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I also see the opposite impact both for me and my staff. It's very difficult to say no to the constant demands of children at home and the lack of physical dist

I also see the opposite impact both for me and my staff. It's very difficult to say no to the constant demands of children at home and the lack of physical distance makes it hard for me to concentrate on my work during regular work hours.

rapsey 6y ago
But that does not hold for everyone. If you have an office room in your house you can keep children at bay. Lots of parents are fine with working from home.
- ekianjo 6y ago
  Oh so you lock yourself in your office room?
  - rapsey 6y ago
    If the kid is too young to understand the issue why not? Someone clue me in why that is so bad.
    - ryneandal 6y ago
      It isn't. Work/home separation is important when you have children. My kids know when my door is shut, it means I'm "not home." I've primarily worked at home for six years now, and it's been an incredibly effective method for providing that needed separation. When the door is open, or if I come out of my office, they know it's a free-for-all for my attention, and I'll often walk out to play with them from time to time to clear my head and/or relieve some work-related stress.
- alias_neo 6y ago
  Although I don't agree with the person you're replying to, your suggestion is equally as "partially-valid". My wife and I have a 1 year old, and we're both professionals who need to focus on work, hold meetings, and generally concentrate on our work. Which of us should look after our 1 year old while the other keeps the child at bay by hiding in the office? The fact of the matter is; our homes were generally not created to be work places, and employers need to accept that as another commenter eloquently put it; we're not working from home, we're at home during a crises, trying to work.
  - rapsey 6y ago
    This is why I said does not hold for everyone. It is dependent on location of the person, income, family situation, housing, etc.
    - fastball 6y ago
      Right, but maybe that's why a top-down approach like this is a bad one?
      - rapsey 6y ago
        You mean the EU ruling? What is wrong with it?
        fastball 6y ago
        Regulation always has unintended side-effects. In this case I don't think the regulation is necessary, which effectively makes it bad by default, because it adds complication and reduces flexibility of both employers and workers. Slight tangent, but I also think governments start calling everything a "right" at their own peril. That's something I found incredibly refreshing about Andrew Yang's presidential run. Unlike every other progressive in America who has followed EU's lead by saying "we need universal healthcare because it's a human right", his take was "we should have healthcare because a safety net like that will encourage entrepreneurialism and therefore innovation."
        MereInterest 6y ago
        I lean back and forth on the language. One emphasizes the inherent good that a policy will have, in and of itself. The other emphasizes the knock-on effects that will result from a policy. In this case, I believe both are true. First, that it is unconscionable to have lack of healthcare in a developed nation. Second, that providing healthcare will give good economic benefits. Which of these I emphasize at any given point depends on who I am talking to.
mrlala 6y ago
Sure, but that really has nothing to do with the topic at hand. The point is, just because you are working from home (and have access to 100% of what you 'need' for work since you are always working from home) doesn't mean you should be expected to be on call at any time just because "you can".
exDM69 6y ago
Note that this legislation has been in preparation before the pandemic. It is not a response to working from home increasing in 2020.
- daxfohl 6y ago
  Tangent: did you ever get anywhere on https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8869652 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8869652 ? I've been thinking that too for my type inferencer in https://github.com/daxfohl/dottie https://github.com/daxfohl/dottie, and kind of tinkering on it in my free time. My current thinking on the matter is, would be neat, it might be possible, but IDK whether it would be useful. If types are inferred completely, i.e. there's no actual type definitions, perhaps things not even having types themselves, but rather just rules extracted and tested such that the compiler evaluates and says "yup you can pass X into F" (which may be all you can say in cases like the omega combinator--there's no "type" you can associate with it afaict), then there's nothing to apply type classes to. "Can't have type classes, without having types". Also it takes away one of the big advantages of defined types (records / classes), in that you can do `.` and get precise autocomplete. If everything is just inferred, then the editor can't help you out as much. Anyway, was just curious if you got anywhere.
MereInterest 6y ago
I'd see that as a difference in the current situation. The best way I've heard it phrased is that we are not working from home. Rather, we are at home during a crisis, trying to work. Yes, it is month 9 of a crisis, but still a crisis, and it is reasonable for performance expectations to be lower as a result. For me, my apartment wasn't chosen with the expectation of being a space to work from home. My computer desk is in the corner of the living room, because I like being able to talk with my wife while playing video games. When covid hit, that also became my work desk, as there isn't a good place elsewhere to move it. The space simply wasn't intended to be a dedicated work area, and I know that I get distracted whenever my cats wail at me for attention. (I imagine that kids are even more needing of attention, though I don't have personal experimental evidence to back that up.) And that's okay. That's human. It's okay to re-evaluate expectations in light of a crisis, and know that there will be distractions throughout the day as a result.
jeromenerf 6y ago
My father gets upset with this depiction. I don’t have children, so I can’t have a good feel of how much of a boomer rant it is. His point was that my sister and I were not difficult to manage, while he was working at home. He was just telling us to leave him alone and play outside. Or play legos in our rooms. The happy 80s. I hear from my friends that working from home with kids is not manageable in a flat. Possible in a house.
- detaro 6y ago
  You and your sister probably weren't at home the entire day, but went to daycare/school? Whereas now families now don't have practice or established routines, in many cases the kids are at home all the time (school/daycare closed) and without much contact/playtime with other kids. I assume that's a large difference.
- pbhjpbhj 6y ago
  You played with lego for your entire childhood, no education at all? Personally I love homeschooling (ie teaching my kids out of a school environment), but kids wither without educational input and intellectual nurturing. You can expect a kid to develop well without educational input shut in a room by themselves for weeks on end, even if their parents can afford lego.
  - jeromenerf 6y ago
    Oh, no, of course. We went to school, 4 days a week until high school. Wednesdays were off back then. I was not referring to home schooling but "managing kids" nowadays compared to the 80s. To my father, which was well involved in our education and housekeeping btw, it seems there wasn’t much anxiety about it. I feel that my friends are pretty anxious nowadays. My dad was a general science teacher in a technical high school (woodworkers, mechanics, electrician ...), from an farmer family. We had this chance to learn a lot out of school, building stuff and caring for animals and crops. To the point actually where I haven’t learned a lot science wise until university.
WealthVsSurvive 6y ago
What if I told you that other countries help ensure access to good and healthy childcare because they realize that civilizations don't really stand unless you are able to raise children in them?
- donatj 6y ago
  Sending your child to childcare at a time like this seems at least as dangerous as going to work.
- rapsey 6y ago
  Some countries suspended kindergartens and school is from home. Leaving pearents on their own.

rapsey 6y ago

But that does not hold for everyone. If you have an office room in your house you can keep children at bay. Lots of parents are fine with working from home.

ekianjo 6y ago
Oh so you lock yourself in your office room?
- rapsey 6y ago
  If the kid is too young to understand the issue why not? Someone clue me in why that is so bad.
  - ryneandal 6y ago
    It isn't. Work/home separation is important when you have children. My kids know when my door is shut, it means I'm "not home." I've primarily worked at home for six years now, and it's been an incredibly effective method for providing that needed separation. When the door is open, or if I come out of my office, they know it's a free-for-all for my attention, and I'll often walk out to play with them from time to time to clear my head and/or relieve some work-related stress.
alias_neo 6y ago
Although I don't agree with the person you're replying to, your suggestion is equally as "partially-valid". My wife and I have a 1 year old, and we're both professionals who need to focus on work, hold meetings, and generally concentrate on our work. Which of us should look after our 1 year old while the other keeps the child at bay by hiding in the office? The fact of the matter is; our homes were generally not created to be work places, and employers need to accept that as another commenter eloquently put it; we're not working from home, we're at home during a crises, trying to work.
- rapsey 6y ago
  This is why I said does not hold for everyone. It is dependent on location of the person, income, family situation, housing, etc.
  - fastball 6y ago
    Right, but maybe that's why a top-down approach like this is a bad one?
    - rapsey 6y ago
      You mean the EU ruling? What is wrong with it?
      - fastball 6y ago
        Regulation always has unintended side-effects. In this case I don't think the regulation is necessary, which effectively makes it bad by default, because it adds complication and reduces flexibility of both employers and workers. Slight tangent, but I also think governments start calling everything a "right" at their own peril. That's something I found incredibly refreshing about Andrew Yang's presidential run. Unlike every other progressive in America who has followed EU's lead by saying "we need universal healthcare because it's a human right", his take was "we should have healthcare because a safety net like that will encourage entrepreneurialism and therefore innovation."
        MereInterest 6y ago
        I lean back and forth on the language. One emphasizes the inherent good that a policy will have, in and of itself. The other emphasizes the knock-on effects that will result from a policy. In this case, I believe both are true. First, that it is unconscionable to have lack of healthcare in a developed nation. Second, that providing healthcare will give good economic benefits. Which of these I emphasize at any given point depends on who I am talking to.

mrlala 6y ago

Sure, but that really has nothing to do with the topic at hand. The point is, just because you are working from home (and have access to 100% of what you 'need' for work since you are always working from home) doesn't mean you should be expected to be on call at any time just because "you can".

exDM69 6y ago

Note that this legislation has been in preparation before the pandemic. It is not a response to working from home increasing in 2020.

daxfohl 6y ago
Tangent: did you ever get anywhere on https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8869652 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8869652 ? I've been thinking that too for my type inferencer in https://github.com/daxfohl/dottie https://github.com/daxfohl/dottie, and kind of tinkering on it in my free time. My current thinking on the matter is, would be neat, it might be possible, but IDK whether it would be useful. If types are inferred completely, i.e. there's no actual type definitions, perhaps things not even having types themselves, but rather just rules extracted and tested such that the compiler evaluates and says "yup you can pass X into F" (which may be all you can say in cases like the omega combinator--there's no "type" you can associate with it afaict), then there's nothing to apply type classes to. "Can't have type classes, without having types". Also it takes away one of the big advantages of defined types (records / classes), in that you can do `.` and get precise autocomplete. If everything is just inferred, then the editor can't help you out as much. Anyway, was just curious if you got anywhere.

MereInterest 6y ago

I'd see that as a difference in the current situation. The best way I've heard it phrased is that we are not working from home. Rather, we are at home during a crisis, trying to work. Yes, it is month 9 of a crisis, but still a crisis, and it is reasonable for performance expectations to be lower as a result. For me, my apartment wasn't chosen with the expectation of being a space to work from home. My computer desk is in the corner of the living room, because I like being able to talk with my wife while playing video games. When covid hit, that also became my work desk, as there isn't a good place elsewhere to move it. The space simply wasn't intended to be a dedicated work area, and I know that I get distracted whenever my cats wail at me for attention. (I imagine that kids are even more needing of attention, though I don't have personal experimental evidence to back that up.) And that's okay. That's human. It's okay to re-evaluate expectations in light of a crisis, and know that there will be distractions throughout the day as a result.

jeromenerf 6y ago

My father gets upset with this depiction. I don’t have children, so I can’t have a good feel of how much of a boomer rant it is. His point was that my sister and I were not difficult to manage, while he was working at home. He was just telling us to leave him alone and play outside. Or play legos in our rooms. The happy 80s. I hear from my friends that working from home with kids is not manageable in a flat. Possible in a house.

detaro 6y ago
You and your sister probably weren't at home the entire day, but went to daycare/school? Whereas now families now don't have practice or established routines, in many cases the kids are at home all the time (school/daycare closed) and without much contact/playtime with other kids. I assume that's a large difference.
pbhjpbhj 6y ago
You played with lego for your entire childhood, no education at all? Personally I love homeschooling (ie teaching my kids out of a school environment), but kids wither without educational input and intellectual nurturing. You can expect a kid to develop well without educational input shut in a room by themselves for weeks on end, even if their parents can afford lego.
- jeromenerf 6y ago
  Oh, no, of course. We went to school, 4 days a week until high school. Wednesdays were off back then. I was not referring to home schooling but "managing kids" nowadays compared to the 80s. To my father, which was well involved in our education and housekeeping btw, it seems there wasn’t much anxiety about it. I feel that my friends are pretty anxious nowadays. My dad was a general science teacher in a technical high school (woodworkers, mechanics, electrician ...), from an farmer family. We had this chance to learn a lot out of school, building stuff and caring for animals and crops. To the point actually where I haven’t learned a lot science wise until university.

WealthVsSurvive 6y ago

What if I told you that other countries help ensure access to good and healthy childcare because they realize that civilizations don't really stand unless you are able to raise children in them?

donatj 6y ago
Sending your child to childcare at a time like this seems at least as dangerous as going to work.
rapsey 6y ago
Some countries suspended kindergartens and school is from home. Leaving pearents on their own.