4 ms·

That's a pretty sweeping generalization to think that the answer is either "yes" or "no". Of course some people will lie and cheat their way through life, so ye

That's a pretty sweeping generalization to think that the answer is either "yes" or "no". Of course some people will lie and cheat their way through life, so yes, some people will pretend to be sick in order to use up their X sick days. And yes, we could make it harder to cheat by making rules, such as always requiring a doctor's notice for sick days. Is the problem large enough that you need to prevent people from cheating, or should you make a tradeoff where you allow some people to cheat, in order to reduce epidemics (which are excarcebated by forcing people to go to work sick)? I guess the answer depends on society.

Gwypaas 6y ago
Or simply add some flexibility. The rules are similar in Sweden, with the caveat that if an employer suspects that an employee actually is not sick they can demand a doctor's note which the employer then pays for. If the note shows that the employee cheated you get a warning. If the action is repeated then a doctor's note can be required from day one. Start with good faith, but add some flexibility.
- mediascreen 6y ago
  One weird thing here in Sweden, is that you can take sick leave from your vacation. So if you get the flu during your vacation you can call in sick and not use your vacation days while you are sick. I have never heard of anyone doing this though and I would personally be too embarrassed to use the system in that way.
  - cr1895 6y ago
    It's the same in the Netherlands.
    - AnssiH 6y ago
      Finland, too, I believe.
ghaff 6y ago
Historically, when sick and vacation were more typically separate pools, the answer was definitely it depended. It's not hard to find studies showing that Mondays and Fridays saw a disproportionate number (i.e. not just 20%) of single day sick days. And, I'm sure, the pattern wasn't spread evenly across everyone. Personally, although I've fortunately had much need to take an appreciable number of sick days, I favor them being separate because as others note, especially with a relatively limited pool of PTO days, there's a lot of incentive to work sick.
- mikem170 6y ago
  At this point in the conversation I don't understand why any employee would want them to be separate. Doesn't that just work to the company's benefit? They want you to be there as many days as possible Why wouldn't you want all the sick+personal days to use as you see fit?
  - ghaff 6y ago
    The argument for a shared pool from the employee side is "I don't get sick much and, as a shared pool, I almost certainly get more vacation time off than if I had a sick pool and a vacation pool." However, historically, when the two were commonly separate, the sick time would often actually be a very significant chunk (maybe a month) with the understanding that actually burning through most or all of your sick time would be a rare event because of an operation or whatever. Just to throw out rough numbers, you might have 4 weeks of a combined PTO pool today. 20 years ago you might have had 3 weeks of vacation time and 4 weeks of sick time.
  - cr1895 6y ago
    >Why wouldn't you want all the sick+personal days to use as you see fit? Another thing that is important to point out is that leave days are sometimes an earned entitlement ultimately paid out to you if not taken, whereas sick leave isn't.
    - ghaff 6y ago
      That's a good point. It may also be worth pointing out that's the case with "unlimited" vacation as well. Even if you're not cynical about whether employees will be able to take a reasonable amount in practice, it's certainly the case that nothing needs to be paid out when you leave. Which for someone moving around jobs a fair bit can add up over time.

Gwypaas 6y ago

Or simply add some flexibility. The rules are similar in Sweden, with the caveat that if an employer suspects that an employee actually is not sick they can demand a doctor's note which the employer then pays for. If the note shows that the employee cheated you get a warning. If the action is repeated then a doctor's note can be required from day one. Start with good faith, but add some flexibility.

mediascreen 6y ago
One weird thing here in Sweden, is that you can take sick leave from your vacation. So if you get the flu during your vacation you can call in sick and not use your vacation days while you are sick. I have never heard of anyone doing this though and I would personally be too embarrassed to use the system in that way.
- cr1895 6y ago
  It's the same in the Netherlands.
  - AnssiH 6y ago
    Finland, too, I believe.

ghaff 6y ago

Historically, when sick and vacation were more typically separate pools, the answer was definitely it depended. It's not hard to find studies showing that Mondays and Fridays saw a disproportionate number (i.e. not just 20%) of single day sick days. And, I'm sure, the pattern wasn't spread evenly across everyone. Personally, although I've fortunately had much need to take an appreciable number of sick days, I favor them being separate because as others note, especially with a relatively limited pool of PTO days, there's a lot of incentive to work sick.

mikem170 6y ago
At this point in the conversation I don't understand why any employee would want them to be separate. Doesn't that just work to the company's benefit? They want you to be there as many days as possible Why wouldn't you want all the sick+personal days to use as you see fit?
- ghaff 6y ago
  The argument for a shared pool from the employee side is "I don't get sick much and, as a shared pool, I almost certainly get more vacation time off than if I had a sick pool and a vacation pool." However, historically, when the two were commonly separate, the sick time would often actually be a very significant chunk (maybe a month) with the understanding that actually burning through most or all of your sick time would be a rare event because of an operation or whatever. Just to throw out rough numbers, you might have 4 weeks of a combined PTO pool today. 20 years ago you might have had 3 weeks of vacation time and 4 weeks of sick time.
- cr1895 6y ago
  >Why wouldn't you want all the sick+personal days to use as you see fit? Another thing that is important to point out is that leave days are sometimes an earned entitlement ultimately paid out to you if not taken, whereas sick leave isn't.
  - ghaff 6y ago
    That's a good point. It may also be worth pointing out that's the case with "unlimited" vacation as well. Even if you're not cynical about whether employees will be able to take a reasonable amount in practice, it's certainly the case that nothing needs to be paid out when you leave. Which for someone moving around jobs a fair bit can add up over time.