNOME also has its own infrastructure. So yeah, any relationship between GNOME, GTK, and associated projects seems very weak at best, if it still exists at all.

anticensor 6y ago

GNOME is a commonly used GNU project.

Jaruzel 6y ago

Because GNU/Hurd is a thing. It's coming any day now. ..Ok, I'll get my coat.

sergeykish 6y ago

Linux runs 1 500 000 000 smartphones shipped annually (Android). Linux runs 20 000 000 notebooks shipped annually (Chromebook). BSD is kernel and userspace. GNU is kernel and userspace, but HURD is not ready.