13 ms·

Google readies its own chip for future Pixels, Chromebooks

121 points by igravious 6y ago

HenryKissinger 6y ago
Apple: releases the M1 Silicon Google: Write that down! Write that down!
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- qz2 6y ago
  It’ll be more Google: “hold my beer”
  - dylan604 6y ago
    which usually doesn't end well for the person saying it. are you suggesting Google will belly flop into the pool of custom chips?
    - jburky 6y ago
      Possibly just like the over hyped release of their pixel... I was very disappointed
    - qz2 6y ago
      Yes. They don’t think hard enough before they do things or put enough care into doing it. That’s apparent in their product lineup, support and reliability.
    - happymellon 6y ago
      Nah, the first version will be great but not revolutionary. After a few iteration it will get really great to the point that it is competitive with Apple and with even Apple borrowing ideas back. But then they'll lose focus and after a couple more iterations it will get abandoned and left for 5 years before it is axed. And 3 different chips will pop up in its place which are similar but incompatible.
      - qz2 6y ago
        Nailed it
- kevincox 6y ago
  If they are getting working prototypes now this must have been in the pipeline for multiple years.
saagarjha 6y ago
Is this going to be a custom core design, or a repackaging of a Cortex-A77?
tener 6y ago
While it looks like copying Apple, it doesn't necessarily mean this is a bad idea. Google did produce TPUs so this isn't theirs first rodeo. Also Apple is using ARM so whatever are their improvements, others can potentially match. Of course the execution matters, but if the current trend continues it may well be an existential threat to Android and by extension, Google.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  > Also Apple is using ARM so whatever are their improvements, others can potentially match. Apple uses the ARM ISA but entirely custom cores, so this is like saying "AMD is using x86_64, so Intel can match them".
  - freeone3000 6y ago
    A year ago, the hypothetical would have been "Intel is using x86_64, so AMD can match them". The G3 and G4 chips were much faster in their time than comparable Pentiums, as well. The M1 chip is faster, currently, but it's not invincible.
    - rusticpenn 6y ago
      Its not only about the speed but the power draw at those speeds.
      - chungus_khan 6y ago
        G3 and G4 chips also had a fair lead there at the time. At the time iBooks were getting twice the battery life of most x86 competitors at least.
- mankyd 6y ago
  Also, presumably this whole process didn't start this month. Developing a chip takes time. This article makes it sound as though this is well on its way to production.
tyingq 6y ago
Probably worth noting the story is from April. Another story from April with a few more details: https://www.xda-developers.com/google-is-working-on-its-own-chip-for-pixel-phones-and-chromebooks/ https://www.xda-developers.com/google-is-working-on-its-own-...
- igravious 6y ago
  I searched HN; nobody had submitted this story from any source to the best of my knowledge. First I heard about this Project Whitechapel was today when Dave2d mentioned it in a video about upcoming next gen (2021) smartphones, props to Dave: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7HxYOaFr88 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7HxYOaFr88 – couldn't believe it hadn't been discussed here.
  - partingshots 6y ago
    I tried doing some light Googling on Project Whitechapel, but wasn’t able to find much more in detail. Do you have anything else you can link in regards to the work they’re doing in building out their own chips? Would love to read more about this.
oyra 6y ago
this big advertisement company has no business developing chips. With all due respect to engineers working on those, one little tweak in search result ranking or another smart sneaking behind unaware user earn them lot more than any new chip however good will ever. from pure business perspective, there's no a single one real intensive to develop such chips. Also, they have failed to develop far less complex chips in the past, despite very competent teams. There will be a failure this time around too.
free2OSS 6y ago
I'd be shocked if this ever made it to production. I'd be more shocked if they did this for 2 generations of pixels. The problem with vertical integration is how fast you can be obsolete by competitors. You only need 1 competitor to make a better product and your internal Engineers are going to be begging for it. Unlike Apple customers, the rest of the population is sensitive to performance and cost. If Google can't compete people move on. Edit- Samsung is not a flagship company, their high pricing has nothing to do with performance. At best they are mid tier.
- rovr138 6y ago
  The problem I see is, will they support it? Or will they send it to the graveyard?
- Zenst 6y ago
  Maybe a logical progression for the TPU chips and having on-board cores to manage the TPU side of things for performance does make sense and if they can scale this for other products, then why not. Given the whole mobile CPU performance caught up and power usage become the biggest saving area on the table PR financially as well as direct financial savings. Then I'd hazard a educated stab that maybe what is afoot here. However it pans, the Linux kernel is sure going to see some nice ARM optimisations over the comming years out of all this drive.
- kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
  Apple has a first class in house design team. Google is subbing out so they don't get any long term benefit from an experienced employee base and they have to share a slice of the extra profit with someone else in addition to paying larger license fees to ARM than Apple needs to. This is probably just a bow shot to Qualcomm to get a better deal out of them the same way PC vendors threaten to switch to AMD to squeeze Intel.
  - cogman10 6y ago
    I think that's very much the case. Qualcomm has been price gouging while limiting features from each new release (for example, the new 888 doesn't have AV1 decode support... WTF!) This is google forcing them to up their game if they want to keep playing. Will google keep doing this? Probably not (IMO). Rather, it's likely just a demonstration of "Hey, we don't need you, so straighten up!" That being said, if Qualcomm ignores them (since Pixel isn't a major player in the phone market) google may keep producing their own chips. Another interesting aspect here is that Google may decide that they don't want to keep paying for the ARM licenses. This is an avenue for them to start getting RISC-V as a first class Android citizen.
ogre_codes 6y ago
Why don't we see more chips on Samsung's silicon? Samsung doesn't even ship their own phones to the US with Samsung silicon. Is this a patent issue with the modems?
- wmf 6y ago
  Samsung's Exynos chips have historically been slower or less power-efficient than Qualcomm Snapdragon.
- xxpor 6y ago
  Well, Exynos SoCs are widely panned as garbage. People in Europe regularly import HK versions of phones to get the Qualcomm version. Second, my understanding is they don't have CDMA support, which is still relevant in the US. So they either use Snapdragons, or pay Qualcomm for the patents and then go make a new SoC. I guess it's easier to just pay Qualcomm for the Snapdragons.
  - josh3736 6y ago
    > my understanding is they don't have CDMA support, which is still relevant in the US. Not for long. Verizon is shutting down their CDMA network at the end of the month. But yeah, Exynos is garbage.
    - xxpor 6y ago
      Wow, that's wild. My first cell phone had brand-new (at the time) EVDO support. It was awesome, you could download songs, use WAP, etc. I can't believe I've actually seen the beginning and end of a full generation :) I also still can't believe the iPhone launched without 3G support!
      - joecool1029 6y ago
        >I also still can't believe the iPhone launched without 3G support! The original iPhone also shipped without CDMA support. (no 1X, was GSM-only)
jl2718 6y ago
It’s not just about copying Apple or reducing costs. It’s about the benefit of SoC integration, and Chrome/Android is unique enough in this regard to get a lot of benefit versus discrete components.
- the-dude 6y ago
  So we are finally getting these Java-processors?
  - monocasa 6y ago
    Android doesn't run JVM bytecode, so no.
syntaxing 6y ago
I’m kind of curious if Google still use Chisel to design their CPU like their TPUs.
- borramakot 6y ago
  Are are the TPUs in Chisel? I thought only a subset, like edge, were in Chisel?
  - syntaxing 6y ago
    Hmm, that is a good point. I know the Coral stuff is made from Chisel but I am not entirely sure if their cloud TPUs are
antpls 6y ago
Google AI team posted a blog post in April 2020 about chip design using reinforcement learning : https://ai.googleblog.com/2020/04/chip-design-with-deep-reinforcement.html?m=1 https://ai.googleblog.com/2020/04/chip-design-with-deep-rein...
Causality1 6y ago
Frankly I'd be happy if they stopped using those garbage POLED panels from LG. Three years and every single one of them has a green tint to the bottom half of the screen.
650REDHAIR 6y ago
Bets on when it’s abandoned and left for the graveyard?
aitchnyu 6y ago
What do AI processors do and what will they be used for? Is it just to unlock by face, listen to voice, enhance photos?
rcarmo 6y ago
I have to wonder what would be the outcome, given what happened to their previous hardware efforts. I just shared this in a private chat, and the first reply was "will they also stop working after 18 months?"

121 points by igravious 6y ago

HenryKissinger 6y ago

Apple: releases the M1 Silicon Google: Write that down! Write that down!

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
qz2 6y ago
It’ll be more Google: “hold my beer”
- dylan604 6y ago
  which usually doesn't end well for the person saying it. are you suggesting Google will belly flop into the pool of custom chips?
  - jburky 6y ago
    Possibly just like the over hyped release of their pixel... I was very disappointed
  - qz2 6y ago
    Yes. They don’t think hard enough before they do things or put enough care into doing it. That’s apparent in their product lineup, support and reliability.
  - happymellon 6y ago
    Nah, the first version will be great but not revolutionary. After a few iteration it will get really great to the point that it is competitive with Apple and with even Apple borrowing ideas back. But then they'll lose focus and after a couple more iterations it will get abandoned and left for 5 years before it is axed. And 3 different chips will pop up in its place which are similar but incompatible.
    - qz2 6y ago
      Nailed it
kevincox 6y ago
If they are getting working prototypes now this must have been in the pipeline for multiple years.

saagarjha 6y ago

Is this going to be a custom core design, or a repackaging of a Cortex-A77?

tener 6y ago

While it looks like copying Apple, it doesn't necessarily mean this is a bad idea. Google did produce TPUs so this isn't theirs first rodeo. Also Apple is using ARM so whatever are their improvements, others can potentially match. Of course the execution matters, but if the current trend continues it may well be an existential threat to Android and by extension, Google.

saagarjha 6y ago
> Also Apple is using ARM so whatever are their improvements, others can potentially match. Apple uses the ARM ISA but entirely custom cores, so this is like saying "AMD is using x86_64, so Intel can match them".
- freeone3000 6y ago
  A year ago, the hypothetical would have been "Intel is using x86_64, so AMD can match them". The G3 and G4 chips were much faster in their time than comparable Pentiums, as well. The M1 chip is faster, currently, but it's not invincible.
  - rusticpenn 6y ago
    Its not only about the speed but the power draw at those speeds.
    - chungus_khan 6y ago
      G3 and G4 chips also had a fair lead there at the time. At the time iBooks were getting twice the battery life of most x86 competitors at least.
mankyd 6y ago
Also, presumably this whole process didn't start this month. Developing a chip takes time. This article makes it sound as though this is well on its way to production.

tyingq 6y ago

Probably worth noting the story is from April. Another story from April with a few more details: https://www.xda-developers.com/google-is-working-on-its-own-chip-for-pixel-phones-and-chromebooks/ https://www.xda-developers.com/google-is-working-on-its-own-...

igravious 6y ago
I searched HN; nobody had submitted this story from any source to the best of my knowledge. First I heard about this Project Whitechapel was today when Dave2d mentioned it in a video about upcoming next gen (2021) smartphones, props to Dave: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7HxYOaFr88 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7HxYOaFr88 – couldn't believe it hadn't been discussed here.
- partingshots 6y ago
  I tried doing some light Googling on Project Whitechapel, but wasn’t able to find much more in detail. Do you have anything else you can link in regards to the work they’re doing in building out their own chips? Would love to read more about this.

oyra 6y ago

this big advertisement company has no business developing chips. With all due respect to engineers working on those, one little tweak in search result ranking or another smart sneaking behind unaware user earn them lot more than any new chip however good will ever. from pure business perspective, there's no a single one real intensive to develop such chips. Also, they have failed to develop far less complex chips in the past, despite very competent teams. There will be a failure this time around too.

free2OSS 6y ago

I'd be shocked if this ever made it to production. I'd be more shocked if they did this for 2 generations of pixels. The problem with vertical integration is how fast you can be obsolete by competitors. You only need 1 competitor to make a better product and your internal Engineers are going to be begging for it. Unlike Apple customers, the rest of the population is sensitive to performance and cost. If Google can't compete people move on. Edit- Samsung is not a flagship company, their high pricing has nothing to do with performance. At best they are mid tier.

rovr138 6y ago
The problem I see is, will they support it? Or will they send it to the graveyard?
Zenst 6y ago
Maybe a logical progression for the TPU chips and having on-board cores to manage the TPU side of things for performance does make sense and if they can scale this for other products, then why not. Given the whole mobile CPU performance caught up and power usage become the biggest saving area on the table PR financially as well as direct financial savings. Then I'd hazard a educated stab that maybe what is afoot here. However it pans, the Linux kernel is sure going to see some nice ARM optimisations over the comming years out of all this drive.
kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
Apple has a first class in house design team. Google is subbing out so they don't get any long term benefit from an experienced employee base and they have to share a slice of the extra profit with someone else in addition to paying larger license fees to ARM than Apple needs to. This is probably just a bow shot to Qualcomm to get a better deal out of them the same way PC vendors threaten to switch to AMD to squeeze Intel.
- cogman10 6y ago
  I think that's very much the case. Qualcomm has been price gouging while limiting features from each new release (for example, the new 888 doesn't have AV1 decode support... WTF!) This is google forcing them to up their game if they want to keep playing. Will google keep doing this? Probably not (IMO). Rather, it's likely just a demonstration of "Hey, we don't need you, so straighten up!" That being said, if Qualcomm ignores them (since Pixel isn't a major player in the phone market) google may keep producing their own chips. Another interesting aspect here is that Google may decide that they don't want to keep paying for the ARM licenses. This is an avenue for them to start getting RISC-V as a first class Android citizen.

ogre_codes 6y ago

Why don't we see more chips on Samsung's silicon? Samsung doesn't even ship their own phones to the US with Samsung silicon. Is this a patent issue with the modems?

wmf 6y ago
Samsung's Exynos chips have historically been slower or less power-efficient than Qualcomm Snapdragon.
xxpor 6y ago
Well, Exynos SoCs are widely panned as garbage. People in Europe regularly import HK versions of phones to get the Qualcomm version. Second, my understanding is they don't have CDMA support, which is still relevant in the US. So they either use Snapdragons, or pay Qualcomm for the patents and then go make a new SoC. I guess it's easier to just pay Qualcomm for the Snapdragons.
- josh3736 6y ago
  > my understanding is they don't have CDMA support, which is still relevant in the US. Not for long. Verizon is shutting down their CDMA network at the end of the month. But yeah, Exynos is garbage.
  - xxpor 6y ago
    Wow, that's wild. My first cell phone had brand-new (at the time) EVDO support. It was awesome, you could download songs, use WAP, etc. I can't believe I've actually seen the beginning and end of a full generation :) I also still can't believe the iPhone launched without 3G support!
    - joecool1029 6y ago
      >I also still can't believe the iPhone launched without 3G support! The original iPhone also shipped without CDMA support. (no 1X, was GSM-only)

jl2718 6y ago

It’s not just about copying Apple or reducing costs. It’s about the benefit of SoC integration, and Chrome/Android is unique enough in this regard to get a lot of benefit versus discrete components.

the-dude 6y ago
So we are finally getting these Java-processors?
- monocasa 6y ago
  Android doesn't run JVM bytecode, so no.

syntaxing 6y ago

I’m kind of curious if Google still use Chisel to design their CPU like their TPUs.

borramakot 6y ago
Are are the TPUs in Chisel? I thought only a subset, like edge, were in Chisel?
- syntaxing 6y ago
  Hmm, that is a good point. I know the Coral stuff is made from Chisel but I am not entirely sure if their cloud TPUs are

antpls 6y ago

Google AI team posted a blog post in April 2020 about chip design using reinforcement learning : https://ai.googleblog.com/2020/04/chip-design-with-deep-reinforcement.html?m=1 https://ai.googleblog.com/2020/04/chip-design-with-deep-rein...

Causality1 6y ago

Frankly I'd be happy if they stopped using those garbage POLED panels from LG. Three years and every single one of them has a green tint to the bottom half of the screen.

650REDHAIR 6y ago

Bets on when it’s abandoned and left for the graveyard?

aitchnyu 6y ago

What do AI processors do and what will they be used for? Is it just to unlock by face, listen to voice, enhance photos?

rcarmo 6y ago

I have to wonder what would be the outcome, given what happened to their previous hardware efforts. I just shared this in a private chat, and the first reply was "will they also stop working after 18 months?"