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Heavy metal and Dungeons and Dragons did not actively push far-right extremist content at people. There is absolutely no comparison to be made there.

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
There's no comparison because it's now near-universally recognized that the moral panic on those topics was silly. But many people in the 80s were pretty convinced that heavy metal and fantasy role playing could drive you insane or make you start worshipping demons. It was the subject of Tom Hanks's first movie! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazes_and_Monsters https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazes_and_Monsters)
- user-the-name 6y ago
  Yes, but that was not true. Youtube really does have far-right extremist content on it. It really does drive you towards it. This is something happening in reality.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    It was true in part! Judas Priest has a quite emphatic, criminal-friendly message on the topic of Breaking the Law. The question - in both cases - is whether the very real unsavory messages actually cause people to do terrible things they would have otherwise avoided.
poorpoorstudent 6y ago
Dungeons and Dragons advocates for: * Innate race-specific characteristics [1] steeped in centuries of colonialism * An antiquated notion of intelligence (INT) that neglects other types of intelligence (emotional, linguistic, spatial, etc.) * A strong focus on collecting currency (gold, silver, platinum) and hoarding items that exacerbate wealth inequality * The illusion of a meritocracy where higher level characters have "earned" their rank and enjoy the benefits of easier gameplay * A problematic reference to Adolf Hitler's charisma [2] that was claimed to be misquoted but was still stricken from further editions of the manual The list goes on, but it should be easy to see how D&D can be a gateway to further radicalization and dehumanization. [1] https://www.polygon.com/2020/6/23/21300653/dungeons-dragons-racial-stereotypes-wizards-of-the-coast-drow-orcs-curse-of-strahd https://www.polygon.com/2020/6/23/21300653/dungeons-dragons-... [2] http://www.theescapist.com/basic_gaming_faq.htm#hitler http://www.theescapist.com/basic_gaming_faq.htm#hitler
- user-the-name 6y ago
  D&D has its problems, yes. But it is nothing like Youtube in how strongly it drives radicalisation.
stolenmerch 6y ago
Neither does YouTube, I think that was the comparison. I'm sure you could find all sorts of right-wing, left-wing, Islamic, or other extremist content if you try hard enough. To say YouTube pushes it on people is just not true. If anything, their content moderation policies and algorithms are too strict.
- user-the-name 6y ago
  But it does. It really does, it is well documented that it does.
  - stolenmerch 6y ago
    I know a few journalists really want to push this narrative, but I think the more it's been carefully studied, the more it's been debunked. E.g: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1912.11211.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/1912.11211.pdf "After conducting a detailed analysis of recommendations received by each channel type, we refute the popular radicalization claims. To the contrary, these data suggest that YouTubes recommendation algorithm actively discourages viewers from visiting radicalizing or extremist content. Instead, the algorithm is shown to favor mainstream media and cable news content over independent YouTube channels with slant towards left-leaning or politically neutral channels."
rimiform 6y ago
Actively? It sounds like you're erroneously attributing some sinister 'purpose' to the algorithm. The YT recommendation algorithm doesn't have any preference for what it sends you to, only that you keep coming back. The music industry might do something similar (simpler, poppier tunes), but it's far, far slower than YouTube, so you can accumulate less 'radicalisation' on aggregate.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  But I think that's the point. Because Youtube has such a fast feedback loop, they have a special responsibility to avoid over-optimizing on getting you to watch the next video.
- user-the-name 6y ago
  Actively, as in, it is pushing you towards this content. You do not have to seek it out specifically, the algorithm will steer you towards it.
  - rimiform 6y ago
    Ah, okay. Sure, that's what any recommendation system will do. But it's not like how Netflix 'actively' (might not be the best word to use, then) steers you towards Netflix originals because Netflix prefers you watching those. That's what I thought you meant, but it looks like I was mistaken.
    - user-the-name 6y ago
      At some point the decision to not act on a problem becomes an active choice in favour of the problem, though.

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago

There's no comparison because it's now near-universally recognized that the moral panic on those topics was silly. But many people in the 80s were pretty convinced that heavy metal and fantasy role playing could drive you insane or make you start worshipping demons. It was the subject of Tom Hanks's first movie! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazes_and_Monsters https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazes_and_Monsters)

user-the-name 6y ago
Yes, but that was not true. Youtube really does have far-right extremist content on it. It really does drive you towards it. This is something happening in reality.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  It was true in part! Judas Priest has a quite emphatic, criminal-friendly message on the topic of Breaking the Law. The question - in both cases - is whether the very real unsavory messages actually cause people to do terrible things they would have otherwise avoided.

poorpoorstudent 6y ago

Dungeons and Dragons advocates for: * Innate race-specific characteristics [1] steeped in centuries of colonialism * An antiquated notion of intelligence (INT) that neglects other types of intelligence (emotional, linguistic, spatial, etc.) * A strong focus on collecting currency (gold, silver, platinum) and hoarding items that exacerbate wealth inequality * The illusion of a meritocracy where higher level characters have "earned" their rank and enjoy the benefits of easier gameplay * A problematic reference to Adolf Hitler's charisma [2] that was claimed to be misquoted but was still stricken from further editions of the manual The list goes on, but it should be easy to see how D&D can be a gateway to further radicalization and dehumanization. [1] https://www.polygon.com/2020/6/23/21300653/dungeons-dragons-racial-stereotypes-wizards-of-the-coast-drow-orcs-curse-of-strahd https://www.polygon.com/2020/6/23/21300653/dungeons-dragons-... [2] http://www.theescapist.com/basic_gaming_faq.htm#hitler http://www.theescapist.com/basic_gaming_faq.htm#hitler

user-the-name 6y ago
D&D has its problems, yes. But it is nothing like Youtube in how strongly it drives radicalisation.

stolenmerch 6y ago

Neither does YouTube, I think that was the comparison. I'm sure you could find all sorts of right-wing, left-wing, Islamic, or other extremist content if you try hard enough. To say YouTube pushes it on people is just not true. If anything, their content moderation policies and algorithms are too strict.

user-the-name 6y ago
But it does. It really does, it is well documented that it does.
- stolenmerch 6y ago
  I know a few journalists really want to push this narrative, but I think the more it's been carefully studied, the more it's been debunked. E.g: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1912.11211.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/1912.11211.pdf "After conducting a detailed analysis of recommendations received by each channel type, we refute the popular radicalization claims. To the contrary, these data suggest that YouTubes recommendation algorithm actively discourages viewers from visiting radicalizing or extremist content. Instead, the algorithm is shown to favor mainstream media and cable news content over independent YouTube channels with slant towards left-leaning or politically neutral channels."

rimiform 6y ago

Actively? It sounds like you're erroneously attributing some sinister 'purpose' to the algorithm. The YT recommendation algorithm doesn't have any preference for what it sends you to, only that you keep coming back. The music industry might do something similar (simpler, poppier tunes), but it's far, far slower than YouTube, so you can accumulate less 'radicalisation' on aggregate.

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
But I think that's the point. Because Youtube has such a fast feedback loop, they have a special responsibility to avoid over-optimizing on getting you to watch the next video.
user-the-name 6y ago
Actively, as in, it is pushing you towards this content. You do not have to seek it out specifically, the algorithm will steer you towards it.
- rimiform 6y ago
  Ah, okay. Sure, that's what any recommendation system will do. But it's not like how Netflix 'actively' (might not be the best word to use, then) steers you towards Netflix originals because Netflix prefers you watching those. That's what I thought you meant, but it looks like I was mistaken.
  - user-the-name 6y ago
    At some point the decision to not act on a problem becomes an active choice in favour of the problem, though.