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This just reiterates what the parent comment said. In this case up to 49% of all workers who did not want to use tabs will be forced to.

by wwtrv 6y ago

black_puppydog 6y ago
That's not gonna be a very successful union then. The unions I know that actually work are near-universal, but you're never technically required to join. However, at certain levels of unionization, peer pressure kicks in because the "freeriders" effectively get protection from the union without pulling their weight.
- sneak 6y ago
  > peer pressure kicks in because the "freeriders" effectively get protection from the union without pulling their weight. I would much rather the peer pressure be applied to those writing the checks, by their competition.
  - lucian1900 6y ago
    Their peers have the same material interests to keep wages low in order to keep profits high, so they rarely side with the workers. There are many documented cases of explicit collusion, even. It's why it's important for workers to act collectively. Since they can threaten the owners' profits through strike, there is much more leverage.
    - sneak 6y ago
      I'm wary of centralized power of any kind, but explicitly coordinated centralized power (in the form of industry-wide unions) scares me just as much as explicitly-illegal-to-coordinate-but-aligned-incentives power in the form of a set of a few gigantic employers.
      - lucian1900 6y ago
        And yet the unions are democratic, but the employers are not. You can vote out the union leadership and all important decisions require a ballot. Power structures can be abused, but they can also be a way to concentrate the will of many to achieve something that cannot be done individually. What's important is the material incentives of those involved. Even if they were to be insincere (in which case they often are removed), union leadership are incentivised to raise the wages of all members since dues are the main way they are funded. Employers are always incentivised to reduce wages as much as they can get away with, since they wish to maximise profits.
- Supermancho 6y ago
  > The unions I know that actually work are near-universal, but you're never technically required to join "that actually work" - what does this mean? There are lots of functioning unions that require you to join, to work. Teacher's Unions & Screen Actor's Guild immediately spring to mind.
lucian1900 6y ago
The alternative is having no democratic power over the workplace at all. Being in the 49% that disagreed with something is still better than your boss mandating the choice instead. In practice, it’s also quite rare for workers to strongly disagree among themselves. Disagreements tend to happen between groups with different material incentives, so largely between workers and owners/management.
- renewiltord 6y ago
  > Being in the 49% that disagreed with something is still better than your boss mandating the choice instead. No, it really isn't because of ecosystem effects. Per-company unions find themselves rapidly affiliated with industry unions and then pan-industry unions. The net effect of this is that in non-union industries you can go somewhere else and negotiate with a new boss. In union industries you go somewhere else and you're still subject to the same 51%.
  - lucian1900 6y ago
    If there are other bosses available. If they are in any way different. If you’re lucky to stand out. In practice, you’re far more likely to agree with fellow workers than with bosses. You have material interests largely in common, not largely opposed. That’s why unionised workplaces and industries have measurably better pay and conditions.
    - renewiltord 6y ago
      Operating in the aggregate is a fool's game. I am not the arbitrary worker who has more in common with the arbitrary worker. I am an immigrant with many immigrant friends from various countries. The arbitrary American worker wants me out and wants my friends out. He is no ally of mine. I will not stand with him. There are other bosses. They are different. And my industry is superior to most unionized industries so I don't care.
      - lucian1900 6y ago

This just reiterates what the parent comment said. In this case up to 49% of all workers who did not want to use tabs will be forced to.

by wwtrv 6y ago

This just reiterates what the parent comment said. In this case up to 49% of all workers who did not want to use tabs will be forced to.

black_puppydog 6y ago

That's not gonna be a very successful union then. The unions I know that actually work are near-universal, but you're never technically required to join. However, at certain levels of unionization, peer pressure kicks in because the "freeriders" effectively get protection from the union without pulling their weight.

sneak 6y ago
> peer pressure kicks in because the "freeriders" effectively get protection from the union without pulling their weight. I would much rather the peer pressure be applied to those writing the checks, by their competition.
- lucian1900 6y ago
  Their peers have the same material interests to keep wages low in order to keep profits high, so they rarely side with the workers. There are many documented cases of explicit collusion, even. It's why it's important for workers to act collectively. Since they can threaten the owners' profits through strike, there is much more leverage.
  - sneak 6y ago
    I'm wary of centralized power of any kind, but explicitly coordinated centralized power (in the form of industry-wide unions) scares me just as much as explicitly-illegal-to-coordinate-but-aligned-incentives power in the form of a set of a few gigantic employers.
    - lucian1900 6y ago
      And yet the unions are democratic, but the employers are not. You can vote out the union leadership and all important decisions require a ballot. Power structures can be abused, but they can also be a way to concentrate the will of many to achieve something that cannot be done individually. What's important is the material incentives of those involved. Even if they were to be insincere (in which case they often are removed), union leadership are incentivised to raise the wages of all members since dues are the main way they are funded. Employers are always incentivised to reduce wages as much as they can get away with, since they wish to maximise profits.
Supermancho 6y ago
> The unions I know that actually work are near-universal, but you're never technically required to join "that actually work" - what does this mean? There are lots of functioning unions that require you to join, to work. Teacher's Unions & Screen Actor's Guild immediately spring to mind.

lucian1900 6y ago

The alternative is having no democratic power over the workplace at all. Being in the 49% that disagreed with something is still better than your boss mandating the choice instead. In practice, it’s also quite rare for workers to strongly disagree among themselves. Disagreements tend to happen between groups with different material incentives, so largely between workers and owners/management.

renewiltord 6y ago
> Being in the 49% that disagreed with something is still better than your boss mandating the choice instead. No, it really isn't because of ecosystem effects. Per-company unions find themselves rapidly affiliated with industry unions and then pan-industry unions. The net effect of this is that in non-union industries you can go somewhere else and negotiate with a new boss. In union industries you go somewhere else and you're still subject to the same 51%.
- lucian1900 6y ago
  If there are other bosses available. If they are in any way different. If you’re lucky to stand out. In practice, you’re far more likely to agree with fellow workers than with bosses. You have material interests largely in common, not largely opposed. That’s why unionised workplaces and industries have measurably better pay and conditions.
  - renewiltord 6y ago
    Operating in the aggregate is a fool's game. I am not the arbitrary worker who has more in common with the arbitrary worker. I am an immigrant with many immigrant friends from various countries. The arbitrary American worker wants me out and wants my friends out. He is no ally of mine. I will not stand with him. There are other bosses. They are different. And my industry is superior to most unionized industries so I don't care.
    - lucian1900 6y ago