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> No, you are being influenced by media, which convinces you that things are a proxy for happiness and good relationships The Fight Club line has always really

> No, you are being influenced by media, which convinces you that things are a proxy for happiness and good relationships The Fight Club line has always really resonated with me: "We work jobs we hate to buy shit we don't need" Live below your means. Tune out from all the consumerism. Suddenly you find that you have enough savings built up that you could support yourself for multiple years without working. Now you are no longer willing to put up with as much at work. Oddly, this builds a sort of respect from people and they bother you less. Now you have excellent work life balance and more than you could ever want. And really the key to it all is just not wanting so much. (Also try to keep the freak-accident / illness destroying your life type stuff out your mind.)

lotsofpulp 6y ago
This works without kids. If you have kids, then typically you desire to give them the best available options, and that then means living in higher priced neighborhoods with higher achieving student populations. And then your kid befriends another kid whose parents are doctors/lawyers/engineers/business owners, and they want to don vacation or camp with them and you need to pony up a few hundred or thousand dollars and so on and so forth.
- war1025 6y ago
  > This is fine, until you have kids I have three. If anything they have more options, they just have less concrete things.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    Perhaps, but the common wisdom is to buy the "cheapest house in the best neighborhood", or "its who you know, not what you know" or "you are the friends you keep". Maybe those aren't true, maybe they're true up to a certain point, but in my experience, people will stretch their budget to put their kids in the better schools, and the rat race starts there. This might not be an issue if you're already a dual professional household earning $200k+ or something where you're deciding between $600k vs $1M houses, but more for whether or not a $80k income family should stretch and buy a $400k house or stick to a $300k house. (numbers aren't accurate, just trying to show that there exists a tier of society that does have to make those tough choices between living comfortably within their means and offering their kids a meaningfully higher probability of future advancement). I used to meet people in the NYC area who commuted 1+ hour each way everyday to work 8AM to 6PM at least, they were all doing it so their kids go to the best school district they could afford. I felt sad for them since it basically meant very little time with the kids during the weekdays, no gym, no visiting friends/family, cooking, but they all did it.
- bobthepanda 6y ago
  Even so, there’s a lot of decently affordable “good enough” where the difference between that and “best available” is marginal compared to the cost increase. The most obvious and probably biggest expense item (at least in the US) would be tertiary education, but having been out a few years I don’t really notice what the additional benefit was of top-tier private university vs cheap state university, since I know plenty of state schoolers making FAANG money and plenty of Ivy Leaguers struggling to find jobs. Though at least for me the primary/secondary property race you describe was not an issue, since I went to school in NYC, which has district wide school choice for middle school and universal school choice for high school. (NYC is a million kids so the city is split into districts for ease of administration.) Elementary school was geographically defined, but I also went to a school with a C rating, and plenty of people from that school ended up fine.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    It gets pretty subjective when talking about which benefits are worth what, but in general, the more resourceful your network is, the more resources you have. There probably is a point where "best available" isn't worth it, but I think for many people, they still feel that they need to do whatever they can. NYC is a great example, where unless your kid makes it into Stuyvesant or Brooklyn Tech or equivalent, many higher income parents feel compelled to move to the suburbs. Or even the current uproar where they diminished the testing to get into those schools.
  - Brian_K_White 6y ago
    I like to think of this "good enough" thing by calling everything beyond "good enough" as irresponsible, and actually sabotaging those very same kids' future needs by squandering your (their) resources today on things which can not actually be justified. That way, even if you were subject to feeling guilt over not providing the very best of everything, you can satisfy it this way. "good enough" and "justified" must consciously and explicitly include some pie slice for "non-essentials" though. Some amount of "non-essentials" are in fact essential. Anything else is simply not living. So, once in a while, you do splurge on the expensive weekend.
- 1996 6y ago
  > This works without kids. If you have kids, then typically you desire to give them the best available options Let me quote you one of my favorite posts: "You say 'I can't do XYZ because I have kids and a mortgage?' - well maybe you should have thought about the long term ramifications of your actions."
  - claudiulodro 6y ago
    Long term ramifications like the continued survival of the human race or a working economy when you're old and retired? It's in society's best interest that a reasonable amount of children are born each year.
    - 1996 6y ago
      You certainly know the concept of externalities, like pollution. If you don't, it's like how fixing your car exhaust brings you very little personal benefits. But if nobody did, smog would make your life miserable. Kids are just the same - except the other way around! So personally, when I'm old and retired, I plan to depend on the work your kids (and the kids of other people who also generously considered the "continued survival of the human race") while in the meantime maximizing the benefits that come from the freedom of not having kids. You may not like this freeloader spirit, and governments generally encourage people to have kids by various means ("working economy, GDP growth and all that are important after all!). But as it's not illegal to "abstain" from the rat race, I do not care much :)
      - malinens 6y ago
        This can backfire for you later. Read about what older people think about life choices... rarely who say they are glad they don't have children...
- khalilravanna 6y ago
  Imo it’s the same thing. It all goes back to the individual, the parent in this case. The parent needs to teach and model to the kids that a focus on wealth and material “stuff” is meaningless and leads to unhappiness. Not saying that’s easy—-it’s hard to teach yourself and live these values alone—- but it’s an extension of the same idea. It’s spreading the values out to your own personal community starting with your family. It’s a really noble goal because it has a ripple effect.
  - polishdude20 6y ago
    Yeah it's not like living this sort of life without kids is good and pure but with kids it's neglect. If you raise your kid with the same mindset as you, you now have a kid who also doesn't want for much and is able to live a happy life unencumbered by needless material wants.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    The goal is to surround your kid with the other kids who will be as good of an influence as possible. I'm not saying you won't find kids like that everywhere, but generally, the higher the income of the parents (up to a point), the likelier the parents are to have taught their kids to value education and other things that will help them succeed. And so to maximize this probability, people stretch themselves to live in neighborhoods bidding against other people also stretching themselves to live in the "best" neighborhood they can afford. I teach my kids that it might be a poor ROI to work for material stuff, but I do teach them the importance of wealth in being able to obtain resources in the future.
- analyte123 6y ago
  Agreed. The sort of critique in this article feels a little stale. It's easy to convince someone that buying luxury cars is wasteful status-signaling. It's not so easy to convince me that raising kids in a safe neighborhood with good schools is wasteful, or that it is getting any cheaper to do so, or the consequences of failing to do so are getting any better.
- georgeecollins 6y ago
  As a parent I have experienced that people always try to guilt you into spending too much on your kid. Too much for education, too much for health, too much for entertainment and enrichment. Because you love them, and it isn't you, it is hard to know where the line is. So people exploit you ruthlessly.
ouid 6y ago
Well, not more than you could want...
swiley 6y ago
How do you deal with paying rent to live within a reasonable distance of your job in the meantime?
- war1025 6y ago
  I live in the Midwest, so cost of living isn't really an issue.
icandoit 6y ago
Think of this equation: happiness = things_you_have - things_you_want It's much easier to reduce your desires than it is to buy new stuff. Your resources are scarce and your desires infinite. If you can convince yourself you have everything you want already nothing can touch you. Write down a list of reasons to not buy the new hotness. Stoicism has more to say on this, for example negative visualization. If you feel upset with your spouse or kids imagine them being hit by a car and dying in your arms. Car or truck? Did the car stop, or speed off? Burial or cremation? What will you say to your family, their friends? Manufacture details and explore their emotional impact. The frustration just evaporates.
- loopz 6y ago
  It sounds corny, but happiness is something you decide, not because of something. In all situations, you can choose to embrace your experiences and do everything you can about them to the fullest, or not. This can take an instant, and it can take a lifetime. Whenever we can't feel comfortable, we can do stuff we know further the constructive narrative of our lives. This narrative when nurtured and fed, will grow as exponential potential, unseen until unleashed on the world. The nurturing and sharpening of your own willpower, requires to leave outcomes to the higher good, trust and faith in that you've put in your part and that you continue to charge up.
  - loa_in_ 6y ago
    I think I can sum up your point as: happiness and satisfaction are two different things. Satisfaction is fleeting, and happiness can be had anytime except when someone actively opposes us - moves us when we want to stand still or stops us when we want to go. We're happy as long as we're going vaguely where we know we should be able to, to get what gives us satisfaction
    - loopz 6y ago
      It's a very basic principle: If someone is immobile, sitting and only resting, not doing what they're supposed to do, they may become deeply depressed and unhappy people. If you go for your quest in life, you may become very fulfilled and happy even when failing to obtain any end goals. There are of course no guarantees or strict rules in life, so are just very general cause-and-effects in play.

lotsofpulp 6y ago

This works without kids. If you have kids, then typically you desire to give them the best available options, and that then means living in higher priced neighborhoods with higher achieving student populations. And then your kid befriends another kid whose parents are doctors/lawyers/engineers/business owners, and they want to don vacation or camp with them and you need to pony up a few hundred or thousand dollars and so on and so forth.

war1025 6y ago
> This is fine, until you have kids I have three. If anything they have more options, they just have less concrete things.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  Perhaps, but the common wisdom is to buy the "cheapest house in the best neighborhood", or "its who you know, not what you know" or "you are the friends you keep". Maybe those aren't true, maybe they're true up to a certain point, but in my experience, people will stretch their budget to put their kids in the better schools, and the rat race starts there. This might not be an issue if you're already a dual professional household earning $200k+ or something where you're deciding between $600k vs $1M houses, but more for whether or not a $80k income family should stretch and buy a $400k house or stick to a $300k house. (numbers aren't accurate, just trying to show that there exists a tier of society that does have to make those tough choices between living comfortably within their means and offering their kids a meaningfully higher probability of future advancement). I used to meet people in the NYC area who commuted 1+ hour each way everyday to work 8AM to 6PM at least, they were all doing it so their kids go to the best school district they could afford. I felt sad for them since it basically meant very little time with the kids during the weekdays, no gym, no visiting friends/family, cooking, but they all did it.
bobthepanda 6y ago
Even so, there’s a lot of decently affordable “good enough” where the difference between that and “best available” is marginal compared to the cost increase. The most obvious and probably biggest expense item (at least in the US) would be tertiary education, but having been out a few years I don’t really notice what the additional benefit was of top-tier private university vs cheap state university, since I know plenty of state schoolers making FAANG money and plenty of Ivy Leaguers struggling to find jobs. Though at least for me the primary/secondary property race you describe was not an issue, since I went to school in NYC, which has district wide school choice for middle school and universal school choice for high school. (NYC is a million kids so the city is split into districts for ease of administration.) Elementary school was geographically defined, but I also went to a school with a C rating, and plenty of people from that school ended up fine.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  It gets pretty subjective when talking about which benefits are worth what, but in general, the more resourceful your network is, the more resources you have. There probably is a point where "best available" isn't worth it, but I think for many people, they still feel that they need to do whatever they can. NYC is a great example, where unless your kid makes it into Stuyvesant or Brooklyn Tech or equivalent, many higher income parents feel compelled to move to the suburbs. Or even the current uproar where they diminished the testing to get into those schools.
- Brian_K_White 6y ago
  I like to think of this "good enough" thing by calling everything beyond "good enough" as irresponsible, and actually sabotaging those very same kids' future needs by squandering your (their) resources today on things which can not actually be justified. That way, even if you were subject to feeling guilt over not providing the very best of everything, you can satisfy it this way. "good enough" and "justified" must consciously and explicitly include some pie slice for "non-essentials" though. Some amount of "non-essentials" are in fact essential. Anything else is simply not living. So, once in a while, you do splurge on the expensive weekend.
1996 6y ago
> This works without kids. If you have kids, then typically you desire to give them the best available options Let me quote you one of my favorite posts: "You say 'I can't do XYZ because I have kids and a mortgage?' - well maybe you should have thought about the long term ramifications of your actions."
- claudiulodro 6y ago
  Long term ramifications like the continued survival of the human race or a working economy when you're old and retired? It's in society's best interest that a reasonable amount of children are born each year.
  - 1996 6y ago
    You certainly know the concept of externalities, like pollution. If you don't, it's like how fixing your car exhaust brings you very little personal benefits. But if nobody did, smog would make your life miserable. Kids are just the same - except the other way around! So personally, when I'm old and retired, I plan to depend on the work your kids (and the kids of other people who also generously considered the "continued survival of the human race") while in the meantime maximizing the benefits that come from the freedom of not having kids. You may not like this freeloader spirit, and governments generally encourage people to have kids by various means ("working economy, GDP growth and all that are important after all!). But as it's not illegal to "abstain" from the rat race, I do not care much :)
    - malinens 6y ago
      This can backfire for you later. Read about what older people think about life choices... rarely who say they are glad they don't have children...
khalilravanna 6y ago
Imo it’s the same thing. It all goes back to the individual, the parent in this case. The parent needs to teach and model to the kids that a focus on wealth and material “stuff” is meaningless and leads to unhappiness. Not saying that’s easy—-it’s hard to teach yourself and live these values alone—- but it’s an extension of the same idea. It’s spreading the values out to your own personal community starting with your family. It’s a really noble goal because it has a ripple effect.
- polishdude20 6y ago
  Yeah it's not like living this sort of life without kids is good and pure but with kids it's neglect. If you raise your kid with the same mindset as you, you now have a kid who also doesn't want for much and is able to live a happy life unencumbered by needless material wants.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  The goal is to surround your kid with the other kids who will be as good of an influence as possible. I'm not saying you won't find kids like that everywhere, but generally, the higher the income of the parents (up to a point), the likelier the parents are to have taught their kids to value education and other things that will help them succeed. And so to maximize this probability, people stretch themselves to live in neighborhoods bidding against other people also stretching themselves to live in the "best" neighborhood they can afford. I teach my kids that it might be a poor ROI to work for material stuff, but I do teach them the importance of wealth in being able to obtain resources in the future.
analyte123 6y ago
Agreed. The sort of critique in this article feels a little stale. It's easy to convince someone that buying luxury cars is wasteful status-signaling. It's not so easy to convince me that raising kids in a safe neighborhood with good schools is wasteful, or that it is getting any cheaper to do so, or the consequences of failing to do so are getting any better.
georgeecollins 6y ago
As a parent I have experienced that people always try to guilt you into spending too much on your kid. Too much for education, too much for health, too much for entertainment and enrichment. Because you love them, and it isn't you, it is hard to know where the line is. So people exploit you ruthlessly.

ouid 6y ago

Well, not more than you could want...

swiley 6y ago

How do you deal with paying rent to live within a reasonable distance of your job in the meantime?

war1025 6y ago
I live in the Midwest, so cost of living isn't really an issue.

icandoit 6y ago

Think of this equation: happiness = things_you_have - things_you_want It's much easier to reduce your desires than it is to buy new stuff. Your resources are scarce and your desires infinite. If you can convince yourself you have everything you want already nothing can touch you. Write down a list of reasons to not buy the new hotness. Stoicism has more to say on this, for example negative visualization. If you feel upset with your spouse or kids imagine them being hit by a car and dying in your arms. Car or truck? Did the car stop, or speed off? Burial or cremation? What will you say to your family, their friends? Manufacture details and explore their emotional impact. The frustration just evaporates.

loopz 6y ago
It sounds corny, but happiness is something you decide, not because of something. In all situations, you can choose to embrace your experiences and do everything you can about them to the fullest, or not. This can take an instant, and it can take a lifetime. Whenever we can't feel comfortable, we can do stuff we know further the constructive narrative of our lives. This narrative when nurtured and fed, will grow as exponential potential, unseen until unleashed on the world. The nurturing and sharpening of your own willpower, requires to leave outcomes to the higher good, trust and faith in that you've put in your part and that you continue to charge up.
- loa_in_ 6y ago
  I think I can sum up your point as: happiness and satisfaction are two different things. Satisfaction is fleeting, and happiness can be had anytime except when someone actively opposes us - moves us when we want to stand still or stops us when we want to go. We're happy as long as we're going vaguely where we know we should be able to, to get what gives us satisfaction
  - loopz 6y ago
    It's a very basic principle: If someone is immobile, sitting and only resting, not doing what they're supposed to do, they may become deeply depressed and unhappy people. If you go for your quest in life, you may become very fulfilled and happy even when failing to obtain any end goals. There are of course no guarantees or strict rules in life, so are just very general cause-and-effects in play.