7 ms·

Havana syndrome: 'directed' radio frequency likely cause of illness

67 points by tomduncalf 6y ago

MauranKilom 6y ago
I am strongly reminded of The Thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_%28listening_device%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_%28listening_device%...
- mhh__ 6y ago
  The book "Spycatcher" by Peter Wright documents fairly intensely the battle to both analyse and counteract the thing, and generally combat Soviet signals intelligence. The latter parts of the book are very interesting too, e.g. Wright questioned Anthony Blunt intensely. An insight into the game of psychological cat and mouse played between an aristocratic traitor and a working class intelligence officer cleaning up the mess. The veracity of his allegations about Roger Hollis is uncertain to this day, however the official line taken by MI5-approved sources is fundamentally flawed. I'm about 70% convinced, personally.
jonplackett 6y ago
Isn’t this what they thought it was ages ago? Still seems to be just as much of a mystery as when I first read about it.
aaron695 6y ago
It's be good to block people who believe stories like this but then think 5G conspiracies are crazy. Crazy people are interesting at least. Inconsistent people are just boring. It's CIA UFOs or Mass Hysteria. Chose one.
- scoot_718 6y ago
  ^ The comment history on this one is an interesting read.
- amcoastal 6y ago
  I'm genuinely curious if your comment is implying you disbelieve this or do believe in 5G conspiracies. If you disbelieve this then it would be great to hear your alternative theory, or at the very least your reasoning on why you don't believe this one.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - txmachinery 6y ago
    Maybe the commenter simply believes that it might not be crazy to exhibit concern for something that's known to be dangerous enough weaponise, is invisible, silent and being deployed in concentration all over the world including throughout your own neighbourhood and living complex. Sure, similar things could be said for electricity, and many other beneficial things - even water. But the same can also be said for things that were said to be safe - by the same sources; industry and media - and yet ended up causing great harm.
- mhh__ 6y ago
  The difference is that we know what power 5G is used at, think about it for more than a second. Your WiFi doesn't microwave you does it.
fasteo 6y ago
From the report "The most distinctive clinical aspects of the illnesses were the nature of the onset and the initial features: the sudden onset of a perceived loud sound, a sensation of intense pressure or vibration in the head, and pain in the ear or more diffusely in the head. Most individuals reported that the sound or these other sensations seemed to originate from a particular direction and were perceived only when the individual was in a specific physical location" The directed radio frequency hypothesis seems quite plausible.
txmachinery 6y ago
How bizarre, I'd been led to believe wireless energy was completely harmless; safe to use in the home, upon ones person daily and even distribute randomly in concentrated areas en masse without coordination. And further, I thought I was in the right that anyone claiming otherwise was paranoid and misinformed. Oh, look, this information is even coming from the same news services that previously told me it was completely safe. It's almost like the X-ray thing all over again. Or smoking. Or DDT. Or...
- scoot_718 6y ago
  How did you get to this site without some basic understanding of wireless technology?
- mhh__ 6y ago
  No, it's the scientists who are wrong! Wireless "energy" worldwide doesn't even get close to exposure limits, let alone be medically harmful in any measurable way.
- polotics 6y ago
  Are you serious? Do you know the difference between a milliwatt and a megawatt?
  - txmachinery 6y ago
    Yes, and do you know the difference between science and conjecture? Practice and theory? Done any research into people who are medically hyper-sensitive, sometimes at the milliwatt level, to RF energy? Is it possible that the cumulative effects of compounded milliwatts could potentially have harmful effects, that have yet to be sufficiently studied or understood? Maybe. I'm not at all suggesting there is a massive conspiracy to do whatever to everyone by deploying 5G or Wifi or whatever else. But I am saying that "move fast and break things" is an irresponsible modus operandi when the things might be us. The race for faster and make more money does NOT have a good history of safety for us, nor the planet. Proceed with caution, and value those who doubt. What have you got to lose? Your Netflix buffering 2 seconds faster? And you think I'm crazy?
baybal2 6y ago
An attack on country's ambassador, is an act of war...
- peteretep 6y ago
  This is being downvoted, but yes, absolutely. If you could prove that country x had pointed an energy weapon at your diplomats you’d have a pretty unassailable _casus belli_. Assuming the source of this is an unfriendly state, they’re playing with fire.
- onetimemanytime 6y ago
  Not to mention open season on their own diplos. I thought certain things, like psychical harm, was off the limits for spy agencies. The rest fair game. Makes zero sense that a rational country would do this. A large country risks tit-for-tat, a smaller risks the Pentagon testing hundreds of cruise missiles and bombs on them. Plus sanctions.
  - bigbubba 6y ago
    Maybe this is too cynical, but I think the only thing spy agencies consider off limits is getting caught. There are plenty of assassinations, torturings, etc that have been attributed to spy agencies. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods > The proposals called for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) or other U.S. government operatives to both stage and actually commit acts of terrorism against American military and civilian targets,[2] blaming them on the Cuban government, and using it to justify a war against Cuba. The possibilities detailed in the document included the possible assassination of Cuban immigrants, sinking boats of Cuban refugees on the high seas,[2] hijacking planes to be shot down or given the appearance of being shot down,[2] blowing up a U.S. ship, and orchestrating violent terrorism in U.S. cities.[3] The proposals were rejected by President John F. Kennedy.[4][5][6]
dariosalvi78 6y ago
I don't get it. What frequencies are we talking about and what power are capable to interact at this level with human bodies? And wouldn't these impulses interact with electronic equipment first and foremost?
- eurasiantiger 6y ago
  I would guess ultrasonics or low frequency radio waves that are projected from multiple directions to converge on a location where the individual waves amplify each other, likely generating a dissonant lower frequency that resonates with the sensory structures of the human inner ear.
  - willis936 6y ago
    Ultrasonic has a wavelength of 100 m - 1 km. Even if there were multiple sources, the peak area should be large. Also, neat frequencies are only made from mixing: a nonlinear operation. Most natural nonlinearities come from exciting resonant modes in objects in the path that absorb/retransmit.
    - guywhocodes 6y ago
      I think you are off about 3-4 order of magnitude. 30kHz is about 1cm in air.
      - willis936 6y ago
        In free space: lambda = c / f lambda = 3E8 [m/s] / 10E3 [1/s] = 3E5 [m] You’d be right for acoustic waves, but we’re not talking about those.
    - dariosalvi78 6y ago
      Maybe it was at hearing frequencies, but then it would have made electronic circuits emit sounds. I just can't figure this out in any reasonable way. There was another theory about ultrasound sounds used as rats repellent which would have created lower frequency sounds due to distortion. I find that one more credible.
anotheryou 6y ago
Would be interesting to know how much energy is used. Especially to debunk the wireless skeptics. I mean a tap on the back is something different than a baseball bat to the back and I assume that's a similar ratio at play here.
pjc50 6y ago
All this CIA money and nobody can find a spectrum analyser? Or just borrow some FCC guys and go listening? This reminds me of the Gatwick drone hysteria where nobody proved there was ever a drone.
- mhh__ 6y ago
  The likelihood that they don't have sigint equipment on site is fairly slim, anything about this that becomes public is because someone finds it useful. It's not impossible no one spotted it, but the kind of technology they had in the 50s and 60s alone makes me doubt it. It can take years and years for any information to become "definite" even if the evidence is already public. For example: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16614209 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16614209 the Russians sat on it for a while IIRC, then the British government took half a decade to acknowledge any funny business.
- thinkingemote 6y ago
  Re Gatwick, they arrested someone but didn't have enough evidence and they were let go rather publicly...but it's worth saying that the police had only weak evidence in that specific suspect. I don't think they released the evidence but I've been told some of it from someone close to it. To me it seemed weak on its own without a confession which is probably the reason why they arrested them. Some evidence doesn't mean no proof it's just not enough to be certain. It's also possible that there was no drone too, but the cops were all working as if there was.
  - tokai 6y ago
    > I don't think they released the evidence but I've been told some of it from someone close to it Do you have a cop friend that shares information on people released without charge?
    - thinkingemote 6y ago
      Nope, it could well be friend of a friend type of Chinese whispers thing. I can't remember the details now anyhow but I do remember my response as being a kind of "hmmmmm that's not really enough" Edits: reading the newspapers again it does feel like that it's the same stuff they reported on, nothing really extra or new or unreleased. I also note that the guardian published an article about the drones 5 days ago!
saucoidev 6y ago
Wouldnt it be trivial to detect? Trying to link the reported symptoms to this instead of actually measuring it seems like guesswork
- pharke 6y ago
  Perhaps not if it were a single, directed pulse. It's hard to detect one off events that happen at unpredictable times.
Giorgi 6y ago
But, but... But hacker news already told us years ago it was cicadas not directed frequency used by Russians on US diplomats.
- andybak 6y ago
  Stop ascribing sentience to a hetrogenous grouping of individuals. I'm sure if we went back to the threads you're referring to, we'd see a similar multiplicity of views to those displayed here. You make yourself sound like you have a victim complex.
  - chillwaves 6y ago
    Maybe they just have nothing interesting to say? But yeah, it's annoying on a lot of levels, one that you mentioned and secondly, this matter is far from settled. I would think sarcastic gloating would be bad form.
- chillwaves 6y ago
  I hate this trope on Reddit and I hate it even more here.
AntiImperialist 6y ago
From a linked article: Acoustic waves have never been shown to alter the brain’s white matter tracts, said Elisa Konofagou, a biomedical engineering professor at Columbia University who is not involved in the government’s investigation. “I would be very surprised,” Konofagou said, adding that ultrasound in the brain is used frequently in modern medicine. “We never see white matter tract problems.” It could be environmental and maybe other locals are affected as well. But since the U.S. does this to other countries all the time, they suspect foul play.
- luma 6y ago
  While acoustic energy has been floated as a possibility in prior reports, the article here is talking about RF.
sprash 6y ago
Finally the tinfoil hat comes to good use. But would it even help?
- davidy123 6y ago
  Apparent (can't find the reference now) it would attenuate the signals, make them stronger. You'd need to build a Faraday cage around yourself. Add some filtration and you're ready for the 21st century.
LatteLazy 6y ago
>In addition to directed radio frequency, Saturday’s report left open “the possibility of multiple causal factors including psychological and social factors”. The report remains inconclusive.
StringyBob 6y ago
I can possibly believe it, just because similar RFID using high power sources are known about, from the original ‘the thing’ by Theremin in 1945, to stuff exposed by Snowden like https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2014/01/ctx4000_nsa_exp.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2014/01/ctx4000_nsa_e... and https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2014/03/ragemaster_nsa.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2014/03/ragemaster_ns... However, any potential substance to this will always get lost behind the anti-5G tinfoil brigade, let alone propaganda and spycraft, so we’ll never know the truth.
- davidy123 6y ago
  Perhaps because of the tinfoil brigade (people want to put down any threads conclusively, associating them with lunacy is an effective strategy), I haven't been able to conclusively find out if directed or 'strong' radio signals can be simply noticed. I don't mean the signal is harmful, although an unexplained sense causes distraction and stress. I have read the WHO report, but at some point it kind of trails off. The reason I ask … is I have noticed a sense of pressure and other commonly called out symptoms when turning on new wireless gear. The first time I noticed this, before I was aware of specific concerns, was with a first gen wifi WAP. It still happens, but since I'm now aware of the supposed phenomenon other factors may be prevalent. Going further down the rabbit hole, different people are measurably sensitive to different things[1]. It could be that some people notice these type of linked low level sensations more. Then again, I haven't methodically gone further into the rabbit hole and just try to see if I can notice a new device being powered up in a blind test. The most likely cause is, I guess, background tension about powering up a new device (I lived though pre-21st century gear when things rarely "just worked") gets subconsciously amplified into noticing a background physical sensation that was already there (I have mild tinnitus, and in general the body is a dynamic smorgasbord of information). 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olfaction#Genetics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olfaction#Genetics
  - cesarb 6y ago
    > Then again, I haven't methodically gone further into the rabbit hole and just try to see if I can notice a new device being powered up in a blind test. There is a well known mechanism by which it might be possible for you to notice a new device being powered up: coil whine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coil_whine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coil_whine). It was very common in the CRT era (some people could instantly tell whenever a television set was powered on), but still persists today (for instance, it's a known problem on some laptop models).
boomboomsubban 6y ago
Here's a pair of twitter threads detailing why this seems like unsubstantiated nonsense, one posted after this was announced and one with access to the report. https://mobile.twitter.com/weinbergersa/status/1335096557079842817 https://mobile.twitter.com/weinbergersa/status/1335096557079... https://mobile.twitter.com/weinbergersa/status/1335304431756341248 https://mobile.twitter.com/weinbergersa/status/1335304431756... Just a ton of hot air blown for no purpose.
- arkitaip 6y ago
  The hypothesis that both China and Cuba used the same weapon targeting US diplomats seems incredibly unlikely.
  - candiodari 6y ago
    No but them both using the same physical principle seems reasonable, especially given that the US used this as well. The purpose is to store passive electronics (say, for eavesdropping) with a frequency specific RLC circuit providing power in the walls, when they're built. These cannot be found by spy detector gadgets because except at one frequency there's almost nothing to be found (there is a "passive cavity", which will not easily be identified as a spying device but can be used to eavesdrop, and more modern versions are the size of an rfid tag, 1/4th the size of a grain of rice is quite doable). They need remote power, however. So you need to direct something at them strong enough to power the circuit, which then sends the data back, and you need to do this from a few hundred meters. There's technical reasons (easy availability of generators) why you want(ed) to do this with microwaves. https://www.eetimes.com/eavesdropping-using-microwaves-addendum/ https://www.eetimes.com/eavesdropping-using-microwaves-adden...
    - tcgv 6y ago
      > These cannot be found by spy detector gadgets because except at one frequency there's almost nothing to be found Doesn't RF spectrum analyzers exist that could be employed for this purpose? This also reminded me of a paper I read about some years ago, seems like a great use case for it: - Drawing inspiration from nature to build a better radio: New radio chip mimics human ear, could enable universal radio [1] https://news.mit.edu/2009/bio-electronics-0603 https://news.mit.edu/2009/bio-electronics-0603
ipunchghosts 6y ago
I thought this was proven to be caused by insecticides they applied too close to humans. Whatever happened To that story?
- anew 6y ago
  Good question, the working theory that the pesticides being used nearby were acting as a cholinesterase inhibitor in the victims. Occam's razor pulls me towards this theory. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/10/191003111753.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/10/191003111753.h...

67 points by tomduncalf 6y ago

I am strongly reminded of The Thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_%28listening_device%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_%28listening_device%...

mhh__ 6y ago
The book "Spycatcher" by Peter Wright documents fairly intensely the battle to both analyse and counteract the thing, and generally combat Soviet signals intelligence. The latter parts of the book are very interesting too, e.g. Wright questioned Anthony Blunt intensely. An insight into the game of psychological cat and mouse played between an aristocratic traitor and a working class intelligence officer cleaning up the mess. The veracity of his allegations about Roger Hollis is uncertain to this day, however the official line taken by MI5-approved sources is fundamentally flawed. I'm about 70% convinced, personally.

jonplackett 6y ago

Isn’t this what they thought it was ages ago? Still seems to be just as much of a mystery as when I first read about it.

aaron695 6y ago

It's be good to block people who believe stories like this but then think 5G conspiracies are crazy. Crazy people are interesting at least. Inconsistent people are just boring. It's CIA UFOs or Mass Hysteria. Chose one.

scoot_718 6y ago
^ The comment history on this one is an interesting read.
amcoastal 6y ago
I'm genuinely curious if your comment is implying you disbelieve this or do believe in 5G conspiracies. If you disbelieve this then it would be great to hear your alternative theory, or at the very least your reasoning on why you don't believe this one.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- txmachinery 6y ago
  Maybe the commenter simply believes that it might not be crazy to exhibit concern for something that's known to be dangerous enough weaponise, is invisible, silent and being deployed in concentration all over the world including throughout your own neighbourhood and living complex. Sure, similar things could be said for electricity, and many other beneficial things - even water. But the same can also be said for things that were said to be safe - by the same sources; industry and media - and yet ended up causing great harm.
mhh__ 6y ago
The difference is that we know what power 5G is used at, think about it for more than a second. Your WiFi doesn't microwave you does it.

fasteo 6y ago

From the report "The most distinctive clinical aspects of the illnesses were the nature of the onset and the initial features: the sudden onset of a perceived loud sound, a sensation of intense pressure or vibration in the head, and pain in the ear or more diffusely in the head. Most individuals reported that the sound or these other sensations seemed to originate from a particular direction and were perceived only when the individual was in a specific physical location" The directed radio frequency hypothesis seems quite plausible.

txmachinery 6y ago

How bizarre, I'd been led to believe wireless energy was completely harmless; safe to use in the home, upon ones person daily and even distribute randomly in concentrated areas en masse without coordination. And further, I thought I was in the right that anyone claiming otherwise was paranoid and misinformed. Oh, look, this information is even coming from the same news services that previously told me it was completely safe. It's almost like the X-ray thing all over again. Or smoking. Or DDT. Or...

scoot_718 6y ago
How did you get to this site without some basic understanding of wireless technology?
mhh__ 6y ago
No, it's the scientists who are wrong! Wireless "energy" worldwide doesn't even get close to exposure limits, let alone be medically harmful in any measurable way.
polotics 6y ago
Are you serious? Do you know the difference between a milliwatt and a megawatt?
- txmachinery 6y ago
  Yes, and do you know the difference between science and conjecture? Practice and theory? Done any research into people who are medically hyper-sensitive, sometimes at the milliwatt level, to RF energy? Is it possible that the cumulative effects of compounded milliwatts could potentially have harmful effects, that have yet to be sufficiently studied or understood? Maybe. I'm not at all suggesting there is a massive conspiracy to do whatever to everyone by deploying 5G or Wifi or whatever else. But I am saying that "move fast and break things" is an irresponsible modus operandi when the things might be us. The race for faster and make more money does NOT have a good history of safety for us, nor the planet. Proceed with caution, and value those who doubt. What have you got to lose? Your Netflix buffering 2 seconds faster? And you think I'm crazy?

baybal2 6y ago

An attack on country's ambassador, is an act of war...

peteretep 6y ago
This is being downvoted, but yes, absolutely. If you could prove that country x had pointed an energy weapon at your diplomats you’d have a pretty unassailable _casus belli_. Assuming the source of this is an unfriendly state, they’re playing with fire.
onetimemanytime 6y ago
Not to mention open season on their own diplos. I thought certain things, like psychical harm, was off the limits for spy agencies. The rest fair game. Makes zero sense that a rational country would do this. A large country risks tit-for-tat, a smaller risks the Pentagon testing hundreds of cruise missiles and bombs on them. Plus sanctions.
- bigbubba 6y ago
  Maybe this is too cynical, but I think the only thing spy agencies consider off limits is getting caught. There are plenty of assassinations, torturings, etc that have been attributed to spy agencies. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods > The proposals called for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) or other U.S. government operatives to both stage and actually commit acts of terrorism against American military and civilian targets,[2] blaming them on the Cuban government, and using it to justify a war against Cuba. The possibilities detailed in the document included the possible assassination of Cuban immigrants, sinking boats of Cuban refugees on the high seas,[2] hijacking planes to be shot down or given the appearance of being shot down,[2] blowing up a U.S. ship, and orchestrating violent terrorism in U.S. cities.[3] The proposals were rejected by President John F. Kennedy.[4][5][6]

dariosalvi78 6y ago

I don't get it. What frequencies are we talking about and what power are capable to interact at this level with human bodies? And wouldn't these impulses interact with electronic equipment first and foremost?

eurasiantiger 6y ago
I would guess ultrasonics or low frequency radio waves that are projected from multiple directions to converge on a location where the individual waves amplify each other, likely generating a dissonant lower frequency that resonates with the sensory structures of the human inner ear.
- willis936 6y ago
  Ultrasonic has a wavelength of 100 m - 1 km. Even if there were multiple sources, the peak area should be large. Also, neat frequencies are only made from mixing: a nonlinear operation. Most natural nonlinearities come from exciting resonant modes in objects in the path that absorb/retransmit.
  - guywhocodes 6y ago
    I think you are off about 3-4 order of magnitude. 30kHz is about 1cm in air.
    - willis936 6y ago
      In free space: lambda = c / f lambda = 3E8 [m/s] / 10E3 [1/s] = 3E5 [m] You’d be right for acoustic waves, but we’re not talking about those.
  - dariosalvi78 6y ago
    Maybe it was at hearing frequencies, but then it would have made electronic circuits emit sounds. I just can't figure this out in any reasonable way. There was another theory about ultrasound sounds used as rats repellent which would have created lower frequency sounds due to distortion. I find that one more credible.

anotheryou 6y ago

Would be interesting to know how much energy is used. Especially to debunk the wireless skeptics. I mean a tap on the back is something different than a baseball bat to the back and I assume that's a similar ratio at play here.

pjc50 6y ago

All this CIA money and nobody can find a spectrum analyser? Or just borrow some FCC guys and go listening? This reminds me of the Gatwick drone hysteria where nobody proved there was ever a drone.

mhh__ 6y ago
The likelihood that they don't have sigint equipment on site is fairly slim, anything about this that becomes public is because someone finds it useful. It's not impossible no one spotted it, but the kind of technology they had in the 50s and 60s alone makes me doubt it. It can take years and years for any information to become "definite" even if the evidence is already public. For example: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16614209 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16614209 the Russians sat on it for a while IIRC, then the British government took half a decade to acknowledge any funny business.
thinkingemote 6y ago
Re Gatwick, they arrested someone but didn't have enough evidence and they were let go rather publicly...but it's worth saying that the police had only weak evidence in that specific suspect. I don't think they released the evidence but I've been told some of it from someone close to it. To me it seemed weak on its own without a confession which is probably the reason why they arrested them. Some evidence doesn't mean no proof it's just not enough to be certain. It's also possible that there was no drone too, but the cops were all working as if there was.
- tokai 6y ago
  > I don't think they released the evidence but I've been told some of it from someone close to it Do you have a cop friend that shares information on people released without charge?
  - thinkingemote 6y ago
    Nope, it could well be friend of a friend type of Chinese whispers thing. I can't remember the details now anyhow but I do remember my response as being a kind of "hmmmmm that's not really enough" Edits: reading the newspapers again it does feel like that it's the same stuff they reported on, nothing really extra or new or unreleased. I also note that the guardian published an article about the drones 5 days ago!

saucoidev 6y ago

Wouldnt it be trivial to detect? Trying to link the reported symptoms to this instead of actually measuring it seems like guesswork

pharke 6y ago
Perhaps not if it were a single, directed pulse. It's hard to detect one off events that happen at unpredictable times.

Giorgi 6y ago

But, but... But hacker news already told us years ago it was cicadas not directed frequency used by Russians on US diplomats.

andybak 6y ago
Stop ascribing sentience to a hetrogenous grouping of individuals. I'm sure if we went back to the threads you're referring to, we'd see a similar multiplicity of views to those displayed here. You make yourself sound like you have a victim complex.
- chillwaves 6y ago
  Maybe they just have nothing interesting to say? But yeah, it's annoying on a lot of levels, one that you mentioned and secondly, this matter is far from settled. I would think sarcastic gloating would be bad form.
chillwaves 6y ago
I hate this trope on Reddit and I hate it even more here.

AntiImperialist 6y ago

From a linked article: Acoustic waves have never been shown to alter the brain’s white matter tracts, said Elisa Konofagou, a biomedical engineering professor at Columbia University who is not involved in the government’s investigation. “I would be very surprised,” Konofagou said, adding that ultrasound in the brain is used frequently in modern medicine. “We never see white matter tract problems.” It could be environmental and maybe other locals are affected as well. But since the U.S. does this to other countries all the time, they suspect foul play.

luma 6y ago
While acoustic energy has been floated as a possibility in prior reports, the article here is talking about RF.

sprash 6y ago

Finally the tinfoil hat comes to good use. But would it even help?

davidy123 6y ago
Apparent (can't find the reference now) it would attenuate the signals, make them stronger. You'd need to build a Faraday cage around yourself. Add some filtration and you're ready for the 21st century.

LatteLazy 6y ago

>In addition to directed radio frequency, Saturday’s report left open “the possibility of multiple causal factors including psychological and social factors”. The report remains inconclusive.

StringyBob 6y ago

I can possibly believe it, just because similar RFID using high power sources are known about, from the original ‘the thing’ by Theremin in 1945, to stuff exposed by Snowden like https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2014/01/ctx4000_nsa_exp.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2014/01/ctx4000_nsa_e... and https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2014/03/ragemaster_nsa.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2014/03/ragemaster_ns... However, any potential substance to this will always get lost behind the anti-5G tinfoil brigade, let alone propaganda and spycraft, so we’ll never know the truth.

davidy123 6y ago
Perhaps because of the tinfoil brigade (people want to put down any threads conclusively, associating them with lunacy is an effective strategy), I haven't been able to conclusively find out if directed or 'strong' radio signals can be simply noticed. I don't mean the signal is harmful, although an unexplained sense causes distraction and stress. I have read the WHO report, but at some point it kind of trails off. The reason I ask … is I have noticed a sense of pressure and other commonly called out symptoms when turning on new wireless gear. The first time I noticed this, before I was aware of specific concerns, was with a first gen wifi WAP. It still happens, but since I'm now aware of the supposed phenomenon other factors may be prevalent. Going further down the rabbit hole, different people are measurably sensitive to different things[1]. It could be that some people notice these type of linked low level sensations more. Then again, I haven't methodically gone further into the rabbit hole and just try to see if I can notice a new device being powered up in a blind test. The most likely cause is, I guess, background tension about powering up a new device (I lived though pre-21st century gear when things rarely "just worked") gets subconsciously amplified into noticing a background physical sensation that was already there (I have mild tinnitus, and in general the body is a dynamic smorgasbord of information). 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olfaction#Genetics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olfaction#Genetics
- cesarb 6y ago
  > Then again, I haven't methodically gone further into the rabbit hole and just try to see if I can notice a new device being powered up in a blind test. There is a well known mechanism by which it might be possible for you to notice a new device being powered up: coil whine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coil_whine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coil_whine). It was very common in the CRT era (some people could instantly tell whenever a television set was powered on), but still persists today (for instance, it's a known problem on some laptop models).

boomboomsubban 6y ago

Here's a pair of twitter threads detailing why this seems like unsubstantiated nonsense, one posted after this was announced and one with access to the report. https://mobile.twitter.com/weinbergersa/status/1335096557079842817 https://mobile.twitter.com/weinbergersa/status/1335096557079... https://mobile.twitter.com/weinbergersa/status/1335304431756341248 https://mobile.twitter.com/weinbergersa/status/1335304431756... Just a ton of hot air blown for no purpose.

arkitaip 6y ago
The hypothesis that both China and Cuba used the same weapon targeting US diplomats seems incredibly unlikely.
- candiodari 6y ago
  No but them both using the same physical principle seems reasonable, especially given that the US used this as well. The purpose is to store passive electronics (say, for eavesdropping) with a frequency specific RLC circuit providing power in the walls, when they're built. These cannot be found by spy detector gadgets because except at one frequency there's almost nothing to be found (there is a "passive cavity", which will not easily be identified as a spying device but can be used to eavesdrop, and more modern versions are the size of an rfid tag, 1/4th the size of a grain of rice is quite doable). They need remote power, however. So you need to direct something at them strong enough to power the circuit, which then sends the data back, and you need to do this from a few hundred meters. There's technical reasons (easy availability of generators) why you want(ed) to do this with microwaves. https://www.eetimes.com/eavesdropping-using-microwaves-addendum/ https://www.eetimes.com/eavesdropping-using-microwaves-adden...
  - tcgv 6y ago
    > These cannot be found by spy detector gadgets because except at one frequency there's almost nothing to be found Doesn't RF spectrum analyzers exist that could be employed for this purpose? This also reminded me of a paper I read about some years ago, seems like a great use case for it: - Drawing inspiration from nature to build a better radio: New radio chip mimics human ear, could enable universal radio [1] https://news.mit.edu/2009/bio-electronics-0603 https://news.mit.edu/2009/bio-electronics-0603

ipunchghosts 6y ago

I thought this was proven to be caused by insecticides they applied too close to humans. Whatever happened To that story?

anew 6y ago
Good question, the working theory that the pesticides being used nearby were acting as a cholinesterase inhibitor in the victims. Occam's razor pulls me towards this theory. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/10/191003111753.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/10/191003111753.h...