7 ms·

> I want ALL my subscriptions to go through Apple Pay and App store. You do so only because you believe have no choice as you know that your democracy is so cr

> I want ALL my subscriptions to go through Apple Pay and App store. You do so only because you believe have no choice as you know that your democracy is so crippled that you don't expect them to protect your rights as a consumer any more! Where as many Europeans and Asians, who also enjoy democratic rights, will tell you openly that we would prefer that our democratically elected government protect our consumer rights through regulations that bind all corporates to behave themselves.

tshaddox 6y ago
Well, okay, it may be the case that our democracy is so crippled that it can’t protect basic consumer rights. But even so, what are we supposed to do? Quit our jobs, abandon our livelihoods, and take to the streets until our government decides we’re too much trouble and hands over power to a more consumer-friendly replacement government? Or just continue to want to use subscriptions through Apple where possible?
- danieldk 6y ago
  I don't know, perhaps vote for politicians that do have your rights and not corporation's rights at heart? Convince people that protecting their rights and livelihoods is not socialism or unamerican? I know that this is difficult in the US, both because there is so little choice in elections and it is difficult to convince other people to vote differently. But you can be sure that if everyone puts all their eggs in Apple's (or more generally FAANG's) basket, their only interest is and will be their corporate profit, not your or content creators' rights.
  - ummonk 6y ago
    Dude you're responding to someone in Belarus. Americans voting for nonsocialist candidates is not the issue there.
    - danieldk 6y ago
      Wait what? Googling the user name that I am replying to leads to: https://github.com/baddox https://github.com/baddox San Francisco, CA
      - ummonk 6y ago
        Sorry my bad you're correct.
  - Siira 6y ago
    “Voting” for pre-selected candidates in rigged elections without a way to hold the elected accountable to their promises, basically means the citizens have zero means but strikes/violent protests. (This is true in most non-Western “democracies”.)
- rglullis 6y ago
  This is a false dichotomy that both pro-government and pro-corporate people fall into. Whether Apple or "Our Government", we shouldn't be giving this much power to institutions. > But even so, what are we supposed to do? Vote with your wallet. Stop consuming whatever it is that comes with attached strings. Stop putting convenience above principles. Refuse to pay/subscribe/accept any terms that are clearly not in your best interest. You don't need Big Government to do that. You don't even need to be part of a mobilized group. It's in your hands and every individual can choose for themselves. Let's take responsibility for our own actions and stop using the vices/failings of others to excuse ourselves to do the same.
  - Hokusai 6y ago
    > You don't need Big Government to do that. Regulations are there tools that citizens have to reign in corporate behavior. 'Big government' is just a catch name for many anti regulation lobbying entities to remove power from citizens and acumulats it on corporations. > Vote with your wallet. Yes. And also vote with your ballots, one person one vote triumphs one dollar one vote if you want freedom.
    - rglullis 6y ago
      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25330764 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25330764
    - dimitrios1 6y ago
      > 'Big government' is just a catch name for many anti regulation lobbying entities to remove power from citizens and acumulats it on corporations. This is completely reductionist, and completely uninformed. Banks, as an easy counter example to your worldview, don't have armies of third party regulators, corporate compliance staff, and auditors because they hate regulation. They love big government. It acts as a barrier to entry for them, because they already have the 10,000 person department ready to modify procedures and legal documents to comply with the next set of regulations while the little banks drown. Regulators frequently dine with top bank executives, but I can assure you they aren't dining with the citizenry or your local regional bank. Every amount of extra regulation just increases tyranny. It makes the American dream more untenable. I want people to succeed and not rely on giant mega corporations for their well being and wealth generation. You can rightly claim that I'm an anti-regulation lobbying entity in this regard, if you wish.
- Closi 6y ago
  How about just enforce a standard which all companies have to follow through legislation? (See: Open Banking)
  - rglullis 6y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture
    - Closi 6y ago
      "We shouldn't do something, because someone might use it as an opportunity to make it worse" Great.
      - rglullis 6y ago
        More like "we should only try to implement large-scale systems after we test a smaller-scale of it and that we are sure that no side-effect is worse than the problems we are trying to solve in the first place"
- d1amonds 6y ago
  > But even so, what are we supposed to do? You are to ask precicely this question and think up variations of it. I was just pondering how easy we dedicate our lives to a thing in contrast with how unpopular dying for it is. It doesn't seem both can be right at the same time?
- webmobdev 6y ago
  > But even so, what are we supposed to do? Quit our jobs, abandon our livelihoods, and take to the streets If necessary yes. Your forefathers fought hard to earn you your democratic and associated rights that you have all taken for granted. And that's why its slow erosion has only now made you start to feel a bit uncomfortable. So yes, you too need to start asserting for your rights. And no, to begin with you don't need to quit your job and take to the streets. Start by writing letters to the political parties of your country. Start by making your local politicians aware that you feel the government isn't concerned about your rights as a consumer. Escalate and urge others in your network to do the same. And move on from there. Democracy is designed to slow down political changes because abrupt political changes also has a lot of chaos. Initially you will only have to spend maybe an hour or two a week to do the above. As more and more people support you, and you all work together, this may increase to 5-10 hours a week depending on how much you are willing to commit yourself. Once a political party latches on to your issue, it then becomes a lot easier - join it or offer issue-based support to them. (Yes, often it is all quite boring and just takes patience and dedication. That's democracy - it is often boring participating in it, but still worth it).
rglullis 6y ago
This idea is one of my favorite tells to find out the level of alienation of people regarding their own governments. The top 10 conglomerates from South Korea amount to more than half their GDP. This level of centralization alone should tell you how the regulations are enacted to protect the corporations, not the people. If Germany (and more generally Brussels) was actually serious about environmental regulations, VW and all the German car makers would be exterminated after Dieselgate. Instead they got one or two scapegoats for VW (and no, the CEO being ousted and still receiving a generous retirement package does not count) and made it clear that the regulations are there just to give the people the illusion of control. "For my friends, everything; for my enemies, the law" -- this is what your democratically elected government is giving you.
- sveme 6y ago
  why do the workers of VW have to pay with a loss of their jobs for the wrongdoings of their managers? Several of those responsible have already spent time in prison, others will follow.
  - rglullis 6y ago
    Because it wasn't just the manager, but also the engineers that implemented the fraudulent system and the people doing QC that turned a blind eye and did not speak up. The manager is the one with most skin in the game and should go to jail, does not mean that anyone else is free from fault. By working for a company that kept an unfair advantage they also benefited from the fraud, they should also face some of the consequences.
    - WanderPanda 6y ago
      Yep, otherwise the feedback loop does not work. It works best if people at every stage question if their company is doing something wrong instead of selecting some high income people to blame and take all the liability. After all every worker should be incentivised to have skin in the game through stock compensation
  - hengheng 6y ago
gigatexal 6y ago
Not to speak for the op but for me it’s not that I’m lacking choice it’s that I want to use the first party solution because it works better. For me, it’s like a programming language with one canonical way to do something. It makes things so much easier. Easier to read. Easier to reason about. I just use the Apple version for things because 9/10 times it works flawlessly.
jevgeni 6y ago
First of all, as a European, I'm not sure what you are talking about. Try cancelling your mobile contract in Germany early. Secondly, I might want to buy/subscribe to things that come from companies outside of EU.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Depends if you are willing to have some support from Verbraucherschutzzentrale or not. I can tell you that my almost impossible to resign contract from Vodafone got quickly sorted out with their help.
  - rglullis 6y ago
    Still, it's not some universal right given by the wonderful democratic utopia that GP claims to live on, is it?
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      Last time I checked everyone is free to ask for their help. Now if we are discussing that their support should be gratis, ok that is another matter.
      - rglullis 6y ago
        The point is that - if we were to take seriously the claim that consumer rights are well protected by the governments outside of the US - their help shouldn't even be needed. My feeling living in Germany is that consumer protection rights goes as far as the "right" for some bureaucrat to keep their job. It's a constant feeling they create the problem so that they can sell the solution and get people to be oh-so-thankful for it.
        pjmlp 6y ago
        I see if differently, the EU governments have made it possible that such kind of help exists, and is actually empowered to protect us. In US, as far as I am aware it isn't even possible to have such kind of help, and those organizations that do try to help, just go through the same endless court sessions as hiring a random lawyer would do, plus having to pay them way beyond the almost symbolic "Gebühren" that you pay here. So while the situation isn't perfect, it could be much worse.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
cannabis_sam 6y ago
Democracy is crippled by corporate power and economic ideology, there’s no belief involved (except on the part of the economists).

tshaddox 6y ago

Well, okay, it may be the case that our democracy is so crippled that it can’t protect basic consumer rights. But even so, what are we supposed to do? Quit our jobs, abandon our livelihoods, and take to the streets until our government decides we’re too much trouble and hands over power to a more consumer-friendly replacement government? Or just continue to want to use subscriptions through Apple where possible?

danieldk 6y ago
I don't know, perhaps vote for politicians that do have your rights and not corporation's rights at heart? Convince people that protecting their rights and livelihoods is not socialism or unamerican? I know that this is difficult in the US, both because there is so little choice in elections and it is difficult to convince other people to vote differently. But you can be sure that if everyone puts all their eggs in Apple's (or more generally FAANG's) basket, their only interest is and will be their corporate profit, not your or content creators' rights.
- ummonk 6y ago
  Dude you're responding to someone in Belarus. Americans voting for nonsocialist candidates is not the issue there.
  - danieldk 6y ago
    Wait what? Googling the user name that I am replying to leads to: https://github.com/baddox https://github.com/baddox San Francisco, CA
    - ummonk 6y ago
      Sorry my bad you're correct.
- Siira 6y ago
  “Voting” for pre-selected candidates in rigged elections without a way to hold the elected accountable to their promises, basically means the citizens have zero means but strikes/violent protests. (This is true in most non-Western “democracies”.)
rglullis 6y ago
This is a false dichotomy that both pro-government and pro-corporate people fall into. Whether Apple or "Our Government", we shouldn't be giving this much power to institutions. > But even so, what are we supposed to do? Vote with your wallet. Stop consuming whatever it is that comes with attached strings. Stop putting convenience above principles. Refuse to pay/subscribe/accept any terms that are clearly not in your best interest. You don't need Big Government to do that. You don't even need to be part of a mobilized group. It's in your hands and every individual can choose for themselves. Let's take responsibility for our own actions and stop using the vices/failings of others to excuse ourselves to do the same.
- Hokusai 6y ago
  > You don't need Big Government to do that. Regulations are there tools that citizens have to reign in corporate behavior. 'Big government' is just a catch name for many anti regulation lobbying entities to remove power from citizens and acumulats it on corporations. > Vote with your wallet. Yes. And also vote with your ballots, one person one vote triumphs one dollar one vote if you want freedom.
  - rglullis 6y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25330764 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25330764
  - dimitrios1 6y ago
    > 'Big government' is just a catch name for many anti regulation lobbying entities to remove power from citizens and acumulats it on corporations. This is completely reductionist, and completely uninformed. Banks, as an easy counter example to your worldview, don't have armies of third party regulators, corporate compliance staff, and auditors because they hate regulation. They love big government. It acts as a barrier to entry for them, because they already have the 10,000 person department ready to modify procedures and legal documents to comply with the next set of regulations while the little banks drown. Regulators frequently dine with top bank executives, but I can assure you they aren't dining with the citizenry or your local regional bank. Every amount of extra regulation just increases tyranny. It makes the American dream more untenable. I want people to succeed and not rely on giant mega corporations for their well being and wealth generation. You can rightly claim that I'm an anti-regulation lobbying entity in this regard, if you wish.
Closi 6y ago
How about just enforce a standard which all companies have to follow through legislation? (See: Open Banking)
- rglullis 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture
  - Closi 6y ago
    "We shouldn't do something, because someone might use it as an opportunity to make it worse" Great.
    - rglullis 6y ago
      More like "we should only try to implement large-scale systems after we test a smaller-scale of it and that we are sure that no side-effect is worse than the problems we are trying to solve in the first place"
d1amonds 6y ago
> But even so, what are we supposed to do? You are to ask precicely this question and think up variations of it. I was just pondering how easy we dedicate our lives to a thing in contrast with how unpopular dying for it is. It doesn't seem both can be right at the same time?
webmobdev 6y ago
> But even so, what are we supposed to do? Quit our jobs, abandon our livelihoods, and take to the streets If necessary yes. Your forefathers fought hard to earn you your democratic and associated rights that you have all taken for granted. And that's why its slow erosion has only now made you start to feel a bit uncomfortable. So yes, you too need to start asserting for your rights. And no, to begin with you don't need to quit your job and take to the streets. Start by writing letters to the political parties of your country. Start by making your local politicians aware that you feel the government isn't concerned about your rights as a consumer. Escalate and urge others in your network to do the same. And move on from there. Democracy is designed to slow down political changes because abrupt political changes also has a lot of chaos. Initially you will only have to spend maybe an hour or two a week to do the above. As more and more people support you, and you all work together, this may increase to 5-10 hours a week depending on how much you are willing to commit yourself. Once a political party latches on to your issue, it then becomes a lot easier - join it or offer issue-based support to them. (Yes, often it is all quite boring and just takes patience and dedication. That's democracy - it is often boring participating in it, but still worth it).

rglullis 6y ago

This idea is one of my favorite tells to find out the level of alienation of people regarding their own governments. The top 10 conglomerates from South Korea amount to more than half their GDP. This level of centralization alone should tell you how the regulations are enacted to protect the corporations, not the people. If Germany (and more generally Brussels) was actually serious about environmental regulations, VW and all the German car makers would be exterminated after Dieselgate. Instead they got one or two scapegoats for VW (and no, the CEO being ousted and still receiving a generous retirement package does not count) and made it clear that the regulations are there just to give the people the illusion of control. "For my friends, everything; for my enemies, the law" -- this is what your democratically elected government is giving you.

sveme 6y ago
why do the workers of VW have to pay with a loss of their jobs for the wrongdoings of their managers? Several of those responsible have already spent time in prison, others will follow.
- rglullis 6y ago
  Because it wasn't just the manager, but also the engineers that implemented the fraudulent system and the people doing QC that turned a blind eye and did not speak up. The manager is the one with most skin in the game and should go to jail, does not mean that anyone else is free from fault. By working for a company that kept an unfair advantage they also benefited from the fraud, they should also face some of the consequences.
  - WanderPanda 6y ago
    Yep, otherwise the feedback loop does not work. It works best if people at every stage question if their company is doing something wrong instead of selecting some high income people to blame and take all the liability. After all every worker should be incentivised to have skin in the game through stock compensation
- hengheng 6y ago

gigatexal 6y ago

Not to speak for the op but for me it’s not that I’m lacking choice it’s that I want to use the first party solution because it works better. For me, it’s like a programming language with one canonical way to do something. It makes things so much easier. Easier to read. Easier to reason about. I just use the Apple version for things because 9/10 times it works flawlessly.

jevgeni 6y ago

First of all, as a European, I'm not sure what you are talking about. Try cancelling your mobile contract in Germany early. Secondly, I might want to buy/subscribe to things that come from companies outside of EU.

pjmlp 6y ago
Depends if you are willing to have some support from Verbraucherschutzzentrale or not. I can tell you that my almost impossible to resign contract from Vodafone got quickly sorted out with their help.
- rglullis 6y ago
  Still, it's not some universal right given by the wonderful democratic utopia that GP claims to live on, is it?
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Last time I checked everyone is free to ask for their help. Now if we are discussing that their support should be gratis, ok that is another matter.
    - rglullis 6y ago
      The point is that - if we were to take seriously the claim that consumer rights are well protected by the governments outside of the US - their help shouldn't even be needed. My feeling living in Germany is that consumer protection rights goes as far as the "right" for some bureaucrat to keep their job. It's a constant feeling they create the problem so that they can sell the solution and get people to be oh-so-thankful for it.
      - pjmlp 6y ago
        I see if differently, the EU governments have made it possible that such kind of help exists, and is actually empowered to protect us. In US, as far as I am aware it isn't even possible to have such kind of help, and those organizations that do try to help, just go through the same endless court sessions as hiring a random lawyer would do, plus having to pay them way beyond the almost symbolic "Gebühren" that you pay here. So while the situation isn't perfect, it could be much worse.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

cannabis_sam 6y ago

Democracy is crippled by corporate power and economic ideology, there’s no belief involved (except on the part of the economists).