5 ms·

>Break the rules. Officials may try to deter you from using passages, ladders or stairwells. Ignore them. If you need to kick open a door or pick a lock, do it.

>Break the rules. Officials may try to deter you from using passages, ladders or stairwells. Ignore them. If you need to kick open a door or pick a lock, do it. I learned this lesson on 9/11, as a high school student in lower Manhattan. We were told to sit in our homerooms and wait, while smoke (and god knows what else) enveloped the building. Eventually we were shuffled out of the building and told to keep going north, left entirely to our own devices. I completely understand their reaction, but that doesn’t make it a good one. The authorities don’t necessarily know any more than you do. Their interest in maintaining order is not necessarily aligned with your interest in your own safety. When the shit hits the fan, don’t wait for permission to protect yourself. [obviously this is situational. I’m not advocating climbing over others to be first out the plane or etc]

forgotmypw17 6y ago
Someone I knows knows someone who worked in the second WTC building to be hit. After the first strike, their employer's plan was for everyone to stay in place, but they got the heck out of there. Saved their life.
- mrslave 6y ago
  I saw a man interviewed on TV who was in a very similar situation. He just figured to get out even though there was no real understanding of what had happened to the first tower or knowledge of a threat to the second. The manager gave stay put and calm instructions while we wait for more information, and he just thought to leave via the fire escape stairwell and take the rest of the day off. Amazing.
orev 6y ago
In a situation like that, you only have a choice between really bad options. If everyone ran for the door, people would likely have been hurt or killed due to trampling. If everyone panics, you are guaranteed to have a bad outcome. In your case, staying in place might have allowed the dust to (literally) settle by the time you left the building. Obviously the people in the 2nd tower had a different outcome.
- smogcutter 6y ago
  Like I said, I understand why they did what they did. That doesn’t make it the right call. The point is that they didn’t know what to do, so they defaulted to doing nothing. > In your case, staying in place might have allowed the dust to (literally) settle by the time you left the building. It didn’t.
  - jabl 6y ago
    Sure, there are high-profile cases like 9/11 or the (discussed yesterday(?) on HN) Grenfell Towers fire where getting the hell out ASAP is your best option. But the usual instructions by the authorities for a fire in a high-rise is the correct action in the vast majority of cases. That is, close doors and windows, put some damp clothes under the door, stay put and wait for the fire department. Correctly designed and built high-rises are pretty well compartmentalized, and the probability of you succumbing to the heat and noxious fumes in the stairwell if you try to escape, is a lot higher than the probability that the fire department is not able to quickly bring the fire under control.
- willyt 6y ago
  Yes. The worst civilian loss of life in Britain in WW2 was a crush that occurred at Bethnal Green station on a stairway down to an air raid shelter. A woman tripped and fell on the stair and people above carried on pushing to get down and the bodies piled up. 173 people died. There wasn’t even a stampede. I think that’s why we have the shelter in place rule for fires in the U.K. In more modern buildings there is a staged evacuation which is done automatically by the fire alarm system where it sets off alarms to evacuate the fire floor, then the floor above, then floor below then all the floors above the fire at intervals followed by all the floors below. In an office block with 5000 people in it you wouldn’t need much to recreate the Bethnal Green disaster no matter how much stair capacity you have. In Grenfel the staged evacuation was meant to be done manually by the fire brigade as it was a 1960’s building with no whole building alarm system but for some reason this happened too slowly. Possibly because the escape stair was not pressurised as would be required by modern regulations and the smoke seals on fire doors had been compromised during the refit and smoke got into the stair so the fire brigade felt they needed BA to evacuate people safely from the stairs, I’m not sure. So if everyone in the ship or the building or plane or whatever acts entirely in their own interests in almost all situations it ends up worse for everyone, but there has to be some leadership somewhere and the systems need to be checked and practiced regularly.
tdeck 6y ago
As an extreme example I'm reminded of this south korean ferry disaster where 304 passengers died: > As Sewol began sinking, the ferry's intercom system started ordering the passengers to stay put, alleging that moving was dangerous. The announcements were made by a communication officer, Kang Hae-seong, who had not consulted the manual before the broadcast. The announcements began broadcasting by at least 8:52 a.m. and continued even when water began flooding passenger compartments. Other crew members corroborated this order, instructing passengers to stay put. Captain Lee also instructed passengers to stay put and did not change the order even as he was leaving the ship. > The first emergency call was made by Choi Duk-ha, a Danwon High School student aboard the ferry. At 8:52 a.m., he called the national emergency service number and reported to the Jeollanam-do fire station that Sewol was capsizing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_MV_Sewol?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_MV_Sewol?wprov=sfla...
- dmitriid 6y ago
  It's a well-known issue in some countries: authorities are never questioned even if the decisions are obviously wrong. For Korea, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Cargo_Flight_8509#Investigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Cargo_Flight_8509#I...
  - camillomiller 6y ago
    Which might also explain why they beat Covid faster and more effectively, on the other hand.
    - Kiro 6y ago
      They haven't beaten Covid. Their current curve is quickly approaching the spring numbers, expected to hit the February peak next week. https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/12/07/943812120/south-koreas-health-minister-describes-seoul-as-a-covid-19-war-zone?t=1607421588613 https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/1...
      - 6y ago
spicyramen 6y ago
Having lived in Mexico City in the 80s till 2000s, there is 3 simple rules during earthquakes: don't run, don't yell, don't push. When you feel a strong one, the fourth rule is don't follow the first three and save your life. That saved mine in 1985
- spideymans 6y ago
  Why the rule against yelling?
  - nixass 6y ago
    Spreading panic perhaps? Panic is not helping in situation like that. Never felt major earthquake but that's what I'd hate.
  - Aeolun 6y ago
    Because it’s annoying if everyone starts yelling for minor earthquakes?
yread 6y ago
Related story https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Rescorla#September_11,_2001 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Rescorla#September_11,_20...
hef19898 6y ago
That's the tricky part. Official safety rules are there for a reason, that is because by the best knowledge they work. 9/11 was special because nobody expected the towers to go down. The Sewol was man-made disaster. In most other cases, following orders as a passenger and official safety rules will safe your life. It will also maximize the number of lives saved. And even if authorities don't necessarily know more than you, they do have the necessary training and procedures. Something simple bystanders don't have.
- hrktb 6y ago
  My take on parent's comment that the people in charge had no more clue what they were doing than the rest of the group. It's an issue solved by training on both parts (evacuation leaders and evacuating people), and also why fire drill need to be taken seriously, or at least be an occasion to thinking hard about the building we're in, the exits, and how it looks like when everyone is following that path. Even in unforseen situations, that's where we all end up anyway.
- ocdtrekkie 6y ago
  > 9/11 was special because nobody expected the towers to go down. Even so, universally, the safest choice in a disaster is to not be where the disaster is ASAP. Similarly, in a mass shooting, "run away" is the first piece of advice. Hiding or fighting is only when that option isn't available.
  - hef19898 6y ago
    The safest choice would be to stay put and wait for help. Always. Unless staying put is no option due to a clear and immenant threat. Because running away in case of an active shootin might put you in someones line of fire. Running down the stairs in a burning building might expose you to smoke and fumes. Or even fire, in case you do not know if you are above or below the fire. Or it might block emergency personel from reaching others needing help or from reaching the, e.g. fire. That being said, I think there was a discussion regarding the evacuation of burning skyscrapers after 9/11.
gadders 6y ago
There was also Grenfell Tower in the UK, where the fire brigade told everyone to stay in their flats (apartments) as the building caught fire around them: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/10/16/london-fire-chief-admits-stay-put-advice-not-suitable-grenfell/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/10/16/london-fire-chie...
stronglikedan 6y ago
> The authorities don’t necessarily know any more than you do. In your example, no, but in the plane example, you bet your sweet bippy they do. As you said, situational.

forgotmypw17 6y ago

Someone I knows knows someone who worked in the second WTC building to be hit. After the first strike, their employer's plan was for everyone to stay in place, but they got the heck out of there. Saved their life.

mrslave 6y ago
I saw a man interviewed on TV who was in a very similar situation. He just figured to get out even though there was no real understanding of what had happened to the first tower or knowledge of a threat to the second. The manager gave stay put and calm instructions while we wait for more information, and he just thought to leave via the fire escape stairwell and take the rest of the day off. Amazing.

orev 6y ago

In a situation like that, you only have a choice between really bad options. If everyone ran for the door, people would likely have been hurt or killed due to trampling. If everyone panics, you are guaranteed to have a bad outcome. In your case, staying in place might have allowed the dust to (literally) settle by the time you left the building. Obviously the people in the 2nd tower had a different outcome.

smogcutter 6y ago
Like I said, I understand why they did what they did. That doesn’t make it the right call. The point is that they didn’t know what to do, so they defaulted to doing nothing. > In your case, staying in place might have allowed the dust to (literally) settle by the time you left the building. It didn’t.
- jabl 6y ago
  Sure, there are high-profile cases like 9/11 or the (discussed yesterday(?) on HN) Grenfell Towers fire where getting the hell out ASAP is your best option. But the usual instructions by the authorities for a fire in a high-rise is the correct action in the vast majority of cases. That is, close doors and windows, put some damp clothes under the door, stay put and wait for the fire department. Correctly designed and built high-rises are pretty well compartmentalized, and the probability of you succumbing to the heat and noxious fumes in the stairwell if you try to escape, is a lot higher than the probability that the fire department is not able to quickly bring the fire under control.
willyt 6y ago
Yes. The worst civilian loss of life in Britain in WW2 was a crush that occurred at Bethnal Green station on a stairway down to an air raid shelter. A woman tripped and fell on the stair and people above carried on pushing to get down and the bodies piled up. 173 people died. There wasn’t even a stampede. I think that’s why we have the shelter in place rule for fires in the U.K. In more modern buildings there is a staged evacuation which is done automatically by the fire alarm system where it sets off alarms to evacuate the fire floor, then the floor above, then floor below then all the floors above the fire at intervals followed by all the floors below. In an office block with 5000 people in it you wouldn’t need much to recreate the Bethnal Green disaster no matter how much stair capacity you have. In Grenfel the staged evacuation was meant to be done manually by the fire brigade as it was a 1960’s building with no whole building alarm system but for some reason this happened too slowly. Possibly because the escape stair was not pressurised as would be required by modern regulations and the smoke seals on fire doors had been compromised during the refit and smoke got into the stair so the fire brigade felt they needed BA to evacuate people safely from the stairs, I’m not sure. So if everyone in the ship or the building or plane or whatever acts entirely in their own interests in almost all situations it ends up worse for everyone, but there has to be some leadership somewhere and the systems need to be checked and practiced regularly.

tdeck 6y ago

As an extreme example I'm reminded of this south korean ferry disaster where 304 passengers died: > As Sewol began sinking, the ferry's intercom system started ordering the passengers to stay put, alleging that moving was dangerous. The announcements were made by a communication officer, Kang Hae-seong, who had not consulted the manual before the broadcast. The announcements began broadcasting by at least 8:52 a.m. and continued even when water began flooding passenger compartments. Other crew members corroborated this order, instructing passengers to stay put. Captain Lee also instructed passengers to stay put and did not change the order even as he was leaving the ship. > The first emergency call was made by Choi Duk-ha, a Danwon High School student aboard the ferry. At 8:52 a.m., he called the national emergency service number and reported to the Jeollanam-do fire station that Sewol was capsizing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_MV_Sewol?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_MV_Sewol?wprov=sfla...

dmitriid 6y ago
It's a well-known issue in some countries: authorities are never questioned even if the decisions are obviously wrong. For Korea, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Cargo_Flight_8509#Investigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Cargo_Flight_8509#I...
- camillomiller 6y ago
  Which might also explain why they beat Covid faster and more effectively, on the other hand.
  - Kiro 6y ago
    They haven't beaten Covid. Their current curve is quickly approaching the spring numbers, expected to hit the February peak next week. https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/12/07/943812120/south-koreas-health-minister-describes-seoul-as-a-covid-19-war-zone?t=1607421588613 https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/1...
    - 6y ago

spicyramen 6y ago

Having lived in Mexico City in the 80s till 2000s, there is 3 simple rules during earthquakes: don't run, don't yell, don't push. When you feel a strong one, the fourth rule is don't follow the first three and save your life. That saved mine in 1985

spideymans 6y ago
Why the rule against yelling?
- nixass 6y ago
  Spreading panic perhaps? Panic is not helping in situation like that. Never felt major earthquake but that's what I'd hate.
- Aeolun 6y ago
  Because it’s annoying if everyone starts yelling for minor earthquakes?

yread 6y ago

Related story https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Rescorla#September_11,_2001 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Rescorla#September_11,_20...

hef19898 6y ago

That's the tricky part. Official safety rules are there for a reason, that is because by the best knowledge they work. 9/11 was special because nobody expected the towers to go down. The Sewol was man-made disaster. In most other cases, following orders as a passenger and official safety rules will safe your life. It will also maximize the number of lives saved. And even if authorities don't necessarily know more than you, they do have the necessary training and procedures. Something simple bystanders don't have.

hrktb 6y ago
My take on parent's comment that the people in charge had no more clue what they were doing than the rest of the group. It's an issue solved by training on both parts (evacuation leaders and evacuating people), and also why fire drill need to be taken seriously, or at least be an occasion to thinking hard about the building we're in, the exits, and how it looks like when everyone is following that path. Even in unforseen situations, that's where we all end up anyway.
ocdtrekkie 6y ago
> 9/11 was special because nobody expected the towers to go down. Even so, universally, the safest choice in a disaster is to not be where the disaster is ASAP. Similarly, in a mass shooting, "run away" is the first piece of advice. Hiding or fighting is only when that option isn't available.
- hef19898 6y ago
  The safest choice would be to stay put and wait for help. Always. Unless staying put is no option due to a clear and immenant threat. Because running away in case of an active shootin might put you in someones line of fire. Running down the stairs in a burning building might expose you to smoke and fumes. Or even fire, in case you do not know if you are above or below the fire. Or it might block emergency personel from reaching others needing help or from reaching the, e.g. fire. That being said, I think there was a discussion regarding the evacuation of burning skyscrapers after 9/11.

gadders 6y ago

There was also Grenfell Tower in the UK, where the fire brigade told everyone to stay in their flats (apartments) as the building caught fire around them: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/10/16/london-fire-chief-admits-stay-put-advice-not-suitable-grenfell/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/10/16/london-fire-chie...

stronglikedan 6y ago

> The authorities don’t necessarily know any more than you do. In your example, no, but in the plane example, you bet your sweet bippy they do. As you said, situational.