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I don’t think you fully understand what having large student loans can mean for a person. Sure not everyone has 100k+ in loans but either way it’s not irrationa

I don’t think you fully understand what having large student loans can mean for a person. Sure not everyone has 100k+ in loans but either way it’s not irrational to be concerned about immediate financial issues as opposed to mass surveillance. Not everyone has a stem degree as a result of their loans and plenty of people with degrees struggle to make ends meet

raxxorrax 6y ago
Is there a mechanism for insolvency for debts this large in the US? I believe I would have skipped higher education if such debt would have been the result. I imagine these policies came from a time where a degree was sure to net you a well paid job. Seems unfitting for todays time especially since the logistical problems of education are irrelevant with modern communication infrastructure.
- _trampeltier 6y ago
  No, there is no insolvency for student debt. In some states you even lose your driving licence if you don't pay.
  - vonmoltke 6y ago
    That's not true. It's hard, but not impossible as many people think: https://www.npr.org/2020/01/22/797330613/myth-busted-turns-out-bankruptcy-can-wipe-out-student-loan-debt-after-all https://www.npr.org/2020/01/22/797330613/myth-busted-turns-o...
- Lammy 6y ago
  It's been a progression to nondischargeability over a few decades. - 1978: Student debt first made nondischargeable, for loans less than five years old at time of filing: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/STATUTE-92/pdf/STATUTE-92-Pg2549.pdf#page=43 https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/STATUTE-92/pdf/STATUTE-9... § 523. Exceptions to discharge (a) A discharge under section 727, 1141, or 1328(b) of this title does not discharge an individual debtor from any debt— (8) to a governmental unit, or a nonprofit institution of higher education, for an educational loan, unless— (A) such loan first became due before five years before the date of the filing of the petition; or (B) excepting such debt from discharge under this paragraph will impose an undue hardship on the debtor and the debtor's dependents; or - 1990: nondischargeability waiting period was later extended to seven years: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/STATUTE-104/pdf/STATUTE-104-Pg4789.pdf#page=176 https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/STATUTE-104/pdf/STATUTE-... § 3621. Section 523(a)(8) of title 11, United States Code, is amended— (1) by striking "for an educational" and all that follows through "unless", and inserting the following: "for an educational benefit overpayment or loan made, insured or guaranteed by a governmental unit, or made under any program funded in whole or in part by a governmental unit or nonprofit institution, or for an obligation to repay funds received as an educational benefit, scholarship or stipend, unless"; end (2) by amending subparagraph (A) to read as follows: "(A) such loan, benefit, scholarship, or stipend overpayment first became due more than 7 years (exclusive of any applicable suspension of the repayment period) before the date of the filing of the petition; or". - 1998: waiting period removed completely, making government-insured student loans nondischargeable: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/PLAW-105publ244/pdf/PLAW-105publ244.pdf#page=257 https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/PLAW-105publ244/pdf/PLAW... § 971. NONDISCHARGEABILITY OF CERTAIN CLAIMS FOR EDUCATIONAL BENEFITS PROVIDED TO OBTAIN HIGHER EDUCATION. (a) AMENDMENT.—Section 523(a)(8) of title 11, United States Code, is amended by striking "unless—" and all that follows through "(B) excepting such debt" and inserting "unless excepting such debt". - 2005: Nondischargeability expanded to include private student loans as well: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/PLAW-109publ8/pdf/PLAW-109publ8.pdf#page=37 https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/PLAW-109publ8/pdf/PLAW-1... § 220. NONDISCHARGEABILITY OF CERTAIN EDUCATIONAL BENEFITS AND LOANS. Section 523(a) of title 11, United States Code, is amended by striking paragraph (8) and inserting the following: "(8) unless excepting such debt from discharge under this paragraph would impose an undue hardship on the debtor and the debtor's dependents, for— "(A)(i) an educational benefit overpayment or loan made, insured, or guaranteed by a governmental unit, or made under any program funded in whole or in part by a governmental unit or nonprofit institution; or "(ii) an obligation to repay funds received as an educational benefit, scholarship, or stipend; or "(B) any other educational loan that is a qualified education loan, as defined in section 221(d)(1) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, incurred by a debtor who is an individual;". - …and, because I was curious what counts as "qualified": https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-2009-title26/pdf/USCODE-2009-title26.pdf#page=820 https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-2009-title26/pdf/... (1) Qualified education loan The term "qualified education loan" means any indebtedness incurred by the taxpayer solely to pay qualified higher education expenses— (A) which are incurred on behalf of the taxpayer, the taxpayer’s spouse, or any dependent of the taxpayer as of the time the indebtedness was incurred, (B) which are paid or incurred within a reasonable period of time before or after the indebtedness is incurred, and (C) which are attributable to education furnished during a period during which the recipient was an eligible student. Such term includes indebtedness used to refinance indebtedness which qualifies as a qualified education loan. The term "qualified education loan" shall not include any indebtedness owed to a person who is related (within the meaning of section 267(b) or 707(b)(1)) to the taxpayer or to any person by reason of a loan under any qualified employer plan (as de-fined in section 72(p)(4)) or under any contract referred to in section 72(p)(5).
  - Lammy 6y ago
    At least that last "shall not include any indebtedness owed to a person who is related to the taxpayer" part is a pretty sweet deal if you: - Have a family - Have a family that have money - Have a family that have money and are willing/able to loan or give you some of it.

raxxorrax 6y ago

Is there a mechanism for insolvency for debts this large in the US? I believe I would have skipped higher education if such debt would have been the result. I imagine these policies came from a time where a degree was sure to net you a well paid job. Seems unfitting for todays time especially since the logistical problems of education are irrelevant with modern communication infrastructure.

_trampeltier 6y ago
No, there is no insolvency for student debt. In some states you even lose your driving licence if you don't pay.
- vonmoltke 6y ago
  That's not true. It's hard, but not impossible as many people think: https://www.npr.org/2020/01/22/797330613/myth-busted-turns-out-bankruptcy-can-wipe-out-student-loan-debt-after-all https://www.npr.org/2020/01/22/797330613/myth-busted-turns-o...
Lammy 6y ago
It's been a progression to nondischargeability over a few decades. - 1978: Student debt first made nondischargeable, for loans less than five years old at time of filing: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/STATUTE-92/pdf/STATUTE-92-Pg2549.pdf#page=43 https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/STATUTE-92/pdf/STATUTE-9... § 523. Exceptions to discharge (a) A discharge under section 727, 1141, or 1328(b) of this title does not discharge an individual debtor from any debt— (8) to a governmental unit, or a nonprofit institution of higher education, for an educational loan, unless— (A) such loan first became due before five years before the date of the filing of the petition; or (B) excepting such debt from discharge under this paragraph will impose an undue hardship on the debtor and the debtor's dependents; or - 1990: nondischargeability waiting period was later extended to seven years: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/STATUTE-104/pdf/STATUTE-104-Pg4789.pdf#page=176 https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/STATUTE-104/pdf/STATUTE-... § 3621. Section 523(a)(8) of title 11, United States Code, is amended— (1) by striking "for an educational" and all that follows through "unless", and inserting the following: "for an educational benefit overpayment or loan made, insured or guaranteed by a governmental unit, or made under any program funded in whole or in part by a governmental unit or nonprofit institution, or for an obligation to repay funds received as an educational benefit, scholarship or stipend, unless"; end (2) by amending subparagraph (A) to read as follows: "(A) such loan, benefit, scholarship, or stipend overpayment first became due more than 7 years (exclusive of any applicable suspension of the repayment period) before the date of the filing of the petition; or". - 1998: waiting period removed completely, making government-insured student loans nondischargeable: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/PLAW-105publ244/pdf/PLAW-105publ244.pdf#page=257 https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/PLAW-105publ244/pdf/PLAW... § 971. NONDISCHARGEABILITY OF CERTAIN CLAIMS FOR EDUCATIONAL BENEFITS PROVIDED TO OBTAIN HIGHER EDUCATION. (a) AMENDMENT.—Section 523(a)(8) of title 11, United States Code, is amended by striking "unless—" and all that follows through "(B) excepting such debt" and inserting "unless excepting such debt". - 2005: Nondischargeability expanded to include private student loans as well: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/PLAW-109publ8/pdf/PLAW-109publ8.pdf#page=37 https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/PLAW-109publ8/pdf/PLAW-1... § 220. NONDISCHARGEABILITY OF CERTAIN EDUCATIONAL BENEFITS AND LOANS. Section 523(a) of title 11, United States Code, is amended by striking paragraph (8) and inserting the following: "(8) unless excepting such debt from discharge under this paragraph would impose an undue hardship on the debtor and the debtor's dependents, for— "(A)(i) an educational benefit overpayment or loan made, insured, or guaranteed by a governmental unit, or made under any program funded in whole or in part by a governmental unit or nonprofit institution; or "(ii) an obligation to repay funds received as an educational benefit, scholarship, or stipend; or "(B) any other educational loan that is a qualified education loan, as defined in section 221(d)(1) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, incurred by a debtor who is an individual;". - …and, because I was curious what counts as "qualified": https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-2009-title26/pdf/USCODE-2009-title26.pdf#page=820 https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-2009-title26/pdf/... (1) Qualified education loan The term "qualified education loan" means any indebtedness incurred by the taxpayer solely to pay qualified higher education expenses— (A) which are incurred on behalf of the taxpayer, the taxpayer’s spouse, or any dependent of the taxpayer as of the time the indebtedness was incurred, (B) which are paid or incurred within a reasonable period of time before or after the indebtedness is incurred, and (C) which are attributable to education furnished during a period during which the recipient was an eligible student. Such term includes indebtedness used to refinance indebtedness which qualifies as a qualified education loan. The term "qualified education loan" shall not include any indebtedness owed to a person who is related (within the meaning of section 267(b) or 707(b)(1)) to the taxpayer or to any person by reason of a loan under any qualified employer plan (as de-fined in section 72(p)(4)) or under any contract referred to in section 72(p)(5).
- Lammy 6y ago
  At least that last "shall not include any indebtedness owed to a person who is related to the taxpayer" part is a pretty sweet deal if you: - Have a family - Have a family that have money - Have a family that have money and are willing/able to loan or give you some of it.