5 ms·

You're not wrong but with the crashes an actual redesign is needed.

by Geminidog 6y ago

Dylan16807 6y ago
The crashes wouldn't have happened with a better implementation of the same design.
- Geminidog 6y ago
  Probably but now that the public is aware of a physical flaw covered up by a control mechanism the physical flaw needs to be fixed. I'm not even clear what that fix boeing used to cover up this problem. The article didn't specify, that is a red flag.
  - Dylan16807 6y ago
    The engines being too low is not a physical flaw, and was not the cause of these crashes. The control mechanism caused the crashes, and control mechanisms can be fixed relatively easily.
    - Geminidog 6y ago
      This is categorically wrong. The engines being too low will kill everyone on the plane should the special control mechanism not exist. The control mechanism existed to cover up a physical flaw then proceeded to be the cause of crashes itself. If a control mechanism can easily be fixed... What was the exact fix? Literally tell me.
      - Dylan16807 6y ago
        > The engines being too low will kill everyone on the plane should the special control mechanism not exist. It makes the control curve slightly different, don't be so dramatic. > If a control mechanism can easily be fixed... What was the exact fix? Literally tell me. I'm not psychic, I can't tell you how they fixed it, but you can find a ton of people talking about how redundant sensors would have avoided the same issue. You could also have it be much more obvious when it's adjusting trim, because if the pilots were aware of what was happening they wouldn't have crashed either. from your other comment> Saying the control mechanism crashed the plane and just fixing that is like saying you didn't put enough duct tape over the real problem. Tape, and the equivalent of tape, is a valid solution to many problems if you have an expert analyze it.
        Geminidog 6y ago
        >It makes the control curve slightly different, don't be so dramatic. I'm not being drastic, the plane has an unconventional control system built to hide a physical flaw that is never an actual physical property on planes designed from the ground up. The plane will literally stall: https://www.thestreet.com/mishtalk/economics/boeing-737-max-major-design-flaws-not-a-software-failure https://www.thestreet.com/mishtalk/economics/boeing-737-max-... It's well known boeing used a hack to avoid costs of redesign. >Tape, and the equivalent of tape, is a valid solution to many problems if you have an expert analyze it. The experts who killed 300 people analyzed the mcas and also built it. No one will get on a plane covered in duck tape no matter how many experts analyzed it. >I'm not psychic, I can't tell you how they fixed it, Makes sense that you're not psychic. Likely you went to google at some point and tried to find out what that fix was and likely you found nothing. That's a red flag, a huge one. Being psychic is the only possible way you'll know what the engineers did to duct tape the whole design. At the very least this is something any wise man should know about before getting onto that plane.
        Dylan16807 6y ago
        The plane will stall unless you push the stick differently or adjust the trim. It's something you can compensate for. MCAS doesn't even adjust the trim very fast! It's a hack but that's mainly to avoid retraining, not because the design is inherently all that dangerous. > The experts who killed 300 people analyzed the mcas and also built it. It could be fair to avoid all planes coming from those experts. But if you don't trust them to fix a single flaw, why in god's name do you trust them to design an entirely new plane? This is not a reason to push for a redesign. > No one will get on a plane covered in duck tape no matter how many experts analyzed it. Ever heard of speed tape? Most people will either get on the plane when it's fixed, or they will never get on the plane. They're not going to care about the exact details. > Likely you went to google at some point and tried to find out what that fix was and likely you found nothing. That's a red flag, a huge one. Sure. Red flag. But a flag is far from conclusive. > At the very least this is something any wise man should know about before getting onto that plane. I'm wise enough to not play armchair plane engineer when my life is on the line. If I don't trust the process, then I'll wait for a certain number of flight hours instead. I'm not going to depend on my own ability to analyze plane design.
  - mlindner 6y ago
    The locations of the engine did not cause the crash.
    - Geminidog 6y ago
      The locations of the engine necessitated flawed control mechanism designs which caused the crash. The locations of the engine and a plane flown without mcas will also cause the plane to crash. The technical debt transferred over to the control mechanism and now all the engineers and people who worked on and funded the plane are responsible for killing over 300 people. These are peoples lives at stake. Fix the technical debt. Saying the control mechanism crashed the plane and just fixing that is like saying you didn't put enough duct tape over the real problem. Don't Cover it up.

You're not wrong but with the crashes an actual redesign is needed.

Dylan16807 6y ago

The crashes wouldn't have happened with a better implementation of the same design.

Geminidog 6y ago
Probably but now that the public is aware of a physical flaw covered up by a control mechanism the physical flaw needs to be fixed. I'm not even clear what that fix boeing used to cover up this problem. The article didn't specify, that is a red flag.
- Dylan16807 6y ago
  The engines being too low is not a physical flaw, and was not the cause of these crashes. The control mechanism caused the crashes, and control mechanisms can be fixed relatively easily.
  - Geminidog 6y ago
    This is categorically wrong. The engines being too low will kill everyone on the plane should the special control mechanism not exist. The control mechanism existed to cover up a physical flaw then proceeded to be the cause of crashes itself. If a control mechanism can easily be fixed... What was the exact fix? Literally tell me.
    - Dylan16807 6y ago
      > The engines being too low will kill everyone on the plane should the special control mechanism not exist. It makes the control curve slightly different, don't be so dramatic. > If a control mechanism can easily be fixed... What was the exact fix? Literally tell me. I'm not psychic, I can't tell you how they fixed it, but you can find a ton of people talking about how redundant sensors would have avoided the same issue. You could also have it be much more obvious when it's adjusting trim, because if the pilots were aware of what was happening they wouldn't have crashed either. from your other comment> Saying the control mechanism crashed the plane and just fixing that is like saying you didn't put enough duct tape over the real problem. Tape, and the equivalent of tape, is a valid solution to many problems if you have an expert analyze it.
      - Geminidog 6y ago
        >It makes the control curve slightly different, don't be so dramatic. I'm not being drastic, the plane has an unconventional control system built to hide a physical flaw that is never an actual physical property on planes designed from the ground up. The plane will literally stall: https://www.thestreet.com/mishtalk/economics/boeing-737-max-major-design-flaws-not-a-software-failure https://www.thestreet.com/mishtalk/economics/boeing-737-max-... It's well known boeing used a hack to avoid costs of redesign. >Tape, and the equivalent of tape, is a valid solution to many problems if you have an expert analyze it. The experts who killed 300 people analyzed the mcas and also built it. No one will get on a plane covered in duck tape no matter how many experts analyzed it. >I'm not psychic, I can't tell you how they fixed it, Makes sense that you're not psychic. Likely you went to google at some point and tried to find out what that fix was and likely you found nothing. That's a red flag, a huge one. Being psychic is the only possible way you'll know what the engineers did to duct tape the whole design. At the very least this is something any wise man should know about before getting onto that plane.
        Dylan16807 6y ago
        The plane will stall unless you push the stick differently or adjust the trim. It's something you can compensate for. MCAS doesn't even adjust the trim very fast! It's a hack but that's mainly to avoid retraining, not because the design is inherently all that dangerous. > The experts who killed 300 people analyzed the mcas and also built it. It could be fair to avoid all planes coming from those experts. But if you don't trust them to fix a single flaw, why in god's name do you trust them to design an entirely new plane? This is not a reason to push for a redesign. > No one will get on a plane covered in duck tape no matter how many experts analyzed it. Ever heard of speed tape? Most people will either get on the plane when it's fixed, or they will never get on the plane. They're not going to care about the exact details. > Likely you went to google at some point and tried to find out what that fix was and likely you found nothing. That's a red flag, a huge one. Sure. Red flag. But a flag is far from conclusive. > At the very least this is something any wise man should know about before getting onto that plane. I'm wise enough to not play armchair plane engineer when my life is on the line. If I don't trust the process, then I'll wait for a certain number of flight hours instead. I'm not going to depend on my own ability to analyze plane design.
- mlindner 6y ago
  The locations of the engine did not cause the crash.
  - Geminidog 6y ago
    The locations of the engine necessitated flawed control mechanism designs which caused the crash. The locations of the engine and a plane flown without mcas will also cause the plane to crash. The technical debt transferred over to the control mechanism and now all the engineers and people who worked on and funded the plane are responsible for killing over 300 people. These are peoples lives at stake. Fix the technical debt. Saying the control mechanism crashed the plane and just fixing that is like saying you didn't put enough duct tape over the real problem. Don't Cover it up.