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Addressing the root issue means reforming immigration laws to be far more permissive in all aspects. Which is a win for immigrants because they no longer can be

by pitaj 6y ago

Addressing the root issue means reforming immigration laws to be far more permissive in all aspects. Which is a win for immigrants because they no longer can be threatened with losing their job and deportation, meaning they won't work for far lower wages than citizens. That's also a win for citizens, as now their aren't competing with an underclass forced into worse working arrangements. And it's also a win for companies, as they don't have to try to find local talent before hiring an immigrant.

rayiner 6y ago
Why more permissive? Is there really any documented need for more skilled workers in a country of 300 million people?
- bluecalm 6y ago
  It's obvious if you ever were anywhere close to a process of hiring a programmer. It's hard to find competent people. There is a lot of competition. A lot of positions companies could profitably hire at decent salaries won't ever be filled because salaries of people qualified to do those jobs start above profitability threshold. Besides, it's not rocket science that having more talented productive people in your country is a good idea.
  - sidlls 6y ago
    Have you considered the difficulty in hiring is partly due to artificially complex and high standards? That maybe, to some degree, these standards are promoted in part to contribute to a feedback loop?
  - whimsicalism 6y ago
    > decent salaries won't ever be filled because salaries of people qualified to do those jobs start above profitability threshold. Wait, so will this move lower engineers salaries or raise it because they won't have to compete "with an underclass." The reasoning isn't self-consistent because obviously it will mean lower wages for engineers.
  - JamesBarney 6y ago
    It's not that hard. You have to pay a decent wage and make sure your hiring practices aren't completely broken. > A lot of positions companies could profitably hire at decent salaries won't ever be filled because salaries of people qualified to do those jobs start above profitability threshold. This is true of every job. If salaries were cheaper you would be willing to hire more of them.
  - tptacek 6y ago
    It's hard if you want to hire programmers the way Google and Facebook do, but it's easy to argue that their hiring practices and outcomes are a "wet streets cause rain" situation, where they get away with doing something totally non-scalable because of their enormous market power and status.
nrmitchi 6y ago
> And it's also a win for companies, as they don't have to try to find local talent before hiring an immigrant. I'm with you up until this. Lets be real here, if there is enough reform to put H1-B and American workers on "level playing field" in terms of not being abused, American companies are going to look for American workers first (or people who are already on H1-Bs, and can now switch jobs more easily). This is simply because the American worker has the advantage of not having to go through the application process, and of being able to start working right away; the company won't have to wait months to bring the employee on board.
- pitaj 6y ago
  I wasn't super clear about what exactly this permissive system would look like, but I'll flesh it out a bit in response. I'm in support of open borders. Somebody wants to enter the country? Do a background check, give them a tax ID and let them in. Everyone is a resident without fear of deportation unless they commit a felony. After 5 or 10 years of residency, anyone can become a citizen. I realize that's pretty extreme, though, so here's a more conservative reform approach: End the H1-B program entirely. Just grant people temporary work visas on request after a background check. No company needs to be involved at the beginning. If a person is able to find at least 3 months of full-time work in the first 6 months, they're given work residency.
  - nrmitchi 6y ago
    I think we both have opinions that go in the same general direction. My point was just that "more permissive H1-B rules" doesn't take _any_ advantage away from existing American workers; a logical company would be even more inclined to hire an existing American worker over attempting to get a status for a new foreign worker.
whimsicalism 6y ago
> a win for immigrants because they no longer can be threatened with losing their job and deportation, meaning they won't work for far lower wages than citizen H1B visa holders are required to be paid the prevailing wage and if this is a big problem, then the DOL can raise the H1B wage to help those threatened with deportation. I am skeptical that removing the requirement to find local talent first would be a win for permanent residents & citizens.
- Sodman 6y ago
  "Prevailing wage" in practice is, at best, an "average" wage, so if your company pays above market rate for above average developers normally, you can get a 'bargain' on a H1B worker at the prevailing wage. The "find local talent first" requirement is also pretty weak today if you look into what's actually required. Posting the opening in a local print newspaper satisfies the requirement.

by pitaj 6y ago

rayiner 6y ago

Why more permissive? Is there really any documented need for more skilled workers in a country of 300 million people?

bluecalm 6y ago
It's obvious if you ever were anywhere close to a process of hiring a programmer. It's hard to find competent people. There is a lot of competition. A lot of positions companies could profitably hire at decent salaries won't ever be filled because salaries of people qualified to do those jobs start above profitability threshold. Besides, it's not rocket science that having more talented productive people in your country is a good idea.
- sidlls 6y ago
  Have you considered the difficulty in hiring is partly due to artificially complex and high standards? That maybe, to some degree, these standards are promoted in part to contribute to a feedback loop?
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  > decent salaries won't ever be filled because salaries of people qualified to do those jobs start above profitability threshold. Wait, so will this move lower engineers salaries or raise it because they won't have to compete "with an underclass." The reasoning isn't self-consistent because obviously it will mean lower wages for engineers.
- JamesBarney 6y ago
  It's not that hard. You have to pay a decent wage and make sure your hiring practices aren't completely broken. > A lot of positions companies could profitably hire at decent salaries won't ever be filled because salaries of people qualified to do those jobs start above profitability threshold. This is true of every job. If salaries were cheaper you would be willing to hire more of them.
- tptacek 6y ago
  It's hard if you want to hire programmers the way Google and Facebook do, but it's easy to argue that their hiring practices and outcomes are a "wet streets cause rain" situation, where they get away with doing something totally non-scalable because of their enormous market power and status.

nrmitchi 6y ago

> And it's also a win for companies, as they don't have to try to find local talent before hiring an immigrant. I'm with you up until this. Lets be real here, if there is enough reform to put H1-B and American workers on "level playing field" in terms of not being abused, American companies are going to look for American workers first (or people who are already on H1-Bs, and can now switch jobs more easily). This is simply because the American worker has the advantage of not having to go through the application process, and of being able to start working right away; the company won't have to wait months to bring the employee on board.

pitaj 6y ago
I wasn't super clear about what exactly this permissive system would look like, but I'll flesh it out a bit in response. I'm in support of open borders. Somebody wants to enter the country? Do a background check, give them a tax ID and let them in. Everyone is a resident without fear of deportation unless they commit a felony. After 5 or 10 years of residency, anyone can become a citizen. I realize that's pretty extreme, though, so here's a more conservative reform approach: End the H1-B program entirely. Just grant people temporary work visas on request after a background check. No company needs to be involved at the beginning. If a person is able to find at least 3 months of full-time work in the first 6 months, they're given work residency.
- nrmitchi 6y ago
  I think we both have opinions that go in the same general direction. My point was just that "more permissive H1-B rules" doesn't take _any_ advantage away from existing American workers; a logical company would be even more inclined to hire an existing American worker over attempting to get a status for a new foreign worker.

whimsicalism 6y ago

> a win for immigrants because they no longer can be threatened with losing their job and deportation, meaning they won't work for far lower wages than citizen H1B visa holders are required to be paid the prevailing wage and if this is a big problem, then the DOL can raise the H1B wage to help those threatened with deportation. I am skeptical that removing the requirement to find local talent first would be a win for permanent residents & citizens.

Sodman 6y ago
"Prevailing wage" in practice is, at best, an "average" wage, so if your company pays above market rate for above average developers normally, you can get a 'bargain' on a H1B worker at the prevailing wage. The "find local talent first" requirement is also pretty weak today if you look into what's actually required. Posting the opening in a local print newspaper satisfies the requirement.