5 ms·

I disagree, if this is passed, everybody break it and call your congress person / senators and complain that it was passed. disclaimer: also not a lawyer.

by auston 6y ago

arcticbull 6y ago
Too few people know enough about crypto, and also care enough, for you to get lost in a sea of folks breaking the same law. It'll be a short list of very loud, vocal, easy targets. I'd wanna be as far away from that as I could be. Especially since a very large use case for crypto - especially in non-custodial wallets - especially people avoiding KYC, is crime. The ratio of ancaps to criminals on this list is likely very low. [edit] The real risk of finding yourself on this shortlist of non-custodial wallets is suddenly finding yourself on the wrong side of the IRS. Most blockchains are pseudonymous, and the government has tools to track and de-pseudonymize, or at least map and aggregate - transactions. If the government wanted to go after you for breaking this law, they'd probably just throw together a quick list of people the IRS should start poking around at. They know as well as you do that you probably didn't report every transaction you've ever done on every exchange, DEX, or platform. That's tax fraud, straight up. Much easier to prove, and much harder to argue on merits. I've said this before, and I'll say it again: if your government is coming for you, no amount of magic beans in your computer will keep you or your value safe. If you don't trust your government you've got bigger problems than crypto. If you trust your government crypto is irrelevant. As Beria, Stalin's side-kick said, "Show me the man and I’ll find you the crime."
- floatingatoll 6y ago
  TIL that “ancap” is some sort of slang for, apparently, “anarcho-capitalists”, here.
  - __blockcipher__ 6y ago
    It’s slang for anarcho-capitalist/ism everywhere.
- Jorge1o1 6y ago
  I work at a bank and the mountain of anti money laundering / KYC regulations we have to deal with is mind-boggling. I’m not surprised that such a law is coming especially since in my view, the decentralized nature of crypto makes money laundering even easier. Even if you kept a blacklist of wallets with dirty money, I think it would be possible to spin up a chain of brand new wallets and quickly funnel coins through them before the blacklist could keep up in a way that would be impossible with fiat transactions and traditional banks. I could be wrong though, maybe someone’s got an algo for that. Opinions my own.
  - gruez 6y ago
    >I think it would be possible to spin up a chain of brand new wallets and quickly funnel coins through them before the blacklist could keep up in a way that would be impossible with fiat transactions and traditional banks Can't you spin up a chain of brand new offshore accounts/shell companies in a friendly jurisdiction and quickly funnel money through them before the blacklist could keep up?
    - arcticbull 6y ago
      This would work for some amount of time. However, foreign banks are unlikely to hold USD-type value without a correspondent banking relationship or a custodial banking relationship exposed to the US market (and hence US regulation). The reason many, especially smaller, banks don't want to do business with criminals is they fear they'd lose their access to the US market through a termination of these relationships. This would then push the bank into insolvency. I know this because all this happened to Tether, lol. There's been some documentation, likely as part of the NYAG lawsuit or the Paradise Papers leak -- or both. Noble initially refused to bank them for this reason, so they invested in Noble, who then took them on as customers. Their custodial bank (Wells, IIRC) told them to eat dirt, and it pushed Noble into insolvency.
    - Jorge1o1 6y ago
      Well that’s precisely why we have all these customer onboarding / AML regulations. To onboard trading clients (think hedge fund) I’ve seen compliance ask for corporate structure diagrams, lists of the major shareholders with bios, list of the board of directors, articles of incorporation, addresses, copies of the counterparty’s AML policy, etc.
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  > If you don't trust your government you've got bigger problems than crypto. If you trust your government crypto is irrelevant. This is far too black and white. You may trust your government not to engage in a vendetta against you for no reason and still not trust them not to pass onerous regulations that harm you unintentionally and then provide no recourse for the victims of that outcome.
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    Doesn't seem to be working in this case though?
    - feanaro 6y ago
      We don't know that yet since everything said so far is speculation.
      - arcticbull 6y ago
        Oh all I meant was the proposed legislation is a form of onerous regulation that harms folks, intentionally or otherwise, that offers no recourse - that crypto can’t help you out of. That likely extends outward IMO.
        AnthonyMouse 6y ago
        That's exactly why the proposed legislation is so problematic. It harms folks and offers no recourse... other than breaking the law. Then some of the innocent victims of the harm become criminals because they prefer that to suffering the harm at no fault of their own, and you introduce all of the problems inherent in black markets. I have yet to hear a solid argument for why it should be in all circumstances be regulated like investment securities even when only being used as currency (like cash).
        arcticbull 6y ago
        Literally nobody uses it as cash. nobody
- arisAlexis 6y ago
  Crime like downloading a movie from pirate Bay?
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    I wager way more people did that in its heyday than have a moral objection (rather than an, err, pragmatic one) to custodial wallets. Further, copyright infringement tends to be a low priority civil matter, while laundering billions of dollars tends to be a high priority criminal matter.
    - arisAlexis 6y ago
      the laundering of billions of dollars is usually done in, dollars which are totally anonymous rather than a transparent blockchain that transmits all your transactions to the feds.
      - arcticbull 6y ago
        Only because bitcoin isn't used by anyone. I'm not willing to wait for that to switch.

I disagree, if this is passed, everybody break it and call your congress person / senators and complain that it was passed. disclaimer: also not a lawyer.

by auston 6y ago

I disagree, if this is passed, everybody break it and call your congress person / senators and complain that it was passed. disclaimer: also not a lawyer.

arcticbull 6y ago

Too few people know enough about crypto, and also care enough, for you to get lost in a sea of folks breaking the same law. It'll be a short list of very loud, vocal, easy targets. I'd wanna be as far away from that as I could be. Especially since a very large use case for crypto - especially in non-custodial wallets - especially people avoiding KYC, is crime. The ratio of ancaps to criminals on this list is likely very low. [edit] The real risk of finding yourself on this shortlist of non-custodial wallets is suddenly finding yourself on the wrong side of the IRS. Most blockchains are pseudonymous, and the government has tools to track and de-pseudonymize, or at least map and aggregate - transactions. If the government wanted to go after you for breaking this law, they'd probably just throw together a quick list of people the IRS should start poking around at. They know as well as you do that you probably didn't report every transaction you've ever done on every exchange, DEX, or platform. That's tax fraud, straight up. Much easier to prove, and much harder to argue on merits. I've said this before, and I'll say it again: if your government is coming for you, no amount of magic beans in your computer will keep you or your value safe. If you don't trust your government you've got bigger problems than crypto. If you trust your government crypto is irrelevant. As Beria, Stalin's side-kick said, "Show me the man and I’ll find you the crime."

floatingatoll 6y ago
TIL that “ancap” is some sort of slang for, apparently, “anarcho-capitalists”, here.
- __blockcipher__ 6y ago
  It’s slang for anarcho-capitalist/ism everywhere.
Jorge1o1 6y ago
I work at a bank and the mountain of anti money laundering / KYC regulations we have to deal with is mind-boggling. I’m not surprised that such a law is coming especially since in my view, the decentralized nature of crypto makes money laundering even easier. Even if you kept a blacklist of wallets with dirty money, I think it would be possible to spin up a chain of brand new wallets and quickly funnel coins through them before the blacklist could keep up in a way that would be impossible with fiat transactions and traditional banks. I could be wrong though, maybe someone’s got an algo for that. Opinions my own.
- gruez 6y ago
  >I think it would be possible to spin up a chain of brand new wallets and quickly funnel coins through them before the blacklist could keep up in a way that would be impossible with fiat transactions and traditional banks Can't you spin up a chain of brand new offshore accounts/shell companies in a friendly jurisdiction and quickly funnel money through them before the blacklist could keep up?
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    This would work for some amount of time. However, foreign banks are unlikely to hold USD-type value without a correspondent banking relationship or a custodial banking relationship exposed to the US market (and hence US regulation). The reason many, especially smaller, banks don't want to do business with criminals is they fear they'd lose their access to the US market through a termination of these relationships. This would then push the bank into insolvency. I know this because all this happened to Tether, lol. There's been some documentation, likely as part of the NYAG lawsuit or the Paradise Papers leak -- or both. Noble initially refused to bank them for this reason, so they invested in Noble, who then took them on as customers. Their custodial bank (Wells, IIRC) told them to eat dirt, and it pushed Noble into insolvency.
  - Jorge1o1 6y ago
    Well that’s precisely why we have all these customer onboarding / AML regulations. To onboard trading clients (think hedge fund) I’ve seen compliance ask for corporate structure diagrams, lists of the major shareholders with bios, list of the board of directors, articles of incorporation, addresses, copies of the counterparty’s AML policy, etc.
AnthonyMouse 6y ago
> If you don't trust your government you've got bigger problems than crypto. If you trust your government crypto is irrelevant. This is far too black and white. You may trust your government not to engage in a vendetta against you for no reason and still not trust them not to pass onerous regulations that harm you unintentionally and then provide no recourse for the victims of that outcome.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  Doesn't seem to be working in this case though?
  - feanaro 6y ago
    We don't know that yet since everything said so far is speculation.
    - arcticbull 6y ago
      Oh all I meant was the proposed legislation is a form of onerous regulation that harms folks, intentionally or otherwise, that offers no recourse - that crypto can’t help you out of. That likely extends outward IMO.
      - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
        That's exactly why the proposed legislation is so problematic. It harms folks and offers no recourse... other than breaking the law. Then some of the innocent victims of the harm become criminals because they prefer that to suffering the harm at no fault of their own, and you introduce all of the problems inherent in black markets. I have yet to hear a solid argument for why it should be in all circumstances be regulated like investment securities even when only being used as currency (like cash).
        arcticbull 6y ago
        Literally nobody uses it as cash. nobody
arisAlexis 6y ago
Crime like downloading a movie from pirate Bay?
- arcticbull 6y ago
  I wager way more people did that in its heyday than have a moral objection (rather than an, err, pragmatic one) to custodial wallets. Further, copyright infringement tends to be a low priority civil matter, while laundering billions of dollars tends to be a high priority criminal matter.
  - arisAlexis 6y ago
    the laundering of billions of dollars is usually done in, dollars which are totally anonymous rather than a transparent blockchain that transmits all your transactions to the feds.
    - arcticbull 6y ago
      Only because bitcoin isn't used by anyone. I'm not willing to wait for that to switch.