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There was little to no damage from VW's cheating. Don't confuse the silly state-imposed fines with "value" of the researchers' findings.

by Proven 6y ago

DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
> There was little to no damage from VW's cheating. I think your post is downvoted because it stakes a contrarian position, but doesn't provide supporting arguments / evidence.
mensetmanusman 6y ago
I believe less pollution is valuable.
wpietri 6y ago
Aside, of course, from the excess deaths and lowered quality of life caused by increased pollution. MIT researches estimated 1200 early deaths caused by VW's cheating: https://news.mit.edu/2017/volkswagen-emissions-premature-deaths-europe-0303 https://news.mit.edu/2017/volkswagen-emissions-premature-dea...
- throwaway201103 6y ago
  Why was it OK a few years earlier when the emissions regulations were more permissive? Were the people killed by those emissions not worthy for some reason? Why were the new emissions targets the "right" ones? Why not make them half again and save even more lives? The answer is that they are numbers pulled out of the ass of some CARB or EPA bureaucrat. In reality it's impossible to say that "1200 early deaths" were caused by VW emissions. It's statistical smoke and mirrors and doesn't even show up as a blip in the normal variation of total mortality of any given year. How many early deaths were caused by California's refusal to allow or perform proper forest manangement, resulting in this year's devastating wildfires and the pollution they caused? Sorry for the whataboutism. Deaths are deaths.
  - yaacov 6y ago
    > Why was it OK a few years earlier when the emissions regulations were more permissive? Were the people killed by those emissions not worthy for some reason? Of course not. What changed is that in addition to being wrong, what VW did after the laws were changed was also illegal. > Why were the new emissions targets the "right" ones? Why not make them half again and save even more lives? Eventually they will, I hope. Change to a carbon-neutral and clean-air future takes time, and we’re in a transition period right now. > In reality it's impossible to say that "1200 early deaths" were caused by VW emissions. I mean sure, 1200 is an estimate based on assumptions you could probably quibble with. We know air pollution kills people and we know VW’s cheating significantly increased air pollution. While acknowledging uncertainty, its still important to reason about how many people VW killed. > doesn't even show up as a blip in the normal variation of total mortality of any given year. This argument proves too much, by this reasoning nothing that kills less than 100k people/year is real. > How many early deaths were caused by California's refusal to allow or perform proper forest manangement? A lot!! And that’s really bad! But it’s an entirely different problem from this one.
  - pastage 6y ago
    Air polution is one of the top causes of deaths, this is easily and thoroughly researched, effects are not instant but they are measureable in stats on a local level. This is really easy to look up if you want. The reason why we talk about it so little is that so many own cars and that it's not popular to say that a carowner kills a freigthenly high fraction of a person each year. Whataboutism will always ensue.
  - imtringued 6y ago
    >How many early deaths were caused by California's refusal to allow or perform proper forest manangement, resulting in this year's devastating wildfires and the pollution they caused? Sorry for the whataboutism. Deaths are deaths. Fixing a misbehaving car manufacturer is easier than fixing decades of forest mismanagement. Once the VW thing is over they can concentrate on that (unfortunately they still don't). The forest fire problems are also unique to California. Car emissions are a problem everywhere.
  - wpietri 6y ago

There was little to no damage from VW's cheating. Don't confuse the silly state-imposed fines with "value" of the researchers' findings.

by Proven 6y ago

There was little to no damage from VW's cheating. Don't confuse the silly state-imposed fines with "value" of the researchers' findings.

DoofusOfDeath 6y ago

> There was little to no damage from VW's cheating. I think your post is downvoted because it stakes a contrarian position, but doesn't provide supporting arguments / evidence.

mensetmanusman 6y ago

I believe less pollution is valuable.

wpietri 6y ago

Aside, of course, from the excess deaths and lowered quality of life caused by increased pollution. MIT researches estimated 1200 early deaths caused by VW's cheating: https://news.mit.edu/2017/volkswagen-emissions-premature-deaths-europe-0303 https://news.mit.edu/2017/volkswagen-emissions-premature-dea...

throwaway201103 6y ago
Why was it OK a few years earlier when the emissions regulations were more permissive? Were the people killed by those emissions not worthy for some reason? Why were the new emissions targets the "right" ones? Why not make them half again and save even more lives? The answer is that they are numbers pulled out of the ass of some CARB or EPA bureaucrat. In reality it's impossible to say that "1200 early deaths" were caused by VW emissions. It's statistical smoke and mirrors and doesn't even show up as a blip in the normal variation of total mortality of any given year. How many early deaths were caused by California's refusal to allow or perform proper forest manangement, resulting in this year's devastating wildfires and the pollution they caused? Sorry for the whataboutism. Deaths are deaths.
- yaacov 6y ago
  > Why was it OK a few years earlier when the emissions regulations were more permissive? Were the people killed by those emissions not worthy for some reason? Of course not. What changed is that in addition to being wrong, what VW did after the laws were changed was also illegal. > Why were the new emissions targets the "right" ones? Why not make them half again and save even more lives? Eventually they will, I hope. Change to a carbon-neutral and clean-air future takes time, and we’re in a transition period right now. > In reality it's impossible to say that "1200 early deaths" were caused by VW emissions. I mean sure, 1200 is an estimate based on assumptions you could probably quibble with. We know air pollution kills people and we know VW’s cheating significantly increased air pollution. While acknowledging uncertainty, its still important to reason about how many people VW killed. > doesn't even show up as a blip in the normal variation of total mortality of any given year. This argument proves too much, by this reasoning nothing that kills less than 100k people/year is real. > How many early deaths were caused by California's refusal to allow or perform proper forest manangement? A lot!! And that’s really bad! But it’s an entirely different problem from this one.
- pastage 6y ago
  Air polution is one of the top causes of deaths, this is easily and thoroughly researched, effects are not instant but they are measureable in stats on a local level. This is really easy to look up if you want. The reason why we talk about it so little is that so many own cars and that it's not popular to say that a carowner kills a freigthenly high fraction of a person each year. Whataboutism will always ensue.
- imtringued 6y ago
  >How many early deaths were caused by California's refusal to allow or perform proper forest manangement, resulting in this year's devastating wildfires and the pollution they caused? Sorry for the whataboutism. Deaths are deaths. Fixing a misbehaving car manufacturer is easier than fixing decades of forest mismanagement. Once the VW thing is over they can concentrate on that (unfortunately they still don't). The forest fire problems are also unique to California. Car emissions are a problem everywhere.
- wpietri 6y ago