3 ms·

And you probably get paid 1/3 to 1/2 of what a developer in the US can make. The reality of the world is that if you're the lead developer for some product you

by treis 6y ago

And you probably get paid 1/3 to 1/2 of what a developer in the US can make. The reality of the world is that if you're the lead developer for some product you will have times that you need to work off hours. Like if production is down how can you say: "My 40 hours is up this week, I'll look at it on Monday". It's a balance. You shouldn't routinely be working a ton of nights and weekends. But sometimes shit hits the fan at inconvenient hours and you need to respond. If not, you have to have routine 24/7 coverage which gets really expensive really fast ultimately leading to lower salaries for developers.

Symbiote 6y ago
Is the American developer happier in life than the Finn? Do they have time to enjoy all that extra money? The 40 hours is averaged over several weeks (normally). You can have an extra 3 hours, but leave work at lunchtime the next day.
- treis 6y ago
  The American developer can retire in 1/3 to 1/2 the time of the Finn. And yes, I'd say working a bit more for that is an obvious yes.
  - gorbachev 6y ago
    It depends. You can't, if: 1. you have a chronic illness that requires a good healthcare plan to be treated affordably 2. you have a large family 3. your student debt is larger than average 4. you have a large mortgage 5. your have other financial liabilities you can't afford to handle without good paying job 6. you have no retirement savings or they are insufficient Items 1, 2, 3 and 6 are non-issues in Scandinavian countries.
  - bvcvbuiy 6y ago
    The obsession of American developers with retirement tells a lot about what they think about their jobs.
    - treis 6y ago
      As if 95% of Europeans wouldn't quit their job tomorrow if they won the lottery.
      - bonzini 6y ago
        Winning the lottery is not the same thing as not having a work-life balance for 30 years (I don't know anyone who retired before 55).
  - drstewart 6y ago
    >The obsession of American developers with retirement tells a lot about what they think about their jobs. Funny how Europeans are crowing in this thread about how Americans need unions for better pay, but when Americans say they have better pay Europeans just say Americans are obsessed with money. The obsession with Americans tells a lot about what Europeans think of their system
    - lostlogin 6y ago
      I think you have replied to the wrong comment.
    - bvcvbuiy 6y ago
      The people who mention unions have in mind better rights for employees not better pay (no one seriously thinks SV developers need better salaries).
  - efdee 6y ago
    Are you saying American developers retire around 40-50yo?
colejohnson66 6y ago
It is a balance. But the point GP is making (it seems) is that if “shit [does] hit the fan,” you should be paid overtime for it, not have it be part of your job. It’s a cultural difference really.
- treis 6y ago
  It doesn't really work because the incentives become misaligned. It becomes a good thing for workers to have things go wrong and for them to be inefficient with their time. Organizations end up much less flexible because they then don't trust their workers not to milk them. Ultimately it changes from paying someone to get a job done to paying them for hours worked. Anyone that's hired a plumber knows that you get far faster and efficient work in the first situation.
  - Hamuko 6y ago
    I get full pay for a sick day and I don't have a cap on sick days. And yet, I have not called in sick in the last two years. Just because people could do something, doesn't mean that they will do it. The people at our company do not spend all of their time making the system more unreliable so that they'd be paid more to be on call. Hell, if you asked the developers, most of them would probably love to spend more time making the system more reliable, but the bosses usually want developers to add more features.
    - scarby2 6y ago
      This! I hate the perverse incentive that many americans try to push about sick leave, overtime etc. The truth of the matter is that most people actually want to do their job. Do people abuse sick leave - yes, but it is certainly the minority of sick days taken. In fact leave is undervalued as a concept by most US employers/employees, various studies have found that workers who take more vacation and work less hours are healthier and more productive. Some progressive companies are starting to learn from this (I spoke to a travel technology company a while ago who will fund you to take a 2 week trip out of the country every year).
ytwySXpMbS 6y ago
Well yes, everything is hunky dory if you work in an atypically well paid industry. It’s still a problem for the rest of the country, I imagine teachers aren’t too happy about unpaid overtime for instance.
theshrike79 6y ago
If shit hits the fan, the company should be prepared to pay for it. If not, then clearly the shit hasn't actually hit any fans and I can keep relaxing on my free time. Many times companies and clients like to pretend there is an emergency that needs extra hours, but if there is a price tag attached, the urgency disappears really fast. Overtime is a mutual contract in Finland. The employee can't just decide to do overtime for extra pay (usually 150-200% hourly rate), neither can the company order an employee to do overtime hours. Both agree how many hours are needed and what should be accomplished by working extra hours. I can _voluntarily_ work longer hours and "bank" those, I'm also free to use my banked hours at a time of my choosing or be compensated for those hours with money. For example I can do 9 hours from monday to thursday and leave at noon on friday for a nice long afternoon/evening with my family.
container 6y ago
I wouldn't start too much speculation around a comment that started with 'probably'. But in any case, I'm also a Finn, and my contract also refers to that agreement. Still, I don't think I even know anyone who just drops what they're doing when their hours are up for the day or the week. It seems that everyone's working around the clock, even on weekends and holidays. And just like you would expect by now, people take pride in it and boast about it too. Sure, that's pathological, but I really can't even imagine working 9 to 5 and then disconnecting for the rest of the time, union or not. I think you're considered exceptional in Finnish IT if you can do that.
ingvul 6y ago
> Like if production is down how can you say: "My 40 hours is up this week, I'll look at it on Monday". It depends. If it's the first time production is down and I'm already off, I fix the issue. Once it's fixed I'll tell my manager: "we need on-call people. Please don't consider me for that position because I value more my free-time than money. Thanks". The second time production is down, I won't fix it. If they fire me because I don't do on-call, then again it depends. I would revisit my contract and if it doesn't say anything about being on-call I would point that out. In any case, I would start to look for a new job asap.
IanCal 6y ago
> Like if production is down how can you say: "My 40 hours is up this week, I'll look at it on Monday" "Tell whoever is on call to deal with it"
davidgay 6y ago
> It's a balance. You shouldn't routinely be working a ton of nights and weekends. But sometimes shit hits the fan at inconvenient hours and you need to respond. If not, you have to have routine 24/7 coverage which gets really expensive really fast ultimately leading to lower salaries for developers. The not-uncommon answer to this is an oncall rotation, where you are paid at some fraction of your full-time salary, to respond to such problems. The fraction likely works out better than 'overtime' pay, as it's for all the time you are oncall, not just when some issue occurs.
- ciceryadam 6y ago
  Yup exactly, if I'm on emergency calls, I get payed 10% of my base hourly to be available, online in 15minutes and ready to solve issues. As soon as I get a call during this time, it's overtime (125% of hourly pay, bonuses for weekend/night calls). If I'm on holiday I'm out for the company, but I'm there for colleagues. With this system did daily rotations and weekly rotations, both lengths have their pros and cons.
Frondo 6y ago
> Like if production is down how can you say... Come on, man, it's not your company and if they're not paying you for that time, it's not your responsibility. Volunteering your time for someone else's business? Is this really what you want to do with your life?
- colejohnson66 6y ago
  The unfortunate reality is that most people don’t have a choice. If they refuse the work, they’re fired because it’ll be easy to find someone who will do the work even during off-hours.
908B64B197 6y ago
At 1/2 1/3 the pay, I can't really see why a dev would work more than 30 hours a week. Especially if there's no stock comp.
- bonzini 6y ago
  Paid time off, paid paternity leave, decent retirement paid by the employer, world class single payer healthcare and paid sick days, no at-will work, affordable childcare, don't have to set up a college fund for my sons' education when they're born, etc. etc.

by treis 6y ago

Symbiote 6y ago

Is the American developer happier in life than the Finn? Do they have time to enjoy all that extra money? The 40 hours is averaged over several weeks (normally). You can have an extra 3 hours, but leave work at lunchtime the next day.

treis 6y ago
The American developer can retire in 1/3 to 1/2 the time of the Finn. And yes, I'd say working a bit more for that is an obvious yes.
- gorbachev 6y ago
  It depends. You can't, if: 1. you have a chronic illness that requires a good healthcare plan to be treated affordably 2. you have a large family 3. your student debt is larger than average 4. you have a large mortgage 5. your have other financial liabilities you can't afford to handle without good paying job 6. you have no retirement savings or they are insufficient Items 1, 2, 3 and 6 are non-issues in Scandinavian countries.
- bvcvbuiy 6y ago
  The obsession of American developers with retirement tells a lot about what they think about their jobs.
  - treis 6y ago
    As if 95% of Europeans wouldn't quit their job tomorrow if they won the lottery.
    - bonzini 6y ago
      Winning the lottery is not the same thing as not having a work-life balance for 30 years (I don't know anyone who retired before 55).
- drstewart 6y ago
  >The obsession of American developers with retirement tells a lot about what they think about their jobs. Funny how Europeans are crowing in this thread about how Americans need unions for better pay, but when Americans say they have better pay Europeans just say Americans are obsessed with money. The obsession with Americans tells a lot about what Europeans think of their system
  - lostlogin 6y ago
    I think you have replied to the wrong comment.
  - bvcvbuiy 6y ago
    The people who mention unions have in mind better rights for employees not better pay (no one seriously thinks SV developers need better salaries).
- efdee 6y ago
  Are you saying American developers retire around 40-50yo?

colejohnson66 6y ago

It is a balance. But the point GP is making (it seems) is that if “shit [does] hit the fan,” you should be paid overtime for it, not have it be part of your job. It’s a cultural difference really.

treis 6y ago
It doesn't really work because the incentives become misaligned. It becomes a good thing for workers to have things go wrong and for them to be inefficient with their time. Organizations end up much less flexible because they then don't trust their workers not to milk them. Ultimately it changes from paying someone to get a job done to paying them for hours worked. Anyone that's hired a plumber knows that you get far faster and efficient work in the first situation.
- Hamuko 6y ago
  I get full pay for a sick day and I don't have a cap on sick days. And yet, I have not called in sick in the last two years. Just because people could do something, doesn't mean that they will do it. The people at our company do not spend all of their time making the system more unreliable so that they'd be paid more to be on call. Hell, if you asked the developers, most of them would probably love to spend more time making the system more reliable, but the bosses usually want developers to add more features.
  - scarby2 6y ago
    This! I hate the perverse incentive that many americans try to push about sick leave, overtime etc. The truth of the matter is that most people actually want to do their job. Do people abuse sick leave - yes, but it is certainly the minority of sick days taken. In fact leave is undervalued as a concept by most US employers/employees, various studies have found that workers who take more vacation and work less hours are healthier and more productive. Some progressive companies are starting to learn from this (I spoke to a travel technology company a while ago who will fund you to take a 2 week trip out of the country every year).

ytwySXpMbS 6y ago

Well yes, everything is hunky dory if you work in an atypically well paid industry. It’s still a problem for the rest of the country, I imagine teachers aren’t too happy about unpaid overtime for instance.

theshrike79 6y ago

If shit hits the fan, the company should be prepared to pay for it. If not, then clearly the shit hasn't actually hit any fans and I can keep relaxing on my free time. Many times companies and clients like to pretend there is an emergency that needs extra hours, but if there is a price tag attached, the urgency disappears really fast. Overtime is a mutual contract in Finland. The employee can't just decide to do overtime for extra pay (usually 150-200% hourly rate), neither can the company order an employee to do overtime hours. Both agree how many hours are needed and what should be accomplished by working extra hours. I can _voluntarily_ work longer hours and "bank" those, I'm also free to use my banked hours at a time of my choosing or be compensated for those hours with money. For example I can do 9 hours from monday to thursday and leave at noon on friday for a nice long afternoon/evening with my family.

container 6y ago

I wouldn't start too much speculation around a comment that started with 'probably'. But in any case, I'm also a Finn, and my contract also refers to that agreement. Still, I don't think I even know anyone who just drops what they're doing when their hours are up for the day or the week. It seems that everyone's working around the clock, even on weekends and holidays. And just like you would expect by now, people take pride in it and boast about it too. Sure, that's pathological, but I really can't even imagine working 9 to 5 and then disconnecting for the rest of the time, union or not. I think you're considered exceptional in Finnish IT if you can do that.

ingvul 6y ago

> Like if production is down how can you say: "My 40 hours is up this week, I'll look at it on Monday". It depends. If it's the first time production is down and I'm already off, I fix the issue. Once it's fixed I'll tell my manager: "we need on-call people. Please don't consider me for that position because I value more my free-time than money. Thanks". The second time production is down, I won't fix it. If they fire me because I don't do on-call, then again it depends. I would revisit my contract and if it doesn't say anything about being on-call I would point that out. In any case, I would start to look for a new job asap.

IanCal 6y ago

> Like if production is down how can you say: "My 40 hours is up this week, I'll look at it on Monday" "Tell whoever is on call to deal with it"

davidgay 6y ago

> It's a balance. You shouldn't routinely be working a ton of nights and weekends. But sometimes shit hits the fan at inconvenient hours and you need to respond. If not, you have to have routine 24/7 coverage which gets really expensive really fast ultimately leading to lower salaries for developers. The not-uncommon answer to this is an oncall rotation, where you are paid at some fraction of your full-time salary, to respond to such problems. The fraction likely works out better than 'overtime' pay, as it's for all the time you are oncall, not just when some issue occurs.

ciceryadam 6y ago
Yup exactly, if I'm on emergency calls, I get payed 10% of my base hourly to be available, online in 15minutes and ready to solve issues. As soon as I get a call during this time, it's overtime (125% of hourly pay, bonuses for weekend/night calls). If I'm on holiday I'm out for the company, but I'm there for colleagues. With this system did daily rotations and weekly rotations, both lengths have their pros and cons.

Frondo 6y ago

> Like if production is down how can you say... Come on, man, it's not your company and if they're not paying you for that time, it's not your responsibility. Volunteering your time for someone else's business? Is this really what you want to do with your life?

colejohnson66 6y ago
The unfortunate reality is that most people don’t have a choice. If they refuse the work, they’re fired because it’ll be easy to find someone who will do the work even during off-hours.

908B64B197 6y ago

At 1/2 1/3 the pay, I can't really see why a dev would work more than 30 hours a week. Especially if there's no stock comp.

bonzini 6y ago
Paid time off, paid paternity leave, decent retirement paid by the employer, world class single payer healthcare and paid sick days, no at-will work, affordable childcare, don't have to set up a college fund for my sons' education when they're born, etc. etc.