8 ms·

I'd never heard of this fight before, so I just looked it up. My interpretation is that he made that claim, Gebru responded by claiming that that was an overly

I'd never heard of this fight before, so I just looked it up. My interpretation is that he made that claim, Gebru responded by claiming that that was an overly reductionist view of things (given, presumably, the fact that biased assumptions could affect the coded assumptions as well as the training data), he maintained his opinion, and she felt frustrated that she didn't feel she was being listened to. I did not see her call him a racist, and I did not think either person was acting in bad faith; both seemed frustrated and unhappy that there was a disagreement. Am I missing anything?

throwaway-kmc 6y ago
Here’s a good summary: https://www.google.com/amp/s/syncedreview.com/2020/06/30/yann-lecun-quits-twitter-amid-acrimonious-exchanges-on-ai-bias/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/syncedreview.com/2020/06/30/yan... I think it’s clear Gebru was acting in bad faith and LeCunn was baffled and trying to deescalate. Gebru responds to each attempt to deescalate by a reply designed to further rile up Twitter, without actually talking to any of the points LeCunn makes. Virtually all of her replies are some variant of “you are wrong, but I won’t say why” and “listen to me because I am Black”.
- worker767424 6y ago
  I wouldn't be shocked if Google saw this drama, saw that she was offering to resign, and was like "that's a freebie."
  - thu2111 6y ago
    But that drama was some time ago. She should have been fired on the spot back then, but, at Google women are virtually unfireable, black women doubly so. Whatever she did to get canned like this must have been extreme. Either that or Google is learning how to hold these sorts of employees to the same standards as their less fashionable colleagues. Edit: incorrectly claimed the spat was before 2020, it wasn't. 2020 just feels like an incredibly long year.
    - rafram 6y ago
      > at Google women are virtually unfireable, black women doubly so. Huge, HUGE [citation needed].
      - thu2111 6y ago
        What do you expect me to cite to show that? I worked there and saw it for myself. That's the citation. But really, do you doubt it? It's a company that talks constantly about how hard it tries to boost the number of women and blacks working there. Firing them works against that goal.
        kthxbye123 6y ago
        On a scale of 1 - 10, how angry do you get at the thought of a black person arguing with you? You can be honest. How hard does it get your forehead vein throbbing? What if she's also a woman? I'm betting the very thought makes you turn tomato red.
        thu2111 6y ago
        Ah yes, the classic "if you're against affirmative action you're a racist" line. Knock it off. I'm the opposite of racist: the thought of arguing with a black woman doesn't bother me in the slightest. I'll happily argue with anyone. The racism here is in the behaviour of treating some people specially because they are of "wanted" races or genders. I'm criticising racism, not engaging in it. But clearly a lot of people especially in the US are so far gone they'll never recognise it.
        kthxbye123 6y ago
        Don’t think for a second you fool anyone, buddy.
- lame-robot-hoax 6y ago
  It seems like most of the other AI researchers, at least those mentioned in that summary, agreed with Gebru? So while Gebru may have been “acting in bad faith,” it seems that the consensus, at least as the article presents it, was that Yann was wrong.
  - throwaway-kmc 6y ago
    Maybe you’ve noticed that almost everyone who thinks this was probably justified is using a throwaway, and everyone who is claiming it was unjustified is not. Only one group stands to lose their careers here. The same is true of AI research Twitter.
- hintymad 6y ago
  The discussion shows that Gebru is a racist to the bone because she viewed everything from the racism angle. LeCunn could be wrong by attributing bias to statistical bias in data, but how is it bigotry without evidence? Yet, oh no, LeCunn is a racist in Gebru's eyes, and in this strange American culture, Gebru could just call anyone or any opinion she didn't like racist or racism. I'd say she deserved to be fired for she is a racist who's damning to a normal society.
  - berdario 6y ago
    Racism is discrimination based on race (from a position of power) Whom did Gebru discriminate against, based on their race? No one. That episode is unfortunate imho, but she only suspected racist rationales... Calling out racism does not make you a racist, just like calling something "fishy" does not make you grow fins and gills
    - hintymad 6y ago
      Calling out racism does not make one a racist, for sure. Labeling anyone who disagrees with her a racist, without even a slightly plausible evidence, makes her a racist because all she can see is race. You're right that that's not the standard definition of racism. It's a fair game, though, as people like Gebru pretty much uses racism as a weapon however they like.
      - berdario 6y ago
        > Labeling anyone who disagrees with her a racist Which she doesn't. Most notably, people here have been raising concern about the discussion with Yann Lecun, but that was also just a civil, if tense, discussion. You're better off not twisting the meaning of words to favor your argument, though. It'll just create more problems down the line
        hintymad 6y ago
        Fair point. "Any" is too strong a word that invites just one counterexample to get debunked. I'd say "in many cases" then, as demonstrated in her Twitter stream and her email. The words like "white men"( such a vile and irrational perspective), "oppressors", "racists" show up often. Case in point, a professor who tells his/her student that the student's life was easy, even though the student had to sleep only four hours a day. Lack of empathy, sure. It's racism without other evidence? Are you kidding me? And her paper was rejected and her immediate reaction is to demand the company to reveal the identity of every reviewer? Yeah, right.
- cmiles74 6y ago
  I have to disagree. I read the article posted above and this strikes me as an excessively critical view. I don't see Dr. Gebru acting in bad faith although they are clearly frustrated with the exchange. > Virtually all of her replies are some variant of “you are wrong, but I won’t say why” and “listen to me because I am Black”. I don't see that in the summary you posted.
SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
In Gebru's final thread on the topic (https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1276326634195259392 https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1276326634195259392), she lectured LeCun how to give a proper apology, stated that he was engaging in "pattern of marginalization" causing "incredible harm", and instructed him to educate himself and listen to Black and Brown people before speaking to her again.
- jiuahweruihawi 6y ago
  That's a shame, she only needed to add "lived experience" and "mansplaining" for me to fill in my "woke bigot weaponising her race and gender to shut down a valid discussion" bingo sheet.
  - dang 6y ago
    We've banned this account for using HN for ideological battle, which is against the site guidelines and not what this site is for. We've also banned a bunch of related accounts that were doing the same thing, including posting in the same thread. That's seriously abusive. Please don't create accounts to break HN's guidelines with! https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

throwaway-kmc 6y ago

Here’s a good summary: https://www.google.com/amp/s/syncedreview.com/2020/06/30/yann-lecun-quits-twitter-amid-acrimonious-exchanges-on-ai-bias/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/syncedreview.com/2020/06/30/yan... I think it’s clear Gebru was acting in bad faith and LeCunn was baffled and trying to deescalate. Gebru responds to each attempt to deescalate by a reply designed to further rile up Twitter, without actually talking to any of the points LeCunn makes. Virtually all of her replies are some variant of “you are wrong, but I won’t say why” and “listen to me because I am Black”.

worker767424 6y ago
I wouldn't be shocked if Google saw this drama, saw that she was offering to resign, and was like "that's a freebie."
- thu2111 6y ago
  But that drama was some time ago. She should have been fired on the spot back then, but, at Google women are virtually unfireable, black women doubly so. Whatever she did to get canned like this must have been extreme. Either that or Google is learning how to hold these sorts of employees to the same standards as their less fashionable colleagues. Edit: incorrectly claimed the spat was before 2020, it wasn't. 2020 just feels like an incredibly long year.
  - rafram 6y ago
    > at Google women are virtually unfireable, black women doubly so. Huge, HUGE [citation needed].
    - thu2111 6y ago
      What do you expect me to cite to show that? I worked there and saw it for myself. That's the citation. But really, do you doubt it? It's a company that talks constantly about how hard it tries to boost the number of women and blacks working there. Firing them works against that goal.
      - kthxbye123 6y ago
        On a scale of 1 - 10, how angry do you get at the thought of a black person arguing with you? You can be honest. How hard does it get your forehead vein throbbing? What if she's also a woman? I'm betting the very thought makes you turn tomato red.
        thu2111 6y ago
        Ah yes, the classic "if you're against affirmative action you're a racist" line. Knock it off. I'm the opposite of racist: the thought of arguing with a black woman doesn't bother me in the slightest. I'll happily argue with anyone. The racism here is in the behaviour of treating some people specially because they are of "wanted" races or genders. I'm criticising racism, not engaging in it. But clearly a lot of people especially in the US are so far gone they'll never recognise it.
        kthxbye123 6y ago
        Don’t think for a second you fool anyone, buddy.
lame-robot-hoax 6y ago
It seems like most of the other AI researchers, at least those mentioned in that summary, agreed with Gebru? So while Gebru may have been “acting in bad faith,” it seems that the consensus, at least as the article presents it, was that Yann was wrong.
- throwaway-kmc 6y ago
  Maybe you’ve noticed that almost everyone who thinks this was probably justified is using a throwaway, and everyone who is claiming it was unjustified is not. Only one group stands to lose their careers here. The same is true of AI research Twitter.
hintymad 6y ago
The discussion shows that Gebru is a racist to the bone because she viewed everything from the racism angle. LeCunn could be wrong by attributing bias to statistical bias in data, but how is it bigotry without evidence? Yet, oh no, LeCunn is a racist in Gebru's eyes, and in this strange American culture, Gebru could just call anyone or any opinion she didn't like racist or racism. I'd say she deserved to be fired for she is a racist who's damning to a normal society.
- berdario 6y ago
  Racism is discrimination based on race (from a position of power) Whom did Gebru discriminate against, based on their race? No one. That episode is unfortunate imho, but she only suspected racist rationales... Calling out racism does not make you a racist, just like calling something "fishy" does not make you grow fins and gills
  - hintymad 6y ago
    Calling out racism does not make one a racist, for sure. Labeling anyone who disagrees with her a racist, without even a slightly plausible evidence, makes her a racist because all she can see is race. You're right that that's not the standard definition of racism. It's a fair game, though, as people like Gebru pretty much uses racism as a weapon however they like.
    - berdario 6y ago
      > Labeling anyone who disagrees with her a racist Which she doesn't. Most notably, people here have been raising concern about the discussion with Yann Lecun, but that was also just a civil, if tense, discussion. You're better off not twisting the meaning of words to favor your argument, though. It'll just create more problems down the line
      - hintymad 6y ago
        Fair point. "Any" is too strong a word that invites just one counterexample to get debunked. I'd say "in many cases" then, as demonstrated in her Twitter stream and her email. The words like "white men"( such a vile and irrational perspective), "oppressors", "racists" show up often. Case in point, a professor who tells his/her student that the student's life was easy, even though the student had to sleep only four hours a day. Lack of empathy, sure. It's racism without other evidence? Are you kidding me? And her paper was rejected and her immediate reaction is to demand the company to reveal the identity of every reviewer? Yeah, right.
cmiles74 6y ago
I have to disagree. I read the article posted above and this strikes me as an excessively critical view. I don't see Dr. Gebru acting in bad faith although they are clearly frustrated with the exchange. > Virtually all of her replies are some variant of “you are wrong, but I won’t say why” and “listen to me because I am Black”. I don't see that in the summary you posted.

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago

In Gebru's final thread on the topic (https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1276326634195259392 https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1276326634195259392), she lectured LeCun how to give a proper apology, stated that he was engaging in "pattern of marginalization" causing "incredible harm", and instructed him to educate himself and listen to Black and Brown people before speaking to her again.

jiuahweruihawi 6y ago
That's a shame, she only needed to add "lived experience" and "mansplaining" for me to fill in my "woke bigot weaponising her race and gender to shut down a valid discussion" bingo sheet.
- dang 6y ago
  We've banned this account for using HN for ideological battle, which is against the site guidelines and not what this site is for. We've also banned a bunch of related accounts that were doing the same thing, including posting in the same thread. That's seriously abusive. Please don't create accounts to break HN's guidelines with! https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html