7 ms·

I don't think "fired" is the right choice of words -- she gave an ultimatum offering to resign, and they accepted her resignation. Is accepting a resignation th

I don't think "fired" is the right choice of words -- she gave an ultimatum offering to resign, and they accepted her resignation. Is accepting a resignation the same as firing someone? > Thanks for making your conditions clear. We cannot agree to #1 and #2 as you are requesting. We respect your decision to leave Google as a result, and we are accepting your resignation. https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1334364734418726912 https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1334364734418726912

raldi 6y ago
Have “#1 and #2” been published? I don’t see them at the link above or anywhere else.
- Kiro 6y ago
  One of them is in the updated article with Jeff Dean's response: > Timnit responded with an email requiring that a number of conditions be met in order for her to continue working at Google, including revealing the identities of every person who Megan and I had spoken to and consulted as part of the review of the paper and the exact feedback.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
jseliger 6y ago
I recently re-read Noah Smith's essay "Leaders Who Act Like Outsiders Invite Trouble" https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-03-03/leaders-who-act-like-outsiders-invite-trouble https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-03-03/leader.... It's not directly on point, but one concept is: "This extraordinary trend of rank-and-file members challenging the leaders of their organizations goes beyond simple populism. There may be no word for this trend in the English language. But there is one in Japanese: gekokujo." And later, "The real danger of gekokujo, however, comes from the establishment’s response to the threat. Eventually, party bosses, executives and other powerful figures may get tired of being pushed around." Institutions are being pushed by the Twitter mob, and by the Twitter mob mentality, even when the person is formally within the institution. And I think we're learning, or going to have to re-learn, things like "Why did companies traditionally encourage people to leave politics and religion at the door?" and "What's the acceptable level of discourse within the institution, before you're not a part of it any more?" Colleges are inculcating an environment and culture that may not be good for working in large groups. One recent example of these challenges: https://quillette.com/2020/12/01/race-and-social-panic-at-haverford-a-case-study-in-educational-dysfunction https://quillette.com/2020/12/01/race-and-social-panic-at-ha....
- twic 6y ago
  > There may be no word for this trend in the English language. But there is one in Japanese: gekokujo. Isn't the word "mutiny"?
  - spa3thyb 6y ago
    More like coup d'état, or an underdog victory. Author doesn't seem to be using it right, since this would be an actual shift in power, rather than a failed insurgency (as in OP).
  - oh_sigh 6y ago
    Or insubordination.
- voxl 6y ago
  The last thing I would ever want is to model corporate culture after Japan, one of the worst corporate cultures on the planet.
  - telotortium 6y ago
    Gekokujō doesn't refer to Japanese corporate culture at all, but rather the attempted coups and going rogue by junior officers in the Japanese military of the 1920s and 1930s (for example, conquering Manchuria against orders of the senior officers).
- madrox 6y ago
  I've seen gekokujo in many places as a manager. There's often a desire among employees to require the world to adjust to how they think it should work instead of following process. This isn't always bad, of course, because process isn't always perfect. However, their success or failure tend to correlate to their perceived value. Simply put, you have to be a diva in order to act like a diva. I think the last puppeteer for Kermit is a great example[1]. No idea if that's happened here, but as a manager I know what I'd do if an employee -- any employee -- told me to to meet their demands or they would quit. [1] https://www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/tv/muppets-studio-says-kermit-frog-puppeteer-fired-unacceptable-conduct-n783961 https://www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/tv/muppets-studio-says-k...
jononor 6y ago
The next two tweets contain more: > However, we believe the end of your employment should happen faster than your email reflects because certain aspects of the email you sent last night to non-management employees in the brain group reflect behavior that is inconsistent with the expectations of a Google manager. > As a result, we are accepting your resignation immediately, effective today. We will send your final paycheck to your address in Workday. When you return from your vacation, PeopleOps will reach out to you to coordinate the return of Google devices and assets. This third part they make "the resignation" the same as firing the person in practice. No way to plan a coordinated rampdown, transition and handover of projects and responsibilities. Just an unconditional goodbye, don't come to work again.
- idlewords 6y ago
  No, this is more like giving two weeks' notice and then being asked to leave the building immediately. It's not pleasant but it also isn't the same as being fired. Google called her bluff here.
  - draw_down 6y ago
    That's right.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - joshuamorton 6y ago
    Without the specific wording of the original email, I don't think that you can draw this conclusion. I'll note also that this is rather unusual practice for Google. There are a number of people, far more critical of Google, who have resigned, and who have been able to rampdown for 2+ weeks.
    - oh_sigh 6y ago
      The posted email specifically says something about behavior not expected of her position. So it seems possible if you are critical, but fulfill your obligations, they would accept your 2 weeks resignation. Is there an example you have, even self-reported, of a person who was merely critical of Google and was not given a rampdown? Or someone who was critical and did not fulfill their job obligations, and was given a rampdown?
davorak 6y ago
Having conditions is often part of a negotiation. Maybe they offered to resign in that email, but Timnit Gebru does not say she did in the linked twitter as far as I can tell. Unless she formally offer to resign it seems like her management jumped the gun.
- IvyMike 6y ago
  From this tweet: https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1334343577044979712 https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1334343577044979712 > I said here are the conditions. If you can meet them great I’ll take my name off this paper, if not then I can work on a last date. To employers, that qualifies as a conditional resignation.
  - davorak 6y ago
    I read that, not clear without reading the email whether it was a formal offer to resign. If an employee tells their boss they have a plan to offer a resignation on x day or do not get y or are considering it they can fire the employee before then, but I assume they can not push around the day they offer a resignation. An employer not wanting to keep an employee who might soon resign is understandable of course. I am sure it can get fiddly on what counts as a formal offer to resign and that courts make calls one way or another based on ambiguous language. Without the email though it's not clear to me. For better or worse it comes across as Timnit Gebru bosses were eager to shoo her out the door though.
    - pb7 6y ago
      This isn’t having a beer with your buddies and spitballing plans. If you email your employer saying give me this or I resign, the employer can accept your resignation simply by saying no to your conditions. It’s grade school logic. They called her bluff and that’s why she’s salty about it. She signaled her intention to resign and due to her behavior with her reports, Google doesn’t want more of that on her way out so she got cut loose immediately.
      - 6y ago
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
deanCommie 6y ago
Wife says to her programmer husband, "Go to the store and buy a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, buy a dozen." Husband returns with 12 loaves of bread. Most software engineers can read the above joke, and laugh at themselves, then go ahead and upvote your comment not realizing that it is EXACTLY THE SAME THING. Employee: "This is extremely important to me. If you can't address what is important to me, then I can't work here anymore" Google: "OK, thanks for your resignation". This is not okay. Google is "technically correct" - but it is appalling behavior that should make every Googler shake with discomfort. Employees are people. People can get dissatisfied. Frustrated. Angry. Sure, you can say companies don't owe anything to anyone because there is at-will employment. But the reality is unless we want to live in a dystopia, people should be allowed to voice concerns and anger and frustrations, and not be fired for making things uncomfortable or inconvenient.
- sujinge9 6y ago
  Sure, but you can't give an ultimatum like "... then I can't work here anymore" and not follow through with it.
- 4bpp 6y ago
  The joke is a pretty good one, but what's the supposed parallel with the scenario at hand? There is a meaningful interpretation of "buy a dozen" that the wife intended to convey but the programmer fails to notice (because he lacks common-sense knowledge about typical purchase volumes of different items and/or is blinded by the parallelism of "buy a... if <condition>, buy a..."). What is the meaningful common-sense interpretation of "I can't work here anymore" (was that even the literal wording?) that Timnit intended and Google failed to recognise? If you are instead just saying that Google should have let it slide because it was just an emotional outburst ("anger and frustrations") and not meant to be taken seriously, well, in what context can we hold adults to their word at all? Email is written communication, not an offhand verbal remark uttered in a tense meeting in anger. You should be able to see what you are about to send while typing it, and have ample opportunity to look over it again before you press that "Send" button. If your ability to review your words has atrophied, perhaps under the influence of social media which encourages "unfiltered" stream-of-consciousness venting, then this ought to be on you, simply because it is doubtful that society can function without some possibility of making binding statements and we do not have anything more commitmental than email widely deployed (and operable at the pace of the modern workplace) in work-from-home times.
fmajid 6y ago
> Is accepting a resignation the same as firing someone? No. No COBRA benefits and usually no severance. Also the employee is not eligible for unemployment benefits.
- throw__awvlilds 6y ago
  I'm pretty sure if you resign you're still entitled to access the employers' health plan via COBRA? (Distinct issue from whether, as part of a severance package, the company agrees to pay for some/all of it)
bartread 6y ago
I tend to agree, but the following paragraphs suggest that had she not resigned she might have found herself on the wrong end of some sort of disciplinary process: > However, we believe the end of your employment should happen faster than your email reflects because certain aspects of the email you sent last night to non-management employees in the brain group reflect behavior that is inconsistent with the expectations of a Google manager. > As a result, we are accepting your resignation immediately, effective today. We will send your final paycheck to your address in Workday. When you return from your vacation, PeopleOps will reach out to you to coordinate the return of Google devices and assets. Her resignation certainly gave Google an easy out of all that hassle, but would I call this a firing? Perhaps not. If you're the employer you have to figure that if somebody's pissed off enough to (i) sue you whilst employed by you, (ii) write that kind of message to others working in their function or group, and (iii) now they've delivered an ultimatum you're unable or unwilling to meet, they're only going to cause more trouble if you make them work their notice period. If it were me in her boss's position I'd have got her out the door as fast as possible.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
loeg 6y ago
Accepting a resignation means Google doesn't have to pay unemployment benefits. But ultimately, it was their choice to let her go. And the immediateness of the decision and revocation of all access smells like how you treat an employee you're firing.

raldi 6y ago

Have “#1 and #2” been published? I don’t see them at the link above or anywhere else.

Kiro 6y ago
One of them is in the updated article with Jeff Dean's response: > Timnit responded with an email requiring that a number of conditions be met in order for her to continue working at Google, including revealing the identities of every person who Megan and I had spoken to and consulted as part of the review of the paper and the exact feedback.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

jseliger 6y ago

I recently re-read Noah Smith's essay "Leaders Who Act Like Outsiders Invite Trouble" https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-03-03/leaders-who-act-like-outsiders-invite-trouble https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-03-03/leader.... It's not directly on point, but one concept is: "This extraordinary trend of rank-and-file members challenging the leaders of their organizations goes beyond simple populism. There may be no word for this trend in the English language. But there is one in Japanese: gekokujo." And later, "The real danger of gekokujo, however, comes from the establishment’s response to the threat. Eventually, party bosses, executives and other powerful figures may get tired of being pushed around." Institutions are being pushed by the Twitter mob, and by the Twitter mob mentality, even when the person is formally within the institution. And I think we're learning, or going to have to re-learn, things like "Why did companies traditionally encourage people to leave politics and religion at the door?" and "What's the acceptable level of discourse within the institution, before you're not a part of it any more?" Colleges are inculcating an environment and culture that may not be good for working in large groups. One recent example of these challenges: https://quillette.com/2020/12/01/race-and-social-panic-at-haverford-a-case-study-in-educational-dysfunction https://quillette.com/2020/12/01/race-and-social-panic-at-ha....

twic 6y ago
> There may be no word for this trend in the English language. But there is one in Japanese: gekokujo. Isn't the word "mutiny"?
- spa3thyb 6y ago
  More like coup d'état, or an underdog victory. Author doesn't seem to be using it right, since this would be an actual shift in power, rather than a failed insurgency (as in OP).
- oh_sigh 6y ago
  Or insubordination.
voxl 6y ago
The last thing I would ever want is to model corporate culture after Japan, one of the worst corporate cultures on the planet.
- telotortium 6y ago
  Gekokujō doesn't refer to Japanese corporate culture at all, but rather the attempted coups and going rogue by junior officers in the Japanese military of the 1920s and 1930s (for example, conquering Manchuria against orders of the senior officers).
madrox 6y ago
I've seen gekokujo in many places as a manager. There's often a desire among employees to require the world to adjust to how they think it should work instead of following process. This isn't always bad, of course, because process isn't always perfect. However, their success or failure tend to correlate to their perceived value. Simply put, you have to be a diva in order to act like a diva. I think the last puppeteer for Kermit is a great example[1]. No idea if that's happened here, but as a manager I know what I'd do if an employee -- any employee -- told me to to meet their demands or they would quit. [1] https://www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/tv/muppets-studio-says-kermit-frog-puppeteer-fired-unacceptable-conduct-n783961 https://www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/tv/muppets-studio-says-k...

jononor 6y ago

The next two tweets contain more: > However, we believe the end of your employment should happen faster than your email reflects because certain aspects of the email you sent last night to non-management employees in the brain group reflect behavior that is inconsistent with the expectations of a Google manager. > As a result, we are accepting your resignation immediately, effective today. We will send your final paycheck to your address in Workday. When you return from your vacation, PeopleOps will reach out to you to coordinate the return of Google devices and assets. This third part they make "the resignation" the same as firing the person in practice. No way to plan a coordinated rampdown, transition and handover of projects and responsibilities. Just an unconditional goodbye, don't come to work again.

idlewords 6y ago
No, this is more like giving two weeks' notice and then being asked to leave the building immediately. It's not pleasant but it also isn't the same as being fired. Google called her bluff here.
- draw_down 6y ago
  That's right.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- joshuamorton 6y ago
  Without the specific wording of the original email, I don't think that you can draw this conclusion. I'll note also that this is rather unusual practice for Google. There are a number of people, far more critical of Google, who have resigned, and who have been able to rampdown for 2+ weeks.
  - oh_sigh 6y ago
    The posted email specifically says something about behavior not expected of her position. So it seems possible if you are critical, but fulfill your obligations, they would accept your 2 weeks resignation. Is there an example you have, even self-reported, of a person who was merely critical of Google and was not given a rampdown? Or someone who was critical and did not fulfill their job obligations, and was given a rampdown?

davorak 6y ago

Having conditions is often part of a negotiation. Maybe they offered to resign in that email, but Timnit Gebru does not say she did in the linked twitter as far as I can tell. Unless she formally offer to resign it seems like her management jumped the gun.

IvyMike 6y ago
From this tweet: https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1334343577044979712 https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1334343577044979712 > I said here are the conditions. If you can meet them great I’ll take my name off this paper, if not then I can work on a last date. To employers, that qualifies as a conditional resignation.
- davorak 6y ago
  I read that, not clear without reading the email whether it was a formal offer to resign. If an employee tells their boss they have a plan to offer a resignation on x day or do not get y or are considering it they can fire the employee before then, but I assume they can not push around the day they offer a resignation. An employer not wanting to keep an employee who might soon resign is understandable of course. I am sure it can get fiddly on what counts as a formal offer to resign and that courts make calls one way or another based on ambiguous language. Without the email though it's not clear to me. For better or worse it comes across as Timnit Gebru bosses were eager to shoo her out the door though.
  - pb7 6y ago
    This isn’t having a beer with your buddies and spitballing plans. If you email your employer saying give me this or I resign, the employer can accept your resignation simply by saying no to your conditions. It’s grade school logic. They called her bluff and that’s why she’s salty about it. She signaled her intention to resign and due to her behavior with her reports, Google doesn’t want more of that on her way out so she got cut loose immediately.
    - 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

deanCommie 6y ago

Wife says to her programmer husband, "Go to the store and buy a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, buy a dozen." Husband returns with 12 loaves of bread. Most software engineers can read the above joke, and laugh at themselves, then go ahead and upvote your comment not realizing that it is EXACTLY THE SAME THING. Employee: "This is extremely important to me. If you can't address what is important to me, then I can't work here anymore" Google: "OK, thanks for your resignation". This is not okay. Google is "technically correct" - but it is appalling behavior that should make every Googler shake with discomfort. Employees are people. People can get dissatisfied. Frustrated. Angry. Sure, you can say companies don't owe anything to anyone because there is at-will employment. But the reality is unless we want to live in a dystopia, people should be allowed to voice concerns and anger and frustrations, and not be fired for making things uncomfortable or inconvenient.

sujinge9 6y ago
Sure, but you can't give an ultimatum like "... then I can't work here anymore" and not follow through with it.
4bpp 6y ago
The joke is a pretty good one, but what's the supposed parallel with the scenario at hand? There is a meaningful interpretation of "buy a dozen" that the wife intended to convey but the programmer fails to notice (because he lacks common-sense knowledge about typical purchase volumes of different items and/or is blinded by the parallelism of "buy a... if <condition>, buy a..."). What is the meaningful common-sense interpretation of "I can't work here anymore" (was that even the literal wording?) that Timnit intended and Google failed to recognise? If you are instead just saying that Google should have let it slide because it was just an emotional outburst ("anger and frustrations") and not meant to be taken seriously, well, in what context can we hold adults to their word at all? Email is written communication, not an offhand verbal remark uttered in a tense meeting in anger. You should be able to see what you are about to send while typing it, and have ample opportunity to look over it again before you press that "Send" button. If your ability to review your words has atrophied, perhaps under the influence of social media which encourages "unfiltered" stream-of-consciousness venting, then this ought to be on you, simply because it is doubtful that society can function without some possibility of making binding statements and we do not have anything more commitmental than email widely deployed (and operable at the pace of the modern workplace) in work-from-home times.

fmajid 6y ago

> Is accepting a resignation the same as firing someone? No. No COBRA benefits and usually no severance. Also the employee is not eligible for unemployment benefits.

throw__awvlilds 6y ago
I'm pretty sure if you resign you're still entitled to access the employers' health plan via COBRA? (Distinct issue from whether, as part of a severance package, the company agrees to pay for some/all of it)

bartread 6y ago

I tend to agree, but the following paragraphs suggest that had she not resigned she might have found herself on the wrong end of some sort of disciplinary process: > However, we believe the end of your employment should happen faster than your email reflects because certain aspects of the email you sent last night to non-management employees in the brain group reflect behavior that is inconsistent with the expectations of a Google manager. > As a result, we are accepting your resignation immediately, effective today. We will send your final paycheck to your address in Workday. When you return from your vacation, PeopleOps will reach out to you to coordinate the return of Google devices and assets. Her resignation certainly gave Google an easy out of all that hassle, but would I call this a firing? Perhaps not. If you're the employer you have to figure that if somebody's pissed off enough to (i) sue you whilst employed by you, (ii) write that kind of message to others working in their function or group, and (iii) now they've delivered an ultimatum you're unable or unwilling to meet, they're only going to cause more trouble if you make them work their notice period. If it were me in her boss's position I'd have got her out the door as fast as possible.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

loeg 6y ago

Accepting a resignation means Google doesn't have to pay unemployment benefits. But ultimately, it was their choice to let her go. And the immediateness of the decision and revocation of all access smells like how you treat an employee you're firing.