5 ms·

And billions of profits go to owners and shareholders, while developers crunch 80 hours/week for $2000-3000/month.

by sim_card_map 6y ago

aaron-santos 6y ago
If they don't want to have their labor power exploited, why don't they work somewhere else?
- fatbird 6y ago
  Volunteering to be exploited doesn't absolve the exploiter of their wrongdoing.
- Dylan16807 6y ago
  It's very hard to change jobs.
- approxim8ion 6y ago
  It's the status quo in their industry.
Aqua 6y ago
Indeed, that's what companies do, earn money for their investors and owners. Sorry to be blunt, but that's how the world works and arguably talented developers can relatively easily find other jobs that are less stressful.
- VHRanger 6y ago
  What an insular point of view. While devs can, artists and game designers don't have that bargaining power.
ekianjo 6y ago
Devs are always free to go indie and make it big for themselves. But it's a LOT harder than it sounds. So your point is?
- memonkey 6y ago
  I think the point is just that profits do not end up going to the people doing the majority of the work.
  - ekianjo 6y ago
    People doing the majority of the work would not be able to be paid to work for 2 - 3 years non stop on a project if nobody above them had sufficient funds in the first place. What do you expect?
    - 411111111111111 6y ago
      The issue is lowish wage with unhealthy workloads combined with the fact that the people doing the least amount of work get extremely high rewards. It just shows that the aristocracy is alive and doing well even in this modern world. Unsurprising to anyone that actually paid attention but there are a lot of developers who never realized that they're peasants, still. there are industries where we can get a decent wage as software developers however, so life is fine for most of us.
      - ekianjo 6y ago
        > The issue is lowish wage Lowish wage for game developers? I beg your pardon?
- ClumsyPilot 6y ago
  You seem to be making a universal argument that does not engage with the subject and justifies any kind of abusive employment plactices
memonkey 6y ago
You're getting a lot of hate for this comment but I think it's an important discussion. It isn't easy to "just go somewhere else" or "start your own thing" for a variety of reasons. The reality is that the majority of these game developers aren't getting job offers every day and don't have access to the kind of capital necessary to start a company. It's flippant to suggest that these developers can just find another job, because the other reality is that most of these developers would only be able to find jobs doing the same thing but under a different moniker. People in other places in this thread have produced some solutions, which I think is somewhere along the lines of organizing and unionizing, and I think that would help for bigger companies who are known to exploit these workers. Whatever the solution, history has shown that you cannot rely on a company's word that they won't do this anymore.
- pie_flavor 6y ago
  You perhaps miss the point of 'then start your own thing'. It is not meant as a realistic suggestion of where to take your career. It is meant to point out that the employer/employee relationship is one-directional for relative profit because it's the other direction in relative stability and investment. You are correct in your analysis that developers don't have access to the kind of capital necessary to start a company. That's the point - you can't predicate an argument on 'the actual workers only get a small fraction' when minus a stable job you would only be able to output a small fraction. Plus the development abstraction layer influences public perception as much as it does developer perception. https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/04/11/the-development-abstraction-layer-2/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/04/11/the-development-ab...
  - dathinab 6y ago
    But so do you miss the point as providing a working place which an employee can get by "start your own thing" does in no way imply that it's acceptable to abuse your employee just because they depend on you. In the end they get a reasonable wage for the normal work they do, but not if crunch is involved. Which, do to the large amount of stress and in turn health (physical+mental) and social risk it can involve doesn't seem reasonable for "any" amount of money (or at least any amount any person would be willing to pay ;=) ).

And billions of profits go to owners and shareholders, while developers crunch 80 hours/week for $2000-3000/month.

aaron-santos 6y ago

If they don't want to have their labor power exploited, why don't they work somewhere else?

fatbird 6y ago
Volunteering to be exploited doesn't absolve the exploiter of their wrongdoing.
Dylan16807 6y ago
It's very hard to change jobs.
approxim8ion 6y ago
It's the status quo in their industry.

Aqua 6y ago

Indeed, that's what companies do, earn money for their investors and owners. Sorry to be blunt, but that's how the world works and arguably talented developers can relatively easily find other jobs that are less stressful.

VHRanger 6y ago
What an insular point of view. While devs can, artists and game designers don't have that bargaining power.

ekianjo 6y ago

Devs are always free to go indie and make it big for themselves. But it's a LOT harder than it sounds. So your point is?

memonkey 6y ago
I think the point is just that profits do not end up going to the people doing the majority of the work.
- ekianjo 6y ago
  People doing the majority of the work would not be able to be paid to work for 2 - 3 years non stop on a project if nobody above them had sufficient funds in the first place. What do you expect?
  - 411111111111111 6y ago
    The issue is lowish wage with unhealthy workloads combined with the fact that the people doing the least amount of work get extremely high rewards. It just shows that the aristocracy is alive and doing well even in this modern world. Unsurprising to anyone that actually paid attention but there are a lot of developers who never realized that they're peasants, still. there are industries where we can get a decent wage as software developers however, so life is fine for most of us.
    - ekianjo 6y ago
      > The issue is lowish wage Lowish wage for game developers? I beg your pardon?
ClumsyPilot 6y ago
You seem to be making a universal argument that does not engage with the subject and justifies any kind of abusive employment plactices

memonkey 6y ago

You're getting a lot of hate for this comment but I think it's an important discussion. It isn't easy to "just go somewhere else" or "start your own thing" for a variety of reasons. The reality is that the majority of these game developers aren't getting job offers every day and don't have access to the kind of capital necessary to start a company. It's flippant to suggest that these developers can just find another job, because the other reality is that most of these developers would only be able to find jobs doing the same thing but under a different moniker. People in other places in this thread have produced some solutions, which I think is somewhere along the lines of organizing and unionizing, and I think that would help for bigger companies who are known to exploit these workers. Whatever the solution, history has shown that you cannot rely on a company's word that they won't do this anymore.

pie_flavor 6y ago
You perhaps miss the point of 'then start your own thing'. It is not meant as a realistic suggestion of where to take your career. It is meant to point out that the employer/employee relationship is one-directional for relative profit because it's the other direction in relative stability and investment. You are correct in your analysis that developers don't have access to the kind of capital necessary to start a company. That's the point - you can't predicate an argument on 'the actual workers only get a small fraction' when minus a stable job you would only be able to output a small fraction. Plus the development abstraction layer influences public perception as much as it does developer perception. https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/04/11/the-development-abstraction-layer-2/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/04/11/the-development-ab...
- dathinab 6y ago
  But so do you miss the point as providing a working place which an employee can get by "start your own thing" does in no way imply that it's acceptable to abuse your employee just because they depend on you. In the end they get a reasonable wage for the normal work they do, but not if crunch is involved. Which, do to the large amount of stress and in turn health (physical+mental) and social risk it can involve doesn't seem reasonable for "any" amount of money (or at least any amount any person would be willing to pay ;=) ).