11 ms·

How does Stadia strike you as an alternative? It works on anything (AFAIK) that runs Chrome.

eitland 6y ago
Not OP but anything that mentions Chrome is an instant loud no for me these days if I can avoid it somehow. Just like MS 15 years ago.
- izacus 6y ago
  It's not Chrome specific though.
  - camel_Snake 6y ago
    afaik Stadia is chrome specific. try visiting http://stadia.google.com/ http://stadia.google.com/ on another browser. I can't even login and view my previous screenshots, let alone play a game.
    - aaomidi 6y ago
      Most every cloud gaming is Chrome specific. Heck the Amazon cloud gaming doesn't even work on Chrome on Linux....
    - izacus 6y ago
      You're right, I only checked with Edge forgetting that is just Chrome too.
    - Skylled 6y ago
      For what little it's worth, Stadia is opening to play through Safari (on iOS) soon.
akhosravian 6y ago
Not op, but I think the biggest miss in cloud gaming is no one developing cloud first multiplayer games. Currently in any kind of client-server multiplayer game out there you face n+1 game states (n is the number of players) and a lot of the art is in how to reconcile these. The n+1 is due to most games implementing some degree of client autonomy (e.g. in movement), and the reality of network round trips from each client causing everyone to be slightly out of sync. A concrete example of how this affects players is the experience of being shot after narrowly escaping behind cover in an FPS. Cloud gaming substitutes reconciling these n+1 simulations with some input latency for each player. I think this could produce some qualitatively better experiences for certain games. In particular, Fall Guys is a recent game that I think would play better as a cloud first experience. The interaction between players in Fall Guys is grabbing other players who are near to you. Due to the network latency many players have the experience of being grabbed by folks nowhere near them. A cloud first version of the game would eliminate this problem that simply can’t be solved otherwise.
- LegitShady 6y ago
  How is this functionally different than any other game server dealing with player game states? Players would get even more warping and inexplicable behaviour as their state differed from the server state. You would just as likely get the same warping in Among Us as the game arbitrates the various players' states.
  - Inityx 6y ago
    The conceit here is that rendering happens server-side, so visible game-state latency is replaced by input latency.
    - ColFrancis 6y ago
      Many RTS games have already done this in a traditional client rendered setup with deterministic lockstep (e.g. [1]). The basic idea is to have an input at time t which has a fixed delay until t + x. During [t, t+x] everyone syncs what actions they will take, and so everyone renders the exact same state. Of course, if this sync fails then the game will stutter for everyone, unlike in the stadia case, and it has pros and cons for various types of game. It was largely rejected for action games in the past. The trick is you need to specify the minimum latency that everyone must get under for it to run smooth. In the server-rendering case you would be locked to the renderer's region and would have people with better internet having a strong advantage. If you're interesting in this sort of thing, check out [2] which goes into depth on how to synchronise game simulations in a bunch of different ways. [1] https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131503/1500_archers_on_a_288_network_.php https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131503/1500_archers_o... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9X4lysFr64 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9X4lysFr64
- muststopmyths 6y ago
  The MMO programmer in me fantasizes about making yet another MAG-like (ps3-era shooter with upto 128 players) game. That kind of thing would be so much cleaner to do on a completely server-side platform. However, a large game like that would need a large budget to back it. Without Stadia being more popular I don't see anyone throwing all their eggs in that basket. Because it could only run on Stadia and nowhere else. One way to mitigate risk would have been to build for both Luna (Amazon) and Stadia. But neither are very popular, and one is Windows-only while the other is Linux-only. So my risk would actually double, not mitigate since I have to develop for two platforms. I'm ignoring xCloud since it's just a bunch of Xboxes and no thanks. For smaller, mid-size/indie studios which are not building a massively multiplayer game, I just don't see the up side of making a Stadia-only game. They wouldn't be trivially portable to other platforms and players have learnt to live with network latencies. So, unless a Google-owned studio does it, I don't see truly cloud-first multiplayer game happening. Assuming that's what you meant by "cloud first". OTOH Ubisoft does ship their games on Stadia and I'd be curious to know if the experience in, for example, The Division 2 is any better. Even if the game doesn't scale the number of players in an instance, they should still get some benefit of being on Stadia. It doesn't seem to be a very popular mode in the game's subreddit though.
aaomidi 6y ago
Cloud gaming is just not really good enough for me for fast paced games. I've tried GeForce Now, Stadia, and Shadow. So far GFN is my favorite and Shadow is my least favorite but tbf I'm not in the proper region for Shadow.
- fishtacos 6y ago
  Haven't tried Stadia, but I can certainly vouch for GFN. The lag is comparable to consoles on TV (and in some games, better), so while it would be a handicap in PC-centric fast-paced games, I was damn impressed with it. If I had a reason to pay the $5/month premium for unlimited gameplay away from home, I certainly would.
randmeerkat 6y ago
I tried GeForce Now with a high speed internet connection (Comcast) with Counter-Strike and I found the game to be unplayable from the lag. I double checked my speed test and router settings, it should’ve been fine. Ultimately I believe these services represent the future of gaming, but without net neutrality or alternative ISPs it’s going to be awhile before that future is realized.
- filleokus 6y ago
  Did you use wifi or wired ethernet? I have a super stable 1 Gb/s fiber connection with like 5-7 ms to a close by AWS data center where I ran Parsec on a VM. I got ≈ 400 Mb/s to the VM, with < 10 ms ping over my 5 Ghz wifi. But I could still never get a stable setup. As soon as I went wired everything worked great. I think jitter is a big problem. With a wired setup I could also move to further away DC's (like 20 ms) without any issue.
  - randmeerkat 6y ago
    It was wifi, my connection speed with speedtest over wifi was 100Mb down and 30Mb up. I should probably note I was also sitting next to my wifi router, so I’m not sure that a wired connection would’ve made a noticeable difference.
    - nitrogen 6y ago
      Even right next to the antenna, wires will have less latency and packet loss than wireless.
      - randmeerkat 6y ago
        Sure but it shouldn’t be noticeable. For example, I can play Counter-Strike on my computer itself just fine over wireless without the latency issues.
        filleokus 6y ago
Ericson2314 6y ago
PC gaming is like the last bastion of quasi-mainstream general compute at home, so I seriously hope it doesn't go away.
- hombre_fatal 6y ago
  I never bought another game on my girlfriend's console after considering the fact that I have games in my Steam library that I bought 10+ years ago while the $60 game I buy on her console just lasts until the hardware breaks and they shut down the eShop. That's such a bad deal I'm surprised that I ever made it. Aside, I wonder how much the jumbo-sized ATX / tower PC case market has sold consoles by making people think they have to pick between a stupidly big server-sized PC tower vs. a cute little console that fits under the TV. I think the ATX/tower form-factor has played a nontrivial hand in preventing culture of having a small but powerful PC at the center of the home entertainment system. The small-form factor trend is finally picking up steam (https://old.reddit.com/r/sffpc/ https://old.reddit.com/r/sffpc/) and it amazes me that this isn't yet the standard.
  - Yizahi 6y ago
    SFFPC is still too much hassle for an average builder, plus "ITX tax" is not very attractive too. I have built my first SFF last winter and I had to read that sub for a long time to find out all compatibility issues, and even then I ran into incompatible cooler mount and MB, I had to use a bit of force to set CPU cooler on a crooked mount. And latest trend of AIB GPU manufacturers to abandon 2-slot format is also not good for SFF. Another issue are thermals. I can find out that my SSD is overheating to 105* in the nice looking ITX case and mitigate that a little (I have to hope now that 82-83* on a working SSD won't kill it too fast). Average user will see this by a blue smoke coming out of the case :) I wish there was more initiative from big manufacturers in that area.
Darmody 6y ago
Not OP. I can't wait to see Google dump Stadia.
- google234123 6y ago
  Curious why you care about this?
  - Darmody 6y ago
    I don't like the concept of not owning anything anymore. I don't like paying subscriptions for everything to big companies. It's detrimental to consumers.
    - google234123 6y ago
      So why aren't you complaining about Steam then? At least that's somewhat tangentially related to this article.
idiot900 6y ago
Stadia is really sensitive to lag. In my urban home, with a reliable high-speed broadband connection, it works pretty well when physically connected by Ethernet, but the stuttering is intolerable on wifi.

Not OP but anything that mentions Chrome is an instant loud no for me these days if I can avoid it somehow. Just like MS 15 years ago.

izacus 6y ago
It's not Chrome specific though.
- camel_Snake 6y ago
  afaik Stadia is chrome specific. try visiting http://stadia.google.com/ http://stadia.google.com/ on another browser. I can't even login and view my previous screenshots, let alone play a game.
  - aaomidi 6y ago
    Most every cloud gaming is Chrome specific. Heck the Amazon cloud gaming doesn't even work on Chrome on Linux....
  - izacus 6y ago
    You're right, I only checked with Edge forgetting that is just Chrome too.
  - Skylled 6y ago
    For what little it's worth, Stadia is opening to play through Safari (on iOS) soon.

akhosravian 6y ago

Not op, but I think the biggest miss in cloud gaming is no one developing cloud first multiplayer games. Currently in any kind of client-server multiplayer game out there you face n+1 game states (n is the number of players) and a lot of the art is in how to reconcile these. The n+1 is due to most games implementing some degree of client autonomy (e.g. in movement), and the reality of network round trips from each client causing everyone to be slightly out of sync. A concrete example of how this affects players is the experience of being shot after narrowly escaping behind cover in an FPS. Cloud gaming substitutes reconciling these n+1 simulations with some input latency for each player. I think this could produce some qualitatively better experiences for certain games. In particular, Fall Guys is a recent game that I think would play better as a cloud first experience. The interaction between players in Fall Guys is grabbing other players who are near to you. Due to the network latency many players have the experience of being grabbed by folks nowhere near them. A cloud first version of the game would eliminate this problem that simply can’t be solved otherwise.

LegitShady 6y ago
How is this functionally different than any other game server dealing with player game states? Players would get even more warping and inexplicable behaviour as their state differed from the server state. You would just as likely get the same warping in Among Us as the game arbitrates the various players' states.
- Inityx 6y ago
  The conceit here is that rendering happens server-side, so visible game-state latency is replaced by input latency.
  - ColFrancis 6y ago
    Many RTS games have already done this in a traditional client rendered setup with deterministic lockstep (e.g. [1]). The basic idea is to have an input at time t which has a fixed delay until t + x. During [t, t+x] everyone syncs what actions they will take, and so everyone renders the exact same state. Of course, if this sync fails then the game will stutter for everyone, unlike in the stadia case, and it has pros and cons for various types of game. It was largely rejected for action games in the past. The trick is you need to specify the minimum latency that everyone must get under for it to run smooth. In the server-rendering case you would be locked to the renderer's region and would have people with better internet having a strong advantage. If you're interesting in this sort of thing, check out [2] which goes into depth on how to synchronise game simulations in a bunch of different ways. [1] https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131503/1500_archers_on_a_288_network_.php https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131503/1500_archers_o... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9X4lysFr64 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9X4lysFr64
muststopmyths 6y ago
The MMO programmer in me fantasizes about making yet another MAG-like (ps3-era shooter with upto 128 players) game. That kind of thing would be so much cleaner to do on a completely server-side platform. However, a large game like that would need a large budget to back it. Without Stadia being more popular I don't see anyone throwing all their eggs in that basket. Because it could only run on Stadia and nowhere else. One way to mitigate risk would have been to build for both Luna (Amazon) and Stadia. But neither are very popular, and one is Windows-only while the other is Linux-only. So my risk would actually double, not mitigate since I have to develop for two platforms. I'm ignoring xCloud since it's just a bunch of Xboxes and no thanks. For smaller, mid-size/indie studios which are not building a massively multiplayer game, I just don't see the up side of making a Stadia-only game. They wouldn't be trivially portable to other platforms and players have learnt to live with network latencies. So, unless a Google-owned studio does it, I don't see truly cloud-first multiplayer game happening. Assuming that's what you meant by "cloud first". OTOH Ubisoft does ship their games on Stadia and I'd be curious to know if the experience in, for example, The Division 2 is any better. Even if the game doesn't scale the number of players in an instance, they should still get some benefit of being on Stadia. It doesn't seem to be a very popular mode in the game's subreddit though.

aaomidi 6y ago

Cloud gaming is just not really good enough for me for fast paced games. I've tried GeForce Now, Stadia, and Shadow. So far GFN is my favorite and Shadow is my least favorite but tbf I'm not in the proper region for Shadow.

fishtacos 6y ago
Haven't tried Stadia, but I can certainly vouch for GFN. The lag is comparable to consoles on TV (and in some games, better), so while it would be a handicap in PC-centric fast-paced games, I was damn impressed with it. If I had a reason to pay the $5/month premium for unlimited gameplay away from home, I certainly would.

randmeerkat 6y ago

I tried GeForce Now with a high speed internet connection (Comcast) with Counter-Strike and I found the game to be unplayable from the lag. I double checked my speed test and router settings, it should’ve been fine. Ultimately I believe these services represent the future of gaming, but without net neutrality or alternative ISPs it’s going to be awhile before that future is realized.

filleokus 6y ago
Did you use wifi or wired ethernet? I have a super stable 1 Gb/s fiber connection with like 5-7 ms to a close by AWS data center where I ran Parsec on a VM. I got ≈ 400 Mb/s to the VM, with < 10 ms ping over my 5 Ghz wifi. But I could still never get a stable setup. As soon as I went wired everything worked great. I think jitter is a big problem. With a wired setup I could also move to further away DC's (like 20 ms) without any issue.
- randmeerkat 6y ago
  It was wifi, my connection speed with speedtest over wifi was 100Mb down and 30Mb up. I should probably note I was also sitting next to my wifi router, so I’m not sure that a wired connection would’ve made a noticeable difference.
  - nitrogen 6y ago
    Even right next to the antenna, wires will have less latency and packet loss than wireless.
    - randmeerkat 6y ago
      Sure but it shouldn’t be noticeable. For example, I can play Counter-Strike on my computer itself just fine over wireless without the latency issues.
      - filleokus 6y ago

Ericson2314 6y ago

PC gaming is like the last bastion of quasi-mainstream general compute at home, so I seriously hope it doesn't go away.

hombre_fatal 6y ago
I never bought another game on my girlfriend's console after considering the fact that I have games in my Steam library that I bought 10+ years ago while the $60 game I buy on her console just lasts until the hardware breaks and they shut down the eShop. That's such a bad deal I'm surprised that I ever made it. Aside, I wonder how much the jumbo-sized ATX / tower PC case market has sold consoles by making people think they have to pick between a stupidly big server-sized PC tower vs. a cute little console that fits under the TV. I think the ATX/tower form-factor has played a nontrivial hand in preventing culture of having a small but powerful PC at the center of the home entertainment system. The small-form factor trend is finally picking up steam (https://old.reddit.com/r/sffpc/ https://old.reddit.com/r/sffpc/) and it amazes me that this isn't yet the standard.
- Yizahi 6y ago
  SFFPC is still too much hassle for an average builder, plus "ITX tax" is not very attractive too. I have built my first SFF last winter and I had to read that sub for a long time to find out all compatibility issues, and even then I ran into incompatible cooler mount and MB, I had to use a bit of force to set CPU cooler on a crooked mount. And latest trend of AIB GPU manufacturers to abandon 2-slot format is also not good for SFF. Another issue are thermals. I can find out that my SSD is overheating to 105* in the nice looking ITX case and mitigate that a little (I have to hope now that 82-83* on a working SSD won't kill it too fast). Average user will see this by a blue smoke coming out of the case :) I wish there was more initiative from big manufacturers in that area.

Darmody 6y ago

Not OP. I can't wait to see Google dump Stadia.

google234123 6y ago
Curious why you care about this?
- Darmody 6y ago
  I don't like the concept of not owning anything anymore. I don't like paying subscriptions for everything to big companies. It's detrimental to consumers.
  - google234123 6y ago
    So why aren't you complaining about Steam then? At least that's somewhat tangentially related to this article.

idiot900 6y ago

Stadia is really sensitive to lag. In my urban home, with a reliable high-speed broadband connection, it works pretty well when physically connected by Ethernet, but the stuttering is intolerable on wifi.