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What was Aragorn's tax policy? [video]
- scoot_718 6y agoThat's not how monarchy or feudalism worked.
- Apocryphon 6y agoThat's because Tolkien quite possibly did not base Gondor on Arthurian myth and popular conceptions of the Middle Ages, unlike many of the conventional fantasy works that succeeded him. Instead, he may instead have based it upon Rome: > Tolkien had far more imagination than most of those who followed him. A common criticism of the worlds described in fantasy novels is that they are “just like mediaeval Europe, only with magic”. They have knights on horseback, an aristocracy of nobles under a king, and so on, coexisting with magicians, fantastical creatures and items of cosmic power beyond belief. > You won't find any of these feudal European elements in Gondor. The only identifiable vassal state of Gondor is Dol Amroth, otherwise the kingdom is unitary. The army of Gondor fights on foot, even the nobility like Aragorn and Boromir. Faramir rides a horse during his retreat from the Pelennor wall, but he doesn't participate in cavalry charges, despite what Peter Jackson may have shown you. The couched lances of Arthurian tradition are strictly a Rohirrim technique. In fact there are references to there being only one company of cavalry in the entire army of Gondor. > I think Tolkien had a particular culture in mind. These features are much more reminiscent of imperial Rome than of feudal Europe. To be honest, the army is more reminiscent of early imperial Rome than of Byzantium, but I never expected this to come out perfect. https://www.oocities.org/davidbofinger/numenor.htm https://www.oocities.org/davidbofinger/numenor.htm
- sanxiyn 6y agoTolkien actually wrote "Elf-Latin" in an early draft. It's kind of transparent. It got dropped when he dropped all references to the real world as a policy.
- gpderetta 6y agoalso Gondor was founded by the survivors of Numenor which also appears inspired by greco-roman tradition (especially its fall).
- BlueTemplar 6y ago> That's because Tolkien quite possibly did not base Gondor on Arthurian myth and popular conceptions of the Middle Ages, unlike many of the conventional fantasy works that succeeded him. Instead, he may instead have based it upon Rome: But then the video argues the opposite, specifically about vassal fiefdoms ?
- baud147258 6y ago>> Arthurian myth and popular conceptions of the Middle Ages > But then the video argues the opposite, specifically about vassal fiefdoms ? I think an assumption of the video is that the popular conceptions of the Middle Ages don't exactly show the vassalage system (and its relationships between vassals and lieges), instead showing kings as a rulers with absolute power.
- Escornabois 6y agoYes, I also ended there after reading today's https://acoup.blog/2020/12/04/collections-that-dothraki-horde-part-i-barbarian-couture/ https://acoup.blog/2020/12/04/collections-that-dothraki-hord...
- sideshowb 6y agoCan someone provide the TLDR for why GRRM was wrong to question Aragorn's tax policy? The linked article seems to assume we all know this but I can't see why it's not a valid question.
- Jon_Lowtek 6y agoTolkien was a linguist who created a fantastical medieval world as a place to toy with imaginary languages, then turned fantasy author writing a classical "epic poetry" (word is no longer used in that way) As such Tolkien writes fiction - and can just say "Aragon became king and ruled wise and good" and leave the rest to the imagination. Now GRRM wants his medieval saga to be more cynical - there can be no "wise and good king" - the very concept is foreign to GRRM - everything must have tragic downsides, be a metaphor for a real world thingy and ultimately be about wealth, power, status and sex. Over-analyzing Tolkien looking for such motifs is not wrong, just a bit stupid, because it favors quick and wrong conclusions that miss the obvious - the genre. And GRRM knows perfectly well that parts of the community are anal and take things like this far to serious, while being blind for the obvious. GRRM seems to ask fans to over-analyze Tolkien for "bad aspects" and also immediately jumps from taxes to orc genocide. The whole thing looks like an attempt to smear a business rival, an attempt to describe himself as the better author for having a more "cyncial/realisic" style. (look at the original interview, the question was about power and his characters wielding power badly - and GRRM goes "whatabout aragon")
- sideshowb 6y agoThanks. That makes sense from a literary standpoint. Taking the historical angle I thought the acoup link might have been implying there's something about taxes in feudalism that should have made GRRM's question redundant.
- mrtksn 6y agoWe also should not forget that The Lord of the Rings is an account written from the victors perspective. Maybe Sauron was simply an entrepreneur who favours meritocracy instead of races and societal hierarchy, thus becoming the boogeyman of the ruling class. Please take a moment to consider an alternative account of what actually happened: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Ringbearer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Ringbearer
- Apocryphon 6y agoThough I've not yet read either series, I've been told that this is another alternate account: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sundering_(series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sundering_(series)
- enriquto 6y agoThe first chapter of the last ringbearer is extremely funny! It relates the wars described in LOTR from the point of view of Sauron's soldiers (they are regular humans, the "orc" descriptions are a ridiculous libel). Unfortunately, the rest of the book describes the continuation after the wars and it is much less engaging, since you cannot draw parallels with the original story.
- ben0x539 6y agoI tend to agree (I still enjoyed the rest, and the epilogue was fun as well), but I love the weirdly extended espionage subplot just because it has a oneliner that is such an amazing, amazingly heavy-handed dunk on Tolkien: > “Because you are an Enemy. You fight on the side of Darkness, so your every word is a lie, and your every deed is evil by definition.” > > “You’re mistaken, lad,” Tangorn sighed wearily. “I’m on neither the Dark nor the Light side. If you need a label, I’m on the side of many colors.”
- eriktrautman 6y agoI love the idea of that but do wish it didn’t require altering so many of the basic facts. The most compelling alternate histories use the same set of facts but show how the victors were misguided and misled by their assumptions, because it is more tragic that way.
- michjedi 6y agoIf anything, the fact that George RR Martin and this vlogger obsess about fictional governance, while Tolkien was more interested in myth and language says a lot about the change in times and what media-makers feel they should contribute to.
- me_me_me 6y agoAnd logistics, Tolkien has armies moving with logistics in mind ie if the armies described could be supported with supplies,
- Gupie 6y agoIt is difficult to explain Gondor's population collapse. Sure there have been plagues and wars but there is no shortage of unused land to farm, no reason why the population could not recover quickly. It is as if Gondor has a dark side, perhaps successively less superhuman Numenorians ensuring racial purity at the expense of all else?
- ed_balls 6y agoAnother possibilities: Cultural - having a single child to join estates Biological - Longevity comes at a price.
- Gupie 6y agoPossibly, but to fair I don't think there is a reason. The shire is similarly inexplicitly underpopulated when hobbits have been peacefully having large families there for 1400 years!
- TeMPOraL 6y agoPerhaps all that magic is reducing fertility rates? After all, magic requires power, sometimes quite large amounts, and no power source is to be seen. This means it's either beamed, or otherwise dispersed through the environment. This could have negative implications for health and fertility.
- scatters 6y agoOr a more sinister reason: canonically, magic is powered by sacrifice - and most powerfully, human sacrifice. Sure, Tolkien skips over the child-snatchers, the sacrificial altars, the charnel-pits behind the Valar-temples, but we well know the true cost of the Numenorean theocracy.
- Gupie 6y agoThis wouldn't explain the low population of the shire. (Unless there is a "The Time Machine" type scenario. :( )
- saalweachter 6y agoJumping from Tolkien to Tolkien-inspired Dungeons & Dragons, consider the textile industry. The Players Handbook, 5th edition, tells us (a) a square yard of canvas costs 1 silver and (b) a "squalid" lifestyle, one step up from the "wretched" lifestyle where you have absolutely nothing, costs 1 silver per day. Based on historical rates for weaving, a weaver could plausibility weave 30 square yards of rough canvas a day, but doing so would consume over 8000 yards of rough thread per yard of canvas. A spinner, meanwhile, could only produce, optimistically, 6000 yards of rough thread a day. Assuming most of the weaver's income was spent on raw materials, leaving them perhaps 2 silver per day for the common weaver to live a "poor" lifestyle, your spinners are going to earn maybe half a silver per day, assuming their raw materials are virtually free. So how can your spinners survive on less than a squalid income? Well, it would probably help if they were small, like halflings, and so needed less food, or children, who had part of their living expenses covered by their parents. It would be even better if they were both; either would bump you into the "squalid" income bracket, both would bump you all the way to "poor". Conclusion: the textile industry in Dungeons & Dragons is built on poor halfling children working 12+ hour shifts.
- otabdeveloper4 6y ago> Tolkien-inspired Dungeons & Dragons Not really. D&D was inspired by Vance and Howard for the most part.
- saalweachter 6y agoEh, while D&D had many influences to its aesthetics, the only reason people spent so many years pretending Tolkien wasn't a major one was, lawsuits brought or threatened by the estate that resulted in them filing the serial numbers off enough to stop being sued while pretending they'd never heard of this guy Tolkien.
- otabdeveloper4 6y agoIf you read the original AD&D 2nd ed., you know the tone and subject matter is just completely different from Tolkien. AD&D is "eldritch horror" and "band of rogues", not "epic Greek tragedy in medieval garb".
- JoeAltmaier 6y agoTo update this, consider Harry Potter. He's part of a secret ruling class with widespread scorn for the 'Muggles'. To the point they're often considered 'not people': they erase Muggle memories, bribe and extort them, even kill them to keep their oligarchy secret. They wage wars using them as fodder. They never, ever consider allowing them self-rule. When a Wizard is born without skills, they're left alone with an amused tolerance. When a Muggle dares to become a Wizard, it breaks their society in half.
- subjectsigma 6y agoIn the 7th book (?) it's revealed that the Ministry not only is in contact with the British government, but that they're warning them of Voldemort's return and trying to help reduce damage to muggle society. The Statute of Secrecy is clearly motivated by centuries of abuse of wizards, witch burning and the like. I don't remember any indication that wizards "rule" the muggles in any way or affect them at all. Prejudice against muggles is the #1 flag for "this person is evil" and is pretty much always decried as wrong by the protagonists. The only thing that really holds is the mistreatment of squibs, but even if it's wrong it makes a lot of sense - they would be hard-pressed to find good jobs in wizarding society for purely practical reasons. So unless I'm missing something from some extended universe, this is an pretty unfair mis-characterisation of the books...
- JoeAltmaier 6y agoIn contact? Maybe a little. That visit to the Prime Minister is more of a 'royal visit' than peers comparing notes. Remember they insinuate that WWII is entirely a Wizard dispute that got out of hand -50 millions dead. Then there's the secret police visits to erase people. Heck, Harry's best friend wants to be one when he grows up! Just like dear ol Dad! Who comes home with 'Muggle Artifacts' that they somehow don't need any more - presumably because they had to be put down. I half expected a collection of gold teeth or whatever. All that made 'disliking Muggles' into a red flag in my reading was, that a segment of Wizard society wanted the cattle to be managed without spooking them - gently and quietly. So they wouldn't be a danger to Wizards, not out of any consideration. The other segment was fine with running them thru the chute to the slaughterhouse. Both opinions were current even in Hogwarts. But neither regarded them as more than cattle to be managed. And of course Wizard society had the right to manage them, that was never questioned. Such a book could only be written by the British, with their tone-deafness about class and privilege. Anyway, I enjoyed the books too.
- dave333 6y agoAre there any fictional worlds where exploring economics is a major theme? Given the large variety of actual economic systems in history it seems that "truth is stranger than fiction" applies.