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Camouflaged Military Bunkers of Switzerland (2015)

jack_riminton 6y ago
Fascinating. Some more here: https://addpmp.slamjam.com/index/camouflaged-swiss-bunkers https://addpmp.slamjam.com/index/camouflaged-swiss-bunkers Would make a great backdrop to a Wes Anderson film
nix23 6y ago
I was in many of them, one of the most impressive was "the 5-star hotel" with a hall so big that you could calibrate tank-cannons and in another "bunker/fortress" you could "throw" out f-18 fighter-jets. Edit: BTW that the entrance of the 5-Star: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Mels_4_Haupteing_Castello.JPG/1920px-Mels_4_Haupteing_Castello.JPG https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Me... The plate is for making fun of new recruits because it's the opposite of a "5-Star" and for sure not a "Hotel"
- folli 6y ago
  To hijack your comment: all of these type of bunkers mentioned in the article are decommissioned as they don't match the modern military doctrine. The majority of these bunkers are artillery and anti-tank bunkers built during the cold war (some during WWII) to play a decisive role in large tank battles. The article confuses this, as there were some plans in actually deconstructing them which however turned out to be too expensive. So virtually all of these bunkers were indeed decommissioned and most also declassified in the last 10 years (some turned into a museum e.g. a WWII bunker https://www.crestawald.ch/ https://www.crestawald.ch/). Others, such as the Castello mentioned by /u/nix23 are used as temporary barracks for troops, but don't have an actual defensive function any more.
  - nix23 6y ago
    True the only still kind of used ones are the command bunkers, and even they are really outdated. >Others, such as the Castello mentioned by /u/nix23 are used as temporary barracks for troops, but don't have an actual defensive function any more. But temporary is not quite right when it's used for then first 10 weeks of recruiting school ;)
  - microtherion 6y ago
    Yes, the very pictures used in the article are evidence that the bunkers are decommissioned. Tourists who took pictures like that used to get a stern talking-to and their pictures would get confiscated.
- xg15 6y ago
  > 5-star hotel Before viewing the picture, I was thinking they had hidden a whole base in a fake Four Seasons building in Zurich or something like that. After all the other camouflage, I wouldn't have put it past them.
  - nix23 6y ago
    Haha, i was laughing out lough!! Thanks, you made my day....but on the other hand...who knows :)
tsjq 6y ago
But what about air flow / ventilation in these? Many seem to have no windows.
- nix23 6y ago
  It's made with ventilation thru hidden inlets (often hundreds of meters away), the outlets are over pressure protected, when a explosion outside goes off those then close, so the inhabitants have no eardrum rapture, in the case of nuclear/chemical/bio attack you attach big filters to the inlets. In some Bunkers the circulation is so bad, that after 2 week sleeping on your mattress mold starts to grow in it (bunkerhusten (bunkercough) is common after 1-3 weeks because of that mold), natural fortresses/bunkers drip water quite allot from the ceiling, but sleeping and living "rooms" are normally plastered or with concrete walls.
  - DoingIsLearning 6y ago
    > It's made with ventilation thru hidden inlets (often hundreds of meters away), the outlets are over pressure protected, when a explosion outside goes off those then close, so the inhabitants have not eardrum rapture, in the case of nuclear/chemical/bio attack you attach big filters to the inlets. Maybe a stupid question, I understand that with Swiss Conscription this is perhaps common knowledge for a large chunk of the Swiss population. Nevertheless is this really public knowledge? As in, should you really be disclosing how bunker ventilation operates, and the additional protection mechanisms etc.?
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - nl 6y ago
      You can take tours and see plans: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/in-case-of-emergency_the-forgotten-underground-world-of-swiss-bunkers/42395820 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/in-case-of-emergency_the-forgot...
    - nix23 6y ago
      >should you really be disclosing how bunker ventilation operates, and the additional protection mechanisms etc. No problem, even civil bunkers works like that, you can make tours and even buy some. However there are some bunkers which are used as "control-centers" and those locations are kind of ~secret, but then again i'm really sure that Russia and the US already know much more about them as i do. That's a typical over-pressure vent (seen from the inside): http://www.bochumer-bunker.de/Spellna2.jpg http://www.bochumer-bunker.de/Spellna2.jpg And a filter-system for civil use (with hand-crank in case of power-outage): https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/Filteranlage_Luftschutz.JPG/220px-Filteranlage_Luftschutz.JPG https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/Fi... And one for big Bunkers/Fortresses: http://www.vorbei-ev.de/wwwa/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/bunker_gsvbw_image2017-09_15-768x576.jpg http://www.vorbei-ev.de/wwwa/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/bunk... Hint for recruits/active military: In military bunkers the outlets are also very important so that the "enemy" cannot smell your kitchen or see the warm air (infrared), which makes it a excellent place to smoke some green stuff ;)
ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
Looks like anyone wanting to invade is in for a rough patch, but maybe modern tech renders these types of things worthless. Considering what a rough time the US (and Russia) has had in Afghanistan, I suspect they'd still be fairly effective.
- speeder 6y ago
  This made me remember something about castles... I was wondering, how useful are ancient castles in modern battles? Armchair generals all over the planet kept prattling about them being useless because modern weaponry is awesome and all... Then I went to look properly: 1. Kerak de Chevaliers, yes, that one crusader castle, was occupied during the Syrian war, and gave a hard time to the enemy outside, the castle worked exactly as intended, even with modern weapons. 2. Ditto to a bunch of other castles in some past wars. 3. A fortified monastery gave enemies a hard time in WW2 in Italy, I forgot its name now. 4. Not exactly "ancient castle", but a "star fort" in France was captured in the opening days of Battle of Verdun, in part because the french leadership believed castles to be outdated and didn't garrisoned it properly... the result was that the attempts to retake the fort resulted in 100.000 casualties on the French side before they succeeded. 5. Also in Verdun there was a smaller fort, the commander of that fort was old and the military ordered him to retire for medical reasons, he refused and basically "kept" the fort as his own, with a small garrison, the old guy and his small garrison fought fiercely against the invading Germans and caused 3000 casualties to the Germans before they lost.
  - samizdis 6y ago
    > 3. A fortified monastery gave enemies a hard time in WW2 in Italy, I forgot its name now. Monte Cassino? See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Monte_Cassino https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Monte_Cassino
    - ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
      I'll tell you. This[0] is a hell of a photo. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Monte_Cassino#/media/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-577-1917-08,_Monte_Cassino,_Fallschirmjäger_mit_Granatwerfer.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Monte_Cassino#/media...
lqet 6y ago
Also an interesting fact: The Swiss packed all bridges connecting Switzerland to Germany with tons of explosives until just recently. The wooden bridge [0] connecting Bad Säckingen with Stein contained hundreds of kilo of TNT until 2015. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holzbr%C3%BCcke_Bad_S%C3%A4ckingen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holzbr%C3%BCcke_Bad_S%C3%A4cki...
- nix23 6y ago
  You have explosive nearly on every main bridge and "autobahn" sometimes in the street sometimes on the walls of mountains, to slow down tanks/troop transports. Fun detail: Those can just be detonated with a "encoded" metal-plate. They look a bit like that: https://img.luzernerzeitung.ch/2018/4/14/5f68fda6-34ec-4375-995c-758a7fec3897.jpeg?width=1360&height=944&fit=crop&quality=75&auto=webp https://img.luzernerzeitung.ch/2018/4/14/5f68fda6-34ec-4375-...
  - Faaak 6y ago
    There was explosives, but they've all been taken out ~10 years ago
    - nix23 6y ago
      True, but not all, just most of them.
  - awiesenhofer 6y ago
    So wait, these were pressure sensitive and triggered if the right "pins" were pushed when driving over them (if the metal plate was in place)? Glad I only heared about this now and not back when I was driving over these regularly...
    - nix23 6y ago
      Hehe no :) you have a central ignition away from the street (hidden in a bush under bridge etc) and it looks often like a sewer cover, if you uncover it you have 8-16 holes, on top of them you have to place your correctly encoded metal-plate then you place the igniter in the metal-plate-hole, that igniter fires another igniter and the whole bridge/street goes boom, if its the wrong hole (or wrong encoded metal-plate) you just destroy the main igniter and nothing will and can ever happen. EDIT: The first ignition (the one in the plate) is manually fired often hundreds of meters away thru a fuse-cord, but you can "in theory" automatize it (trip wire or other technique's) witch is absolutely illegal, same with claymore's...they just have holes in the splinter to safe some weight ;) BTW: DON'T try to open those sewer covers, you WILL have big problems in a matter of minutes.
roel_v 6y ago
Oh these are cool. When I was a teen, I stayed in one during a trek in the Alps; and then again (in another one) a few years later when I was a youth camp counselor myself. I was cooking dinner in the kitchen of the one we were staying at, and the supervisor came in, and casually told us "see that trap door you're standing on? If this bunker would actually be used during war, that's where any dead bodies would be stored in." Made for great "scary stories" around the campfire.
- JayPeaEm 6y ago
  I've heard those trap doors referred to as leichenluke Many of my older neighbors said pre-1990, these bunkers were used in a drill and everyone realized how cramped things were; I believe they've been retrofit for far less occupants now.
  - roel_v 6y ago
    Oh I've often thought about what it must be like to live in there in the case of an actual war. There were 3 or 4 rooms with bunk beds, 20 or 30 sleeping spots in each; one common room, not much bigger than each if the bedrooms; the kitchen, and bathroom/washing area. It would be horrible being locked up with 100 others in there for months on end.
TobTobXX 6y ago
Fun Fact: The Swiss once lost tanks in their underground networks. Around 400. https://www.nzz.ch/maurers_schimmelnde_panzer-1.8120259 https://www.nzz.ch/maurers_schimmelnde_panzer-1.8120259
- GordonS 6y ago
  Might be a very stupid question, but when you saw "lost", do you mean they were destroyed somehow, or do you literally mean lost as in "couldn't find them"?
  - TobTobXX 6y ago
    The tanks were thought to be destroyed (they weren't in use anymore) but while cleaning up a bunker/ tunnel system (idk) the reappeared. So they were lost (couldn't find them) somewhere in the process, instead of destroyed.
- skitter 6y ago
  According to the article, they didn't loose them, the Minister of Defense just pretended they were suddenly found again.
- Shacklz 6y ago
  While such stories and the pictures posted here are rather interesting, as a Swiss, I also find it at the same time quite depressing. The Swiss army is a bottomless barrel when it comes to funding; always requiring & demanding money, while preparing for scenarios that were maybe somewhat plausible during the height of the cold war but are nowadays obviously antiquated, plain for anyone to see who doesn't wear the nostalgia-tinged glasses. It provides cool pictures such as the ones posted here and some nice stories, but apart from that - the billions currently going to the army could be used so much better.
  - yellowyacht 6y ago
    I'm not a Swiss, so I don't know what your army strategists are preparing for, but generally a military staff plans for dozens of scenarios, not a single one. The overall trend of conflicts has changed, but the frequency has not. This might surprise you. There have been many conflicts since WW2 and even the end of the CW https://reliefweb.int/sites/reliefweb.int/files/resources/Dupuy%2C%20Rustad-%20Trends%20in%20Armed%20Conflict%2C%201946%E2%80%932017%2C%20Conflict%20Trends%205-2018.pdf https://reliefweb.int/sites/reliefweb.int/files/resources/Du... I agree that a bottomless barrel of funding is the wrong approach and they should get it together
btrautsc 6y ago
These are very cool. Especially the ones that appear to be natural features. Unfortunately, my first though upon seeing military installations camouflaged as cabins, barns, homes - that gives an invading enemy a good excuse to target civilian structures...
- gnyman 6y ago
  I had the same thought, I even assumed there would be some international wartime law against it. But turns out it's apparently ok according to this study I found from US Naval College > Conventional IHL (international humanitarian law), then, indicates that at least one form of disguising a military object as a civilian object—camouflage—is a permissible ruse of war, not a prohibited act of perfidy. Page 521 https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/42550238.pdf https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/42550238.pdf
jeffrallen 6y ago
Can confirm. I live on the Toblerone trail. Have a bunker up the road from me. Very cool engineering.
iamacyborg 6y ago
Related reading for anyone who wants to learn more about this stuff http://www.bldgblog.com/2012/06/ http://www.bldgblog.com/2012/06/
m000 6y ago
Can we hope for a Fallout-Switzerland?
- nickelcitymario 6y ago
  I'd play that. I'd even buy a console for this purpose only. It'd be great.
matteuan 6y ago
The living example of the aphorism "Si vis pacem, para bellum" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Si_vis_pacem,_para_bellum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Si_vis_pacem,_para_bellum
- mhh__ 6y ago
  War with whom? 25 C model F-18s aren't going to stop any nation large enough to consider invading the world's bank in the first place.
  - arethuza 6y ago
    In David Brin's novel Earth part of the backstory is that WW3 is basically everyone else vs Switzerland and everyone nearly loses (the Swiss almost use cobalt salted doomsday bombs). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_(Brin_novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_(Brin_novel)
    - 082349872349872 6y ago
      Dirty bombs only lead to mineshaft gaps. — Why didn't you tell the world, EH? — It was to be announced at the P/a/r/t/y/ C/o/n/g/r/e/s/s/ Federal Council presser on Monday. As you know, the P/r/e/m/i/e/r/ President loves surprises. (as far as kleptocrats hiding loot in banks goes, I believe currently the New World, especially states such as Montana, are better tax-havens than we are.)
  - greatpatton 6y ago
    Switzerland has 30 F-18 (originally 32 but 2 crashed), and 53 F-5. The Tiger are due to be replaced soon as the people voted to buy new airplanes.
  - rhexs 6y ago
    How effective would the Swiss military really be? I looked up the last military operation they were in and couldn’t find anything relevant. Looks like they do extraordinary light peacekeeping and such. (Yes, yes, they’re “neutral”. Suppose I assumed they were still deploying with western bloc powers at least for some sort of combat experience training.) Seems like the military is more for show than anything else at this point. I can’t imagine a populace living some of the most privileged European/western lives possible would have the stomach for its populace taking heavy casualties in any form of conflict. The terrain is seemingly still their best advantage, but with modern air power this feels more like some sort of historical LARP the Swiss are proud of more than a force that would really achieve anything.
gourlaysama 6y ago
That reminds me of the two anti-tanks fortresses disguised as houses as part of the Toblerone line [1]. Those two were the only ones visible from the road by people (i.e. tourists), so they made them a bit less scary. The Tim Traveller did a wonderful video on those a few months ago [2]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toblerone_line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toblerone_line [2][video]: https://youtu.be/tPL9-L2gwzo https://youtu.be/tPL9-L2gwzo
graderjs 6y ago
At least these are not the sort of bases that can be hacked.
WalterGR 6y ago
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Ep6CIsW7r4Q/VaNXuMjLvaI/AAAAAAABEFE/4kITE7sbnfg/hidden-swiss-bunkers-3%25255B2%25255D.jpg?imgmax=800 https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Ep6CIsW7r4Q/VaNXuMjLvaI/A... But are those real goats or decoy goats?
- Apofis 6y ago
  They're actually camouflaged Boston Dynamics robots with powerful laser guns.
joshuaheard 6y ago
I travelled around Switzerland by car many years ago. I noticed there were military trucks driving around all the time, but I never saw a military base. I also noticed there were many iron entrance doors in the side of the mountains on the roads with no apparent purpose. Then one day, I saw one of these doors opened with 2 guards standing out front as a military truck drove into it. Finally, I figured out these must be tunnel entrances to the Swiss military bases.
- lukeqsee 6y ago
  There's also quite a few barracks / bases around, but not usually in places one drives.
- nix23 6y ago
  That's the Gotthard pass: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Gotthardpass_2015-09-21_16.02.05.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Gotthard... From here you can see three really small parts of a Bunker/Fortress (a supermassive one, probably the biggest in switzerland) ~quite clear.
filoeleven 6y ago
Huh, I’m reading Ministry for the Future (cli-fi) and just stopped last night as people were arriving at a camouflaged Swiss military bunker. Very cool to see images of real-life ones today.
mementomori 6y ago
Curious. Let's say the Swiss military has been studying other conflicts and strategizing accordingly, but has not actually experienced any warfare in 200 years. Does the lack of actual experience in warfare put a force at a disadvantage to the forces that had experienced actual warfare?
- tW4r 6y ago
  Yes, that is why Chinese military for example has a lot of catching up to do to us, cause whatever your idea is about the efficiency of the military, they have been constantly involved in many conflicts after the Second World War
- geoff_sanders 6y ago
  To use a sports analogy, while game-time experience is valuable, it’s practice that wins games. Much of America’s military advantage is rooted in extensive, ongoing, and realistic training and exercises. Any country can train and practice, but to do so at operational scales and in a way that accurately portrays your adversary’s capabilities requires lots of money and accurate intelligence.

Fascinating. Some more here: https://addpmp.slamjam.com/index/camouflaged-swiss-bunkers https://addpmp.slamjam.com/index/camouflaged-swiss-bunkers Would make a great backdrop to a Wes Anderson film

nix23 6y ago

I was in many of them, one of the most impressive was "the 5-star hotel" with a hall so big that you could calibrate tank-cannons and in another "bunker/fortress" you could "throw" out f-18 fighter-jets. Edit: BTW that the entrance of the 5-Star: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Mels_4_Haupteing_Castello.JPG/1920px-Mels_4_Haupteing_Castello.JPG https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Me... The plate is for making fun of new recruits because it's the opposite of a "5-Star" and for sure not a "Hotel"

folli 6y ago
To hijack your comment: all of these type of bunkers mentioned in the article are decommissioned as they don't match the modern military doctrine. The majority of these bunkers are artillery and anti-tank bunkers built during the cold war (some during WWII) to play a decisive role in large tank battles. The article confuses this, as there were some plans in actually deconstructing them which however turned out to be too expensive. So virtually all of these bunkers were indeed decommissioned and most also declassified in the last 10 years (some turned into a museum e.g. a WWII bunker https://www.crestawald.ch/ https://www.crestawald.ch/). Others, such as the Castello mentioned by /u/nix23 are used as temporary barracks for troops, but don't have an actual defensive function any more.
- nix23 6y ago
  True the only still kind of used ones are the command bunkers, and even they are really outdated. >Others, such as the Castello mentioned by /u/nix23 are used as temporary barracks for troops, but don't have an actual defensive function any more. But temporary is not quite right when it's used for then first 10 weeks of recruiting school ;)
- microtherion 6y ago
  Yes, the very pictures used in the article are evidence that the bunkers are decommissioned. Tourists who took pictures like that used to get a stern talking-to and their pictures would get confiscated.
xg15 6y ago
> 5-star hotel Before viewing the picture, I was thinking they had hidden a whole base in a fake Four Seasons building in Zurich or something like that. After all the other camouflage, I wouldn't have put it past them.
- nix23 6y ago
  Haha, i was laughing out lough!! Thanks, you made my day....but on the other hand...who knows :)

tsjq 6y ago

But what about air flow / ventilation in these? Many seem to have no windows.

nix23 6y ago
It's made with ventilation thru hidden inlets (often hundreds of meters away), the outlets are over pressure protected, when a explosion outside goes off those then close, so the inhabitants have no eardrum rapture, in the case of nuclear/chemical/bio attack you attach big filters to the inlets. In some Bunkers the circulation is so bad, that after 2 week sleeping on your mattress mold starts to grow in it (bunkerhusten (bunkercough) is common after 1-3 weeks because of that mold), natural fortresses/bunkers drip water quite allot from the ceiling, but sleeping and living "rooms" are normally plastered or with concrete walls.
- DoingIsLearning 6y ago
  > It's made with ventilation thru hidden inlets (often hundreds of meters away), the outlets are over pressure protected, when a explosion outside goes off those then close, so the inhabitants have not eardrum rapture, in the case of nuclear/chemical/bio attack you attach big filters to the inlets. Maybe a stupid question, I understand that with Swiss Conscription this is perhaps common knowledge for a large chunk of the Swiss population. Nevertheless is this really public knowledge? As in, should you really be disclosing how bunker ventilation operates, and the additional protection mechanisms etc.?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - nl 6y ago
    You can take tours and see plans: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/in-case-of-emergency_the-forgotten-underground-world-of-swiss-bunkers/42395820 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/in-case-of-emergency_the-forgot...
  - nix23 6y ago
    >should you really be disclosing how bunker ventilation operates, and the additional protection mechanisms etc. No problem, even civil bunkers works like that, you can make tours and even buy some. However there are some bunkers which are used as "control-centers" and those locations are kind of ~secret, but then again i'm really sure that Russia and the US already know much more about them as i do. That's a typical over-pressure vent (seen from the inside): http://www.bochumer-bunker.de/Spellna2.jpg http://www.bochumer-bunker.de/Spellna2.jpg And a filter-system for civil use (with hand-crank in case of power-outage): https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/Filteranlage_Luftschutz.JPG/220px-Filteranlage_Luftschutz.JPG https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/Fi... And one for big Bunkers/Fortresses: http://www.vorbei-ev.de/wwwa/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/bunker_gsvbw_image2017-09_15-768x576.jpg http://www.vorbei-ev.de/wwwa/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/bunk... Hint for recruits/active military: In military bunkers the outlets are also very important so that the "enemy" cannot smell your kitchen or see the warm air (infrared), which makes it a excellent place to smoke some green stuff ;)

ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago

Looks like anyone wanting to invade is in for a rough patch, but maybe modern tech renders these types of things worthless. Considering what a rough time the US (and Russia) has had in Afghanistan, I suspect they'd still be fairly effective.

speeder 6y ago
This made me remember something about castles... I was wondering, how useful are ancient castles in modern battles? Armchair generals all over the planet kept prattling about them being useless because modern weaponry is awesome and all... Then I went to look properly: 1. Kerak de Chevaliers, yes, that one crusader castle, was occupied during the Syrian war, and gave a hard time to the enemy outside, the castle worked exactly as intended, even with modern weapons. 2. Ditto to a bunch of other castles in some past wars. 3. A fortified monastery gave enemies a hard time in WW2 in Italy, I forgot its name now. 4. Not exactly "ancient castle", but a "star fort" in France was captured in the opening days of Battle of Verdun, in part because the french leadership believed castles to be outdated and didn't garrisoned it properly... the result was that the attempts to retake the fort resulted in 100.000 casualties on the French side before they succeeded. 5. Also in Verdun there was a smaller fort, the commander of that fort was old and the military ordered him to retire for medical reasons, he refused and basically "kept" the fort as his own, with a small garrison, the old guy and his small garrison fought fiercely against the invading Germans and caused 3000 casualties to the Germans before they lost.
- samizdis 6y ago
  > 3. A fortified monastery gave enemies a hard time in WW2 in Italy, I forgot its name now. Monte Cassino? See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Monte_Cassino https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Monte_Cassino
  - ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
    I'll tell you. This[0] is a hell of a photo. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Monte_Cassino#/media/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-577-1917-08,_Monte_Cassino,_Fallschirmjäger_mit_Granatwerfer.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Monte_Cassino#/media...

lqet 6y ago

Also an interesting fact: The Swiss packed all bridges connecting Switzerland to Germany with tons of explosives until just recently. The wooden bridge [0] connecting Bad Säckingen with Stein contained hundreds of kilo of TNT until 2015. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holzbr%C3%BCcke_Bad_S%C3%A4ckingen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holzbr%C3%BCcke_Bad_S%C3%A4cki...

nix23 6y ago
You have explosive nearly on every main bridge and "autobahn" sometimes in the street sometimes on the walls of mountains, to slow down tanks/troop transports. Fun detail: Those can just be detonated with a "encoded" metal-plate. They look a bit like that: https://img.luzernerzeitung.ch/2018/4/14/5f68fda6-34ec-4375-995c-758a7fec3897.jpeg?width=1360&height=944&fit=crop&quality=75&auto=webp https://img.luzernerzeitung.ch/2018/4/14/5f68fda6-34ec-4375-...
- Faaak 6y ago
  There was explosives, but they've all been taken out ~10 years ago
  - nix23 6y ago
    True, but not all, just most of them.
- awiesenhofer 6y ago
  So wait, these were pressure sensitive and triggered if the right "pins" were pushed when driving over them (if the metal plate was in place)? Glad I only heared about this now and not back when I was driving over these regularly...
  - nix23 6y ago
    Hehe no :) you have a central ignition away from the street (hidden in a bush under bridge etc) and it looks often like a sewer cover, if you uncover it you have 8-16 holes, on top of them you have to place your correctly encoded metal-plate then you place the igniter in the metal-plate-hole, that igniter fires another igniter and the whole bridge/street goes boom, if its the wrong hole (or wrong encoded metal-plate) you just destroy the main igniter and nothing will and can ever happen. EDIT: The first ignition (the one in the plate) is manually fired often hundreds of meters away thru a fuse-cord, but you can "in theory" automatize it (trip wire or other technique's) witch is absolutely illegal, same with claymore's...they just have holes in the splinter to safe some weight ;) BTW: DON'T try to open those sewer covers, you WILL have big problems in a matter of minutes.

roel_v 6y ago

Oh these are cool. When I was a teen, I stayed in one during a trek in the Alps; and then again (in another one) a few years later when I was a youth camp counselor myself. I was cooking dinner in the kitchen of the one we were staying at, and the supervisor came in, and casually told us "see that trap door you're standing on? If this bunker would actually be used during war, that's where any dead bodies would be stored in." Made for great "scary stories" around the campfire.

JayPeaEm 6y ago
I've heard those trap doors referred to as leichenluke Many of my older neighbors said pre-1990, these bunkers were used in a drill and everyone realized how cramped things were; I believe they've been retrofit for far less occupants now.
- roel_v 6y ago
  Oh I've often thought about what it must be like to live in there in the case of an actual war. There were 3 or 4 rooms with bunk beds, 20 or 30 sleeping spots in each; one common room, not much bigger than each if the bedrooms; the kitchen, and bathroom/washing area. It would be horrible being locked up with 100 others in there for months on end.

TobTobXX 6y ago

Fun Fact: The Swiss once lost tanks in their underground networks. Around 400. https://www.nzz.ch/maurers_schimmelnde_panzer-1.8120259 https://www.nzz.ch/maurers_schimmelnde_panzer-1.8120259

GordonS 6y ago
Might be a very stupid question, but when you saw "lost", do you mean they were destroyed somehow, or do you literally mean lost as in "couldn't find them"?
- TobTobXX 6y ago
  The tanks were thought to be destroyed (they weren't in use anymore) but while cleaning up a bunker/ tunnel system (idk) the reappeared. So they were lost (couldn't find them) somewhere in the process, instead of destroyed.
skitter 6y ago
According to the article, they didn't loose them, the Minister of Defense just pretended they were suddenly found again.
Shacklz 6y ago
While such stories and the pictures posted here are rather interesting, as a Swiss, I also find it at the same time quite depressing. The Swiss army is a bottomless barrel when it comes to funding; always requiring & demanding money, while preparing for scenarios that were maybe somewhat plausible during the height of the cold war but are nowadays obviously antiquated, plain for anyone to see who doesn't wear the nostalgia-tinged glasses. It provides cool pictures such as the ones posted here and some nice stories, but apart from that - the billions currently going to the army could be used so much better.
- yellowyacht 6y ago
  I'm not a Swiss, so I don't know what your army strategists are preparing for, but generally a military staff plans for dozens of scenarios, not a single one. The overall trend of conflicts has changed, but the frequency has not. This might surprise you. There have been many conflicts since WW2 and even the end of the CW https://reliefweb.int/sites/reliefweb.int/files/resources/Dupuy%2C%20Rustad-%20Trends%20in%20Armed%20Conflict%2C%201946%E2%80%932017%2C%20Conflict%20Trends%205-2018.pdf https://reliefweb.int/sites/reliefweb.int/files/resources/Du... I agree that a bottomless barrel of funding is the wrong approach and they should get it together

btrautsc 6y ago

These are very cool. Especially the ones that appear to be natural features. Unfortunately, my first though upon seeing military installations camouflaged as cabins, barns, homes - that gives an invading enemy a good excuse to target civilian structures...

gnyman 6y ago
I had the same thought, I even assumed there would be some international wartime law against it. But turns out it's apparently ok according to this study I found from US Naval College > Conventional IHL (international humanitarian law), then, indicates that at least one form of disguising a military object as a civilian object—camouflage—is a permissible ruse of war, not a prohibited act of perfidy. Page 521 https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/42550238.pdf https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/42550238.pdf

jeffrallen 6y ago

Can confirm. I live on the Toblerone trail. Have a bunker up the road from me. Very cool engineering.

iamacyborg 6y ago

Related reading for anyone who wants to learn more about this stuff http://www.bldgblog.com/2012/06/ http://www.bldgblog.com/2012/06/

m000 6y ago

Can we hope for a Fallout-Switzerland?

nickelcitymario 6y ago
I'd play that. I'd even buy a console for this purpose only. It'd be great.

matteuan 6y ago

The living example of the aphorism "Si vis pacem, para bellum" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Si_vis_pacem,_para_bellum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Si_vis_pacem,_para_bellum

mhh__ 6y ago
War with whom? 25 C model F-18s aren't going to stop any nation large enough to consider invading the world's bank in the first place.
- arethuza 6y ago
  In David Brin's novel Earth part of the backstory is that WW3 is basically everyone else vs Switzerland and everyone nearly loses (the Swiss almost use cobalt salted doomsday bombs). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_(Brin_novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_(Brin_novel)
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    Dirty bombs only lead to mineshaft gaps. — Why didn't you tell the world, EH? — It was to be announced at the P/a/r/t/y/ C/o/n/g/r/e/s/s/ Federal Council presser on Monday. As you know, the P/r/e/m/i/e/r/ President loves surprises. (as far as kleptocrats hiding loot in banks goes, I believe currently the New World, especially states such as Montana, are better tax-havens than we are.)
- greatpatton 6y ago
  Switzerland has 30 F-18 (originally 32 but 2 crashed), and 53 F-5. The Tiger are due to be replaced soon as the people voted to buy new airplanes.
- rhexs 6y ago
  How effective would the Swiss military really be? I looked up the last military operation they were in and couldn’t find anything relevant. Looks like they do extraordinary light peacekeeping and such. (Yes, yes, they’re “neutral”. Suppose I assumed they were still deploying with western bloc powers at least for some sort of combat experience training.) Seems like the military is more for show than anything else at this point. I can’t imagine a populace living some of the most privileged European/western lives possible would have the stomach for its populace taking heavy casualties in any form of conflict. The terrain is seemingly still their best advantage, but with modern air power this feels more like some sort of historical LARP the Swiss are proud of more than a force that would really achieve anything.

gourlaysama 6y ago

That reminds me of the two anti-tanks fortresses disguised as houses as part of the Toblerone line [1]. Those two were the only ones visible from the road by people (i.e. tourists), so they made them a bit less scary. The Tim Traveller did a wonderful video on those a few months ago [2]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toblerone_line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toblerone_line [2][video]: https://youtu.be/tPL9-L2gwzo https://youtu.be/tPL9-L2gwzo

graderjs 6y ago

At least these are not the sort of bases that can be hacked.

WalterGR 6y ago

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Ep6CIsW7r4Q/VaNXuMjLvaI/AAAAAAABEFE/4kITE7sbnfg/hidden-swiss-bunkers-3%25255B2%25255D.jpg?imgmax=800 https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Ep6CIsW7r4Q/VaNXuMjLvaI/A... But are those real goats or decoy goats?

Apofis 6y ago
They're actually camouflaged Boston Dynamics robots with powerful laser guns.

joshuaheard 6y ago

I travelled around Switzerland by car many years ago. I noticed there were military trucks driving around all the time, but I never saw a military base. I also noticed there were many iron entrance doors in the side of the mountains on the roads with no apparent purpose. Then one day, I saw one of these doors opened with 2 guards standing out front as a military truck drove into it. Finally, I figured out these must be tunnel entrances to the Swiss military bases.

lukeqsee 6y ago
There's also quite a few barracks / bases around, but not usually in places one drives.
nix23 6y ago
That's the Gotthard pass: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Gotthardpass_2015-09-21_16.02.05.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Gotthard... From here you can see three really small parts of a Bunker/Fortress (a supermassive one, probably the biggest in switzerland) ~quite clear.

filoeleven 6y ago

Huh, I’m reading Ministry for the Future (cli-fi) and just stopped last night as people were arriving at a camouflaged Swiss military bunker. Very cool to see images of real-life ones today.

mementomori 6y ago

Curious. Let's say the Swiss military has been studying other conflicts and strategizing accordingly, but has not actually experienced any warfare in 200 years. Does the lack of actual experience in warfare put a force at a disadvantage to the forces that had experienced actual warfare?

tW4r 6y ago
Yes, that is why Chinese military for example has a lot of catching up to do to us, cause whatever your idea is about the efficiency of the military, they have been constantly involved in many conflicts after the Second World War
geoff_sanders 6y ago
To use a sports analogy, while game-time experience is valuable, it’s practice that wins games. Much of America’s military advantage is rooted in extensive, ongoing, and realistic training and exercises. Any country can train and practice, but to do so at operational scales and in a way that accurately portrays your adversary’s capabilities requires lots of money and accurate intelligence.