7 ms·

Yeah, this. They're not trying to take over Grado's market, they're trying to sell more stuff to people who have already bought heavily into the Apple ecosystem

Yeah, this. They're not trying to take over Grado's market, they're trying to sell more stuff to people who have already bought heavily into the Apple ecosystem and value comprehensive and simple functionality. For example. I own Sony MX3s. They have decent sound and great ANC but the use is massively frustrating. Swipe controls don't work, the app sucks, pairing with multiple devices is a nightmare. But I keep them for planes, and use my AirPods pro for everything else. If these headphones have sound and ANC at least as good as my MX3s, and in addition have the standard Apple package of features (insta-pairing with multiple devices, tightly integrated with iOS and Siri for effortless feature control, best in class microphones for voice calls, etc. etc., plus looking cool) I'll buy them and give the MX3s away in a heartbeat. (Though... how do they charge? Its not clear anywhere I see...)

robertn702 6y ago
"Simply charge via Lightning connector" source: https://www.apple.com/airpods-max/ https://www.apple.com/airpods-max/
- corobo 6y ago
  wait the old one? Or does this somehow mean USB C in Appleese?
  - jackson1442 6y ago
    Yes, the old one. USB-C is sometimes referred to as Thunderbolt 3 but it's usually kept to USB-C.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - pdpi 6y ago
      USB-C and Thunderbolt 3 are different things. USB-C is a connector defined as part of the USB spec, which was developed in tandem with USB 3.1. TB3 is a different spec, basically an external PCIe interface, that uses the USB-C connector (used to use mini DisplayPort). Typically, TB3 ports are also compatible with USB 3.1, but I don't think that's a requirement.
    - ryanianian 6y ago
      Thunderbolt 3 is a superset of USB-C, although they do use the same connector. It's a mess.
  - tamade 6y ago
    Wait, so they are not even halfway through the transition to USB-C and they launch a new product with the legacy connector? How many cables do they expect us to keep around? I'll wait for AirPod Max S :)
    - JxLS-cpgbe0 6y ago
      One day you might be able to charge your Apple iPhone with your stock Apple Macbook charger cable!
    - floatingatoll 6y ago
      Apple isn't transitioning their handheld lines to USB-C. Their portable lines — laptops, laptop-sized pro tablet — all use USB-C for charging and peripherals compatibility. Their handheld lines — cell phones, earbuds, headphones, TV remotes — all charge with Lightning. (The older end of the Beats product lines use Micro USB due to having been an Android ecosystem product prior to Apple's purchase; however, Beats products released this year seem to be Lightning.) I treat the non-pro iPad as a "handheld" device, and the pro iPad as a "portable" device. There are probably more nuanced words in use at Apple for deciding whether a product gets USB-C or Lightning, but I'm not invested in my choice of words, just in highlighting the distinction between the two categories.
      - corobo 6y ago
        I had no idea this was the case, cheers for the info! I'd just assumed USB C was the new hotness for all things now on
      - tamade 6y ago
        Yet iPad Air 4 is USB-C and arguably "non pro"
  - daxelrod 6y ago
    They mean the 8-pin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_(connector) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_(connector) . It's still used in new Apple products including all iPhones, non-pro iPads, the Apple TV remote, Magic Mouse, Magic Trackpad, and the charging cases for all AirPods.
wcarss 6y ago
but the use is massively frustrating. Swipe controls don't work, the app sucks, pairing with multiple devices is a nightmare. This is a great expression of one of the primary issues facing the software (and technology) industry today: it seems like software is fundamentally just too hard to do right. Basic competency and non-broken operation is regarded as a hugely valuable luxury feature. It's a cornerstone of the luxury technology brand! But... is software really too hard? If so, how does Apple do it, are they just better engineers than the people who work at Sony? Maybe, but that seems unlikely to account for the difference. And of course I don't really know, as I'm just a person on the internet, but I have a hunch: I believe Apple can do better because they have so much vertical integration, i.e. real control over much more of the technology stack in their product. Let's say Sony has some in-house devs, but they hire a team on contract for the app's actual UI. Sony's just going to write the API layer for the UI to talk to. Sony will also make some of the hardware, but they're using a prefab chip and some antenna they bought, and they'll buy some proprietary off-the-shelf firmware for the lowest layer. But, maybe it turns out the antenna and the chip don't play nicely under some key modes of operation. They can't redesign either of them, because they're just buying those parts. They shop around changes, but it would exceed reasonable costs. Maybe the firmware should be able to compensate here, but it's closed-source, and the company that wrote it shut down and sold their properties to someone else that won't turn any request around in under a year. And then, Sony sells the division that was working on the API, and they end up finishing the job out as a contract. This leaves all the API<->UI planning to contractors talking through an intermediary who still works at Sony. So it goes. And we all end up with another expensive piece of crap that just doesn't work. But on Apple's side? I bet way more of it is in-house, and what isn't is locked in on deals that make Apple by far the most important customer. If they need a change, they get it. Apple's teams just... write the software that needs to get written! Maybe they physically meet each other. The firmware gets fixed when it's needed. And Apple ends up with a 'luxury product' built atop "hey look, it actually works!" Is my point that everyone should be like Apple, or SpaceX? It's clear that not every firm can have tight vertical integration. Most have nowhere near the size, power, time, or budget to do this. So my point is that if software and hardware were open by default, at least we could fix the damn things. Sony maybe made some decent hardware there. It need not be shackled to some crayola software joke, if only they (and all of us) weren't so darn proud of our intellectual property that we could never dream of allowing someone to take a wrench to it. Things being closed is so built-in that it's hard to even imagine this: how would we fix the headphone software? We'd probably need (expensive, hard to use) ROM-flashing utility hardware, decompilers, and the ability to load arbitrary code onto Apple devices! Impossible! Well, it's all hard because we want it that way. It's safer, probably. But it boggles the mind.
joking 6y ago
I have some over the ear bose headphones, and the moment I paired a third device (phone, tablet and computer) it starter to frustrate me, as it never got the device i want to use and have to use the app to disconnect from the other device. At least that is something that apple has much better than the competition.
fhood 6y ago
Happy owner of mx4s here. Great work headphones, but man the UX is bad. On top of everything you mention, it defaults to noise cancelling and turning off noise cancelling (I only want noise cancelling for travel, otherwise I like being able to hear) involves listening to a woman tell you what mode you are in while basically muting current audio. WTF SONY
- wlesieutre 6y ago
  And the fact that everyone is getting its name wrong is further evidence that Sony is terrible at naming things. It's a miracle the two new models of PlayStation aren't the PS-1000XM5 and PS-1000XM5D. Same experience as the other commenters with my XM3s, sound great, battery life is great, USB-C charging is great (AirPods Max use Lightning again, thanks Apple), but the touch controls are really bad, using with multiple devices is annoying (XM4 improves the experience with two devices, but will still suck with more, maybe even worse because god knows how you manage which slot gets unpaired when you pair to a third device). > AirPods Max come with a soft, slim Smart Case that puts AirPods Max in an ultralow power state that helps to preserve battery charge when not in use. Let me tell you about power buttons: you hold the button, and then you can keep your battery from dying without having to carry around a special case. AirPods Max are probably really nice, but have enough stupid Apple things on them that I wouldn't be looking at them unless they were the same price as Sony's.
  - wlesieutre 6y ago
    The Lightning charging situation is a really unfortunate signal. I'd seen the Beats Flex announcement a few months ago where they discontinued the Lightning version and made the new ones use USB-C, and figured that meant they were planning to phase out Lightning in favor of USB-C and MagSafe. With these using Lightning instead of USB-C, that's obviously not the case. So now if you've just bought an iPhone 12 and picked up a $40 MagSafe charging cable to go with it, you can go get the Lightning cable back out of the drawer because you're going to need it again for at least the lifespan of these headphones. With the Qi charging case for previous AirPods (the various earbuds versions) they can charge off the same MagSafe cable as the phone (though without a magnetic connection for now). Maybe Apple wanted to put a MagSafe pad on one of the ears for these, but couldn't make the magnets work without interfering with audio quality? At the very least they could have gone USB-C, and then if you had an iPhone 12, AirPods Max, and an Apple Watch, you can charge everything using MagSafe Duo and a USB-C cable, which plugs into either the MagSafe Duo charger (for phone and watch) or directly into the headphones. But no, it's a Lightning port.
Hamuko 6y ago
I agree about the app sucking and multiple device pairing being ass (at least on the XM3s), but I don't really have an issue with the swipe controls.
dayvid 6y ago
I had the MX4s and they were just too uncomfortable. I was getting headaches after prolonged use and my manager couldn’t hear me on a call indoors. I’m seriously considering getting the Airpods Max if they have good Noise cancellation, sound quality and comfort.

robertn702 6y ago

"Simply charge via Lightning connector" source: https://www.apple.com/airpods-max/ https://www.apple.com/airpods-max/

corobo 6y ago
wait the old one? Or does this somehow mean USB C in Appleese?
- jackson1442 6y ago
  Yes, the old one. USB-C is sometimes referred to as Thunderbolt 3 but it's usually kept to USB-C.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - pdpi 6y ago
    USB-C and Thunderbolt 3 are different things. USB-C is a connector defined as part of the USB spec, which was developed in tandem with USB 3.1. TB3 is a different spec, basically an external PCIe interface, that uses the USB-C connector (used to use mini DisplayPort). Typically, TB3 ports are also compatible with USB 3.1, but I don't think that's a requirement.
  - ryanianian 6y ago
    Thunderbolt 3 is a superset of USB-C, although they do use the same connector. It's a mess.
- tamade 6y ago
  Wait, so they are not even halfway through the transition to USB-C and they launch a new product with the legacy connector? How many cables do they expect us to keep around? I'll wait for AirPod Max S :)
  - JxLS-cpgbe0 6y ago
    One day you might be able to charge your Apple iPhone with your stock Apple Macbook charger cable!
  - floatingatoll 6y ago
    Apple isn't transitioning their handheld lines to USB-C. Their portable lines — laptops, laptop-sized pro tablet — all use USB-C for charging and peripherals compatibility. Their handheld lines — cell phones, earbuds, headphones, TV remotes — all charge with Lightning. (The older end of the Beats product lines use Micro USB due to having been an Android ecosystem product prior to Apple's purchase; however, Beats products released this year seem to be Lightning.) I treat the non-pro iPad as a "handheld" device, and the pro iPad as a "portable" device. There are probably more nuanced words in use at Apple for deciding whether a product gets USB-C or Lightning, but I'm not invested in my choice of words, just in highlighting the distinction between the two categories.
    - corobo 6y ago
      I had no idea this was the case, cheers for the info! I'd just assumed USB C was the new hotness for all things now on
    - tamade 6y ago
      Yet iPad Air 4 is USB-C and arguably "non pro"
- daxelrod 6y ago
  They mean the 8-pin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_(connector) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_(connector) . It's still used in new Apple products including all iPhones, non-pro iPads, the Apple TV remote, Magic Mouse, Magic Trackpad, and the charging cases for all AirPods.

wcarss 6y ago

but the use is massively frustrating. Swipe controls don't work, the app sucks, pairing with multiple devices is a nightmare. This is a great expression of one of the primary issues facing the software (and technology) industry today: it seems like software is fundamentally just too hard to do right. Basic competency and non-broken operation is regarded as a hugely valuable luxury feature. It's a cornerstone of the luxury technology brand! But... is software really too hard? If so, how does Apple do it, are they just better engineers than the people who work at Sony? Maybe, but that seems unlikely to account for the difference. And of course I don't really know, as I'm just a person on the internet, but I have a hunch: I believe Apple can do better because they have so much vertical integration, i.e. real control over much more of the technology stack in their product. Let's say Sony has some in-house devs, but they hire a team on contract for the app's actual UI. Sony's just going to write the API layer for the UI to talk to. Sony will also make some of the hardware, but they're using a prefab chip and some antenna they bought, and they'll buy some proprietary off-the-shelf firmware for the lowest layer. But, maybe it turns out the antenna and the chip don't play nicely under some key modes of operation. They can't redesign either of them, because they're just buying those parts. They shop around changes, but it would exceed reasonable costs. Maybe the firmware should be able to compensate here, but it's closed-source, and the company that wrote it shut down and sold their properties to someone else that won't turn any request around in under a year. And then, Sony sells the division that was working on the API, and they end up finishing the job out as a contract. This leaves all the API<->UI planning to contractors talking through an intermediary who still works at Sony. So it goes. And we all end up with another expensive piece of crap that just doesn't work. But on Apple's side? I bet way more of it is in-house, and what isn't is locked in on deals that make Apple by far the most important customer. If they need a change, they get it. Apple's teams just... write the software that needs to get written! Maybe they physically meet each other. The firmware gets fixed when it's needed. And Apple ends up with a 'luxury product' built atop "hey look, it actually works!" Is my point that everyone should be like Apple, or SpaceX? It's clear that not every firm can have tight vertical integration. Most have nowhere near the size, power, time, or budget to do this. So my point is that if software and hardware were open by default, at least we could fix the damn things. Sony maybe made some decent hardware there. It need not be shackled to some crayola software joke, if only they (and all of us) weren't so darn proud of our intellectual property that we could never dream of allowing someone to take a wrench to it. Things being closed is so built-in that it's hard to even imagine this: how would we fix the headphone software? We'd probably need (expensive, hard to use) ROM-flashing utility hardware, decompilers, and the ability to load arbitrary code onto Apple devices! Impossible! Well, it's all hard because we want it that way. It's safer, probably. But it boggles the mind.

joking 6y ago

I have some over the ear bose headphones, and the moment I paired a third device (phone, tablet and computer) it starter to frustrate me, as it never got the device i want to use and have to use the app to disconnect from the other device. At least that is something that apple has much better than the competition.

fhood 6y ago

Happy owner of mx4s here. Great work headphones, but man the UX is bad. On top of everything you mention, it defaults to noise cancelling and turning off noise cancelling (I only want noise cancelling for travel, otherwise I like being able to hear) involves listening to a woman tell you what mode you are in while basically muting current audio. WTF SONY

wlesieutre 6y ago
And the fact that everyone is getting its name wrong is further evidence that Sony is terrible at naming things. It's a miracle the two new models of PlayStation aren't the PS-1000XM5 and PS-1000XM5D. Same experience as the other commenters with my XM3s, sound great, battery life is great, USB-C charging is great (AirPods Max use Lightning again, thanks Apple), but the touch controls are really bad, using with multiple devices is annoying (XM4 improves the experience with two devices, but will still suck with more, maybe even worse because god knows how you manage which slot gets unpaired when you pair to a third device). > AirPods Max come with a soft, slim Smart Case that puts AirPods Max in an ultralow power state that helps to preserve battery charge when not in use. Let me tell you about power buttons: you hold the button, and then you can keep your battery from dying without having to carry around a special case. AirPods Max are probably really nice, but have enough stupid Apple things on them that I wouldn't be looking at them unless they were the same price as Sony's.
- wlesieutre 6y ago
  The Lightning charging situation is a really unfortunate signal. I'd seen the Beats Flex announcement a few months ago where they discontinued the Lightning version and made the new ones use USB-C, and figured that meant they were planning to phase out Lightning in favor of USB-C and MagSafe. With these using Lightning instead of USB-C, that's obviously not the case. So now if you've just bought an iPhone 12 and picked up a $40 MagSafe charging cable to go with it, you can go get the Lightning cable back out of the drawer because you're going to need it again for at least the lifespan of these headphones. With the Qi charging case for previous AirPods (the various earbuds versions) they can charge off the same MagSafe cable as the phone (though without a magnetic connection for now). Maybe Apple wanted to put a MagSafe pad on one of the ears for these, but couldn't make the magnets work without interfering with audio quality? At the very least they could have gone USB-C, and then if you had an iPhone 12, AirPods Max, and an Apple Watch, you can charge everything using MagSafe Duo and a USB-C cable, which plugs into either the MagSafe Duo charger (for phone and watch) or directly into the headphones. But no, it's a Lightning port.

Hamuko 6y ago

I agree about the app sucking and multiple device pairing being ass (at least on the XM3s), but I don't really have an issue with the swipe controls.

dayvid 6y ago

I had the MX4s and they were just too uncomfortable. I was getting headaches after prolonged use and my manager couldn’t hear me on a call indoors. I’m seriously considering getting the Airpods Max if they have good Noise cancellation, sound quality and comfort.