18 ms·

How the CCP Does Job Promotions

124 points by erentz 6y ago

NikolaeVarius 6y ago
Interesting. I have no specific reason to distrust this piece but I do wish there could be cited sources or corroboration. Also I wonder how much of this could be applied to western democracies as well
justinzollars 6y ago
China is very well managed. San Francisco, where I live is perhaps the worst managed place on earth. The way the Chinese are able to complete infrastructure is something we should seriously study, in addition to how they operate their government to support such projects. In San Francisco for example, we are undertaking a street repair of 19th street that will take an estimated 2 years. My best guess is that it will actually take a decade to complete, like the van ness project. This is simply a modification of a sewer system and a street re-pavement - nothing new. China could complete this in a week. The west is slow and we are in decline. China is growing fast.
- inquirerofsorts 6y ago
  The comments you have attracted are hilarious. It's not worth even attempting to initiate dialogue with such type of people. Here is the Chinese high speed rail built in the last decade, it is not propaganda, it's literally something you can buy a ticket for and travel on at 350 km/h right now. I truly worry for Americans incapable of seeing what is happening in the rest of the world. https://image5.sixthtone.com/image/5/4/861.gif https://image5.sixthtone.com/image/5/4/861.gif
  - artificialLimbs 6y ago
    Does the train pass by the gulags?
    - cambalache 6y ago
      Well, there is a McDonalds at Guantanamo , so everything is possible
    - Rapzid 6y ago
      The gulag trains happen to pass through the residential and commercial districts.
    - empthought 6y ago
      Pretty smug-sounding for someone living in the nation with 5% of the world’s population but 25% of the world’s prisoners.
      - artificialLimbs 6y ago
        Yes, I feel fortunate that I can say such things without being cloth-sacked away. I'm not exactly pro-prison, but so far I haven't heard any alternatives that I believe would work as a solution to violent crime. I'm open to suggestions. It is certainly the case that the U.S. has too many laws.
        empthought 6y ago
        You could totally say that in China as a Chinese citizen and nothing would happen to you.
        ghomrassen 6y ago
        Not on weibo.
        empthought 6y ago
        I didn’t say nothing would happen to his post... but then Zuck and Jack do the same thing in this here land of freedom...
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > Here is the Chinese high speed rail built in the last decade, it is not propaganda, it's literally something you can buy a ticket for and travel on at 350 km/h right now. Yeah, its nice. Authoritarian regimes usually have some nice prestige projects to show, which is really nice if you are a foreigner they are trying to impress, or a local that is in favor with the regime. Not so much if you are out-of-favor, whether because you opposed the particular approach they took for the prestige project or for some unrelated reason. But, as much as I like HSR and wish the US would do it, emulating China -- whose ability to do it isn't a mystery needing study, but well-understood -- isn't a cost worth paying for it.
    - Gwypaas 6y ago
      No need to be authoritarian. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/High_Speed_Railroad_Map_of_Europe.svg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/High_Spe...
  - justinzollars 6y ago
    (op here) Thanks. The idea of not being number one is a difficult notion for people to reconcile.
  - bpt3 6y ago
    I don't see anyone claiming China didn't build high speed rail. I do see a number of people questioning the parent poster's metric for evaluating the future of China and the west, when many countries in the west also have high speed rail systems and that focus on one measurement of success is probably at least a little myopic.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > The way the Chinese are able to complete infrastructure is something we should seriously study, in addition to how they operate their government to support such projects. Why? I mean, its not news that top-down authoritarianism is very good at doing whatever the top decides needs done without considering anyone else's concerns or interests, this isn't something that needs study. And there are no shortages of places practicing that to decamp to if that is your preference for style of government.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- icandoit 6y ago
  A positive spin on this is that everyday people are so wealthy, savvy, and time-rich that they spontaneously organize and campaign to shut down infrastructure projects they don't like. When it's keeping the "other" out it's gross, but when they are shutting down pointless vanity projects like a sculpture park no one wants maybe that's democracy as advertised.
- hpoe 6y ago
  I agree it is amazing how well you can manage things when you can "reconcile" any worker complaints, very quickly. When those who are known to oppose or object to your plans are "reassigned" to a post in the Gobi. And who of course would object when doing so would ding your "social credit" score and restrict your right to do things like travel, or access the internet. I agree that single party states run very well, after all when you don't have to worry about pesky freedoms or rights it's amazing what you can accomplish. Next up President Xi Jinping has a 99% approval rating. How does China produce such beloved politicians?
  - whatshisface 6y ago
    It baffles me how Americans can say, (paraphrasing), "on one hand it is illegal for Chinese journalists to report on public project failures, but on the other hand, I haven't heard of any public project failures."
    - bobthepanda 6y ago
      That’s not what the parent comment said at all? Americans know very well that their public sector fails to execute projects on time and on budget. They just don’t think the tradeoffs to convert to the Chinese system are worth it, nor are the benefits of the Chinese system exclusive to that system.
      - whatshisface 6y ago
        >That’s not what the parent comment said at all? It was written to agree with the parent, not disagree. Yes, that does break from the normal comment thread cadence of agreement on odd layers and disagreement on even layers. ;)
- jtdev 6y ago
  China moves fast at the expense of the environment, safety, individual rights, etc. I do agree though, balance is important; The U.S. seems to have excessive regulation and burdensome bureaucracy in many domains (public infra) and regulatory capture in others (Boeing's relationship with FAA/NTSB).
  - tonyaiken 6y ago
    They sacrifice minorities to satisfy majority, and they have the power to determine who is majority without voting. Sometimes the minority eventually get benefit, but most of the time their voice is no where to be heard.
  - justinzollars 6y ago
    I hear this all the time but is it true? It sounds like saying "we don't want to compete, because we are just better" - meanwhile we are being left in the dust. When I visited China, China feels like America. I'd argue China has embraced capitalism and we are moving in the opposite direction.
    - bpt3 6y ago
      > I'd argue China has embraced capitalism and we are moving in the opposite direction. The CCP has embraced capitalism when it's convenient for them. What they haven't embraced is a consistent rule of law or anything approaching a democratic government, which are the basis of every other functioning, stable nation on Earth.
      - empthought 6y ago
        China has more people living in it than the US, the EU, the post-Soviet states, and Brazil —- combined. Does it really matter what “every other functioning, stable nation on Earth” does, when it’s patently obvious that China will be calling the shots from here on out, thanks to everything that the Trump presidency did to internationalism?
        6y ago
- bpt3 6y ago
  Authoritarian regimes are often highly efficient, whether they are doing the right thing or not. The ability to unilaterally squash any dissent is a very powerful thing. How you can conclude that the US is in decline because a street repair in a single city takes longer than it probably should is beyond me.
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    Yeah. The ability to move fast when doing the wrong thing is not a virtue.
  - alex_c 6y ago
    >Authoritarian regimes are often highly efficient I would argue the opposite is usually true. Setting aside China, authoritarian regimes are usually NOT known for being efficient or well-run. I am not American, but I came back from my visits to China with a similar feeling to the grandparent comment. The West tends to stick their fingers in their ears and yell "Authoritarian regime, I can't hear you!" at the mere suggestion that China does certain things better and there may be something to learn there.
    - bpt3 6y ago
      > I would argue the opposite is usually true. Setting aside China, authoritarian regimes are usually NOT known for being efficient or well-run. well run != efficient Authoritarian regimes are highly efficient at accomplishing what the people in charge want to do, long term consequences be damned. Frequently, the people in charge are primarily focused on retaining or even acquiring more power and wealth, which is generally not well aligned with what most people would consider a well run nation. > I am not American, but I came back from my visits to China with a similar feeling to the grandparent comment. The West tends to stick their fingers in their ears and yell "Authoritarian regime, I can't hear you!" at the mere suggestion that China does certain things better and there may be something to learn there. The issue here is that there isn't an agreement on what "better" means. Social harmony at the expense of individual freedoms isn't better. Technological advancement that is based on IP theft isn't better. Infrastructure improvement that causes long term harm to the global environment isn't better.
- reaperducer 6y ago
  The west is slow and we are in decline. China is growing fast. The West and China have different goals. China's goal is to grow fast at all costs. To use your street example, the West makes a great effort to listen to the views of all the people affected by the project, including people who live near and work near the project. The West will also do a study to make sure the environmental impact is acceptable. The West will also do a survey to make sure nothing of any historical or archaeological importance isn't affected. The West will put the project out to multiple bidders and make sure that minority-owned companies are represented in the project. Depending on the project, there may also be other studies and considerations. China just does the project, and if it's done wrong or harms anyone, too bad. Get out of the way. Different systems. Different philosophies. One isn't better because it's "fast."
  - justinzollars 6y ago
    I'd invite you to travel to China and experience their high speed rail system. Its a huge accomplishment that our society isn't capable of producing. That question is worth exploration.
    - artificialLimbs 6y ago
      I'll never question whether I should give up my freedom for a train.
      - platinumrad 6y ago
        Have you ever considered what freedoms we already lack due to our barbaric car-centric society?
        majormajor 6y ago
        > Have you ever considered what freedoms we already lack due to our barbaric car-centric society? Barbaric is a fun word, but one that would be easy to twist the other way. In one system you get to be crammed into a little train car with dozens of other people, in the other system you have some privacy and personal space and a seat... Again, pros and cons all over the place... the US doesn't have good trains because it built other systems instead due to the point in time in which many of its cities developed, and they are "good enough" that most people would see little benefit from ripping it all up to replace it with trains. It's worth noting too that "they make the trains run on time" is literally a cliche about certain types of government at this point, not some unique accomplishment.
- orthecreedence 6y ago
  San Francisco builds stadiums when there is a housing shortage and bends over a barrel for the Super Bowl when it's actually held in San Jose. The city has a lot of difficult problems to solve, but it sure does do some horribly wrong things with the simpler problems.
  - Google234 6y ago
    Yep, you’ve definite hit the nail on the head why the homeless problem hasn’t been solved in SF. /s Anyway, didn’t the 49ers leave SF anyway? It’s not like the city budget has doubled in the last 10 years.
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  German fascists were praised for their ingenuity and the structure they imposed upon liberal society, and Germany even got the Autobahn out of them. I heard that Italian fascists made the trains run on time, too.
  - justinzollars 6y ago
    This sounds like name calling.
    - icandoit 6y ago
      Many people are happy to self-identify as German or Italian.
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      Wait, do you want to seriously study the way that China is able to do the prestige projects you point to, or do you want to ignore the historical patterns that provide evidence of what the reason is that they are able to do them?
      - ako 6y ago
        And the US was also able to do some impressive projects in the past. Does that say anything about previous governments?
        bpt3 6y ago
        It says that infrastructure accomplishments shouldn't be the sole metric on which nations are measured.
- rahimnathwani 6y ago
  I agree with the general point, but let me provide a counter: Before I moved to San Francisco, I lived in Beijing for 9 years, the last 3 of those in an apartment in the Sanlitun area of Beijing, within 3 mins walk of a Bentley dealership, Lotus dealership, a craft brewery etc. When we moved in, a school down the street had construction going on, and was surrounded with scaffolding and then some signage or whatever. The sidewalk was completely blocked off, making it difficult for pedestrians to pass. Over a year later, they finally finished construction and the updated building was revealed. They'd extended the building to take over the sidewalk completely. You'd think that, if this was intended, then they'd build a new sidewalk and narrow the car lanes a bit. But, no, pedestrians have to walk into the road to go around this school. This construction was both slow and bad. I admit it's not typical: the nearby Holiday Inn went from zero to operational within a few months.
- artificialLimbs 6y ago
  In rural Arkansas, we have the freedom to do a lot of crazy things like criticise our government. We also have blazing fast & stable FTTH for $50/month, some of the cleanest and tastiest water I've ever put in my mouth (which comes from our well), and our food is of excellent quality because there are many local small farmers who are ethical and stable. There is just enough work in the way of tech businesses a short drive away to make this life style possible. Maybe a change of scenery is in order for you. I can't imaging living in a hellscape like San Fran. I'm in a veritable paradise as far as I can tell. There are problems, but we are working on them, and we generally have the freedom to do so on our own terms without nanny government holding our hand.
  - thebradbain 6y ago
    Whenever I see complaints of “I live in X, X is a mess”, I’m much more likely to listen than when I hear “I live in X, Y is a mess” — the former implies someone has valid critiques that come from their lived experiences, and yet they still choose to live there, for whatever reason. The latter more often than not just speaks to ignorance — it’s easy to dismiss something on hearsay. This goes both ways. I’m from Dallas and live in Los Angeles. Both cities have their own share of problems (and their own great qualities) — and yet both are much more likely to quickly dismiss the other as lost causes than take a deep look at their own issues. It’s fine to have a preference, obviously, but don’t let your preference cloud your judgement: many would say the exact same thing about rural Arkansas — and for many, it probably wouldn’t be a paradise, based on any number of politics, orientations, race, socioeconomic status, or even just where your friends and family are! — but that doesn’t mean it isn’t for you.
  - renewiltord 6y ago
    Just curious, but are you White? No need to answer, but I do see some bimodality in the opinions expressed by people I trust about AR, so I guess if you're not it'll provide some downward pressure on that certainty.
    - empthought 6y ago
      I bet my entire salary they are lily-white.
- Shivetya 6y ago
  because in the US it is all about political power, all projects are not about solving the issue being worked on but how to reward the most people that will contribute to your and your parties political power. the amount of money being directed towards friends and fellow politicians is staggering. An example in Atlanta was a politician friends with those of the same party works in another county but serves on advisement boards for the city as a sole employee of those boards netting him hundreds of thousands a year. It only came to light because he screwed up the taxes. This is wide spread, as in nation wide. All those committees and such are mostly there to reward each other, family, and friends. China just eliminated having any competing political power. They have factions within but all serve the same top. Example of gaming the system https://www.ajc.com/politics/fulton-da-howard-fined-by-state-ethics-panel-for-failing-to-disclose-non-profit-job/PVZSYXKERBHW5EWI7FK6B55GYQ/ https://www.ajc.com/politics/fulton-da-howard-fined-by-state...
- carapace 6y ago
  San Francisco has some problems. For a glimpse behind the scenes, check out the ongoing FBI corruption probe: https://sfist.com/2020/07/15/ongoing-fbi-corruption-probe-hits-three-more-sf-city-departments-with-subpoenas/ https://sfist.com/2020/07/15/ongoing-fbi-corruption-probe-hi... However, before we go asking the commies how to run governments, there are perhaps some other, less authoritarian, countries who also get things done that we might look at?
  - ameen 6y ago
    Agreed, Japan, Taiwan, Singapore come to mind. China isn’t unique in being able to build infrastructure at an acceptable pace.
    - chillacy 6y ago
      Arguably China is emulating mainly Singapore but also its neighbors. It certainly was not building HSR pre 1980. There’s an interesting story with Deng Xiaoping and Lee Kwan Yew behind this.
- vmception 6y ago
  > compares a half continent sized country to a single city
- jaynetics 6y ago
  Regarding those sibling comments that try to explain away Chinas efficiency with its authoritarianism: consider other, democratic Asian nations like Japan, Taiwan, Korea, if you prefer. They offer just as much to learn, e.g. in how they handle infrastructure projects, technological advancements in the public sphere, or pandemic prevention. We westerners would be smart to question our perceived superiority from time to time.
- Rapzid 6y ago
  I wonder if their concentration camp er.. Re-education camp guests share a similar admiration for how well run they are. Or political prisoners for how efficiently they were reported and disappeared. I wonder.
- jariel 6y ago
  If China is so well managed, why are they so poor [1], so corrupt [2] , have up to 1M people in jail due purely to their ethnicity, and every citizen monitored at all times for a thought or statement tantamount to 'wrongthink'? China is not 'well managed', rather, they can 'move quickly and build things of questionable quality' in some places, not others. The ability to build some material things very quickly is definitely useful and creates some utility, but it's not tantamount to 'well managed'. SF has busses, trains and a subway that run, it's far from perfect, but what they suffer from is 'too much money'. [1] https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-per-capita/#:~:text=Gross%20Domestic%20Product%20(GDP)%20per,divided%20by%20its%20total%20population https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-per-capita/#:~:text=Gr.... [2] https://www.transparency.org/en/ https://www.transparency.org/en/
- lph 6y ago
  > China is very well managed. LOL. China is able to move very fast, but the idea that it's a well-oiled machine functioning in perfect harmony is a ridiculous fiction. Construction projects in China cut every corner possible. When something fails catastrophically, they'll throw a low-level official under the bus. At every level, there is total abdication of responsibility. The whole system incentivizes this. See: "The Chabuduo Mindset" https://www.chinaexpatsociety.com/culture/the-chabuduo-mindset https://www.chinaexpatsociety.com/culture/the-chabuduo-minds... > The west is slow and we are in decline. China is growing fast. Yes, and this should terrify everyone.
  - justaman 6y ago
    Here is video of a Chinese ghost city. It was made by a bloggers that were forced to leave the country for fear of their lives. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XopSDJq6w8E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XopSDJq6w8E > At every level, there is total abdication of responsibility. The whole system incentivizes this. Exactly like the USSR and Chernobyl.
  - dirtyid 6y ago
    >Construction projects in China cut every corner possible. Construction quality satisfies fast, cheap, good like everywhere else. As someone who worked adjacent to construction industry in both China and North America, the difference is China has the "fast" option available, whereas NA is mostly cheap + good, and frequently just cheap. It's less about being well managed, but having all the options and managing appropriately. Tons of capital projects in China and related prestige developments aging well. The latter surprisingly so considering how many retardley ambitious (almost unworkable) starchitect designs were built. Sure, lot's of uninhabited commodity projects falling into disrepair but abandoned bubble subdivisions don't fair much better. Difference is China builds more, so more catastrophic failures. Question is, it worth the cost? Deng wanted poor China to develop fast. So China ChaBuDuo's as deliberate development strategy and manages accordingly. >When something fails catastrophically, they'll throw a low-level official under the bus. At every level, there is total abdication of responsibility. The whole system incentivizes this. Chinese Aviation and HSR safety? Public accident -> regulate + execute those responsible = about safest aviation and HSR in the world. Surmise the same with food and vaccination safety, but effects of those scandal stake longer to determine. Regardless, incentives seem to align with state interests to me. On building stock specifically, there's no interest high quality commodity construction. Why would there be? Current 60% urbanization rate, goal 70%, realistically 80-90%. That's 140-420M people who needs apartments. Queue current 65M empty condos and ghost city memes. Obviously it's not perfect, but it has more tools to address some serious problems that's stumping the west, especially beyond political cycle timescales. Curious if west would try deleveraging or could successfully regulate FAANG. Too many things west can't do, but should. Also too many things CCP can do and shouldn't.
- robocat 6y ago
  > This is simply a modification of a sewer system Any civil engineers here that can explain why “simply” might not apply? I have watched some sewer modifications[1] here in Christchurch (earthquake damage, Insituform product), and it looked incredibly complicated and I didn’t see how they reconnected each home’s connection to the main. A typical metaphor for software engineering is rebuilding a plane while it is running. What is an appropriate metaphor when you are fixing old pipes that carry human excrement and the system mostly keeps working while it’s being done... [1] https://www3.epa.gov/npdes/pubs/rehabl.pdf https://www3.epa.gov/npdes/pubs/rehabl.pdf
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- nexus2045 6y ago
  I'm biased as heck because I'm a westernized Chinese, and I am impressed with the rapid development everytime I visit China. In my mind, being pragmatic wins. When I visited SF recently, I was constantly wary of dangers and mentally ill people, though less as I went to Silicon Valley. There is something that feels immediately wrong and backwards that no amount of whataboutism and armchair debates about the harms of authoritarianism can persuade, because I face reality every time I go outside.
- renewiltord 6y ago
  You know, I used to think this. Then I discovered how quickly Caltrans was able to fix that tank truck destruction of the highway in the East Bay. And then I looked at the stuff and realized something: America doesn't actually need the infrastructure. It's all a jobs program. Because when America needs it, it comes fast as fuck. But the truth is that America doesn't need it. You don't need high-speed rail (planes are better). You don't need that road to be resurfaced (the loss of life and property over the period in question is minuscule). You don't need the Central Railway. You don't need more interstates. It's okay to allow some bridges to fall killing some people. Almost all American infrastructure is either a vanity project, a jobs project, or a political quid pro quo operation to an ally to get some other thing done. The problem is that once you get really used to this mode of operating, you kind of forget that there are sometimes things that really do matter. I think America has a picture of the things she already knows of: crucial highway collapses? gotta fix now! But the ability to recognize new crises goes away without novel crises. So America can't build ventilators in an emergency, can't train nurses in an emergency, can't do anything new. But I think America can deal with the old things just fine if she wants to.
whatshisface 6y ago
> One last beat from a Zhihu commentator discussing the importance of studying official behavior as a matter of science: “the behavior of officials is a scientific discipline, it should be studied professionally as a scientific subject, just as understanding sexual chemistry is a scientific subject. Chinese people are generally too embarrassed to openly discuss matters of sexual harmony, and likewise are too ashamed to investigate the logic behind official actions.” If you're not allowed to conclude that the whole system has to go, then it is impossible to have any credibility in saying that the whole system doesn't have to go.
- justicezyx 6y ago
  In this context of the zhihu commentary, the comments are made actually by the CCP official wannabe. They not only do not want to destroy the system, they are the most ardent supporters. I come across a lot of such people online. The same bureaucratic disease of any established government.
- bgee 6y ago
  As a Chinese national and frequent Zhihu user, this comment is probably satire... I would also like to say the idea that this system has to be changed/replaced is generally agreed upon.
  - tomcam 6y ago
    > bgee 5 hours ago [–] As a Chinese national and frequent Zhihu user, this comment is probably satire... I would also like to say the idea that this system has to be changed/replaced is generally agreed upon. Have not heard about this. What ideas are floating around for the replacement?
  - SZJX 6y ago
    I don't see what's wrong with the Zhihu comment... Sure the comparison with sex is a bit weird, but "the behavior of officials is a scientific discipline, it should be studied professionally as a scientific subject" sounds exactly like what all social sciences are doing when studying and researching political systems, so I don't see the problem there? Also not sure what you exactly mean with "generally agreed upon" and "has to be changed/replaced". There could be varying degrees of interpretation, but I don't think by far that a radical change is a "general consensus" throughout the nation. Many do see that the system has been working for the country so far and are taking note.
justicezyx 6y ago
The articles title is way beyond the scope of the content, I.e. the content is about 3 major issues observed in the ranks of CCP & China's government officials. It does not go through the whole official promotion system. > but also serves as an implicit suggestion of the superiority of the Chinese system in contrast to western democratic systems. This is clearly a wrong impression. The superiority is always in the context of being for China. Without that quote, it becomes a challenge to US hegemony. Although, it should be mentioned that, no superpower can convince the old one to peacefully transfer the power.
jefftk 6y ago
Minor, but: Once I accompanied a domestic delegation to visit the United States. After dinner, we asked the waiter for an invoice, but the waiter did not know what an invoice was, so we talked to the boss and explained to him that we need an invoice so that we can be reimbursed back in China. The restaurant boss listened to us with great bewilderment. He asked, “Aren't you eating for yourselves, so why are you having the government pay for it?” When travelling on business, asking for a receipt to be reimbursed is very normal. Perhaps the problem was asking for an "invoice" instead of a "receipt"?
- z2 6y ago
  They probably asked (conceptually) for a "fapiao", which is a very formal invoice in China but required for reimbursement [0] and is a government-acknowledged piece of paper declaring that a sales transaction really happened. Asking for one there would require the restaurant to log revenue live with the tax bureau. I discovered this by mistakenly asking for one in China, thinking it was just a receipt. I was led to the office of the restaurant, where they printed it onto half an A4 paper with carbon copies, e-verification serial number, and QR code. There are even more fascinating patterns that emerge from the incentives here--business don't like declaring revenue, so these sometimes have scratch-to-win lottery tickets built in, so to encourage everyone to request one (thus preventing tax evasion) [1]. The less formal option is a "shouju" but doesn't work for official business reimbursement. 0: https://www.thebeijinger.com/blog/2019/08/29/what-is-a-fapiao-and-when-do-i-need-one https://www.thebeijinger.com/blog/2019/08/29/what-is-a-fapia... 1: https://www.globalfromasia.com/fapiao/ https://www.globalfromasia.com/fapiao/
  - R0b0t1 6y ago
    There are Western businesses that really do want an invoice, not a receipt. But since most governments don't go to the length China does to make an invoice functionally better than a receipt I don't see the point in this.
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
      What is the difference between an invoice and a receipt? I thought a receipt is just an invoice with the payment method and amount resulting in a zero balance.
ggnore7452 6y ago
kinda interesting see people use "authoritarian" as if it's all the reasons China succeed (in term of infra, econ, and general well-being), and therefore nothing to see and learn. If authoritarian government is by default this effective and easy to success, why most of them failed?
- bpt3 6y ago
  > If authoritarian government is by default this effective and easy to success, why most of them failed? Because the decision makers will inevitably make very large mistakes, and generally don't have the ability (or capacity) to course correct. The western system is far from efficient, but it generally lands on the right solution in the long term.
  - alisonkisk 6y ago
    Is a quarter million dead so far from covid-19 the right solution in the long term?
    - bpt3 6y ago
      Probably not? I'm not sure what your point is here.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  I'm going to focus on this specific kind of authoritarian government, the Leninist one-party state. The main reason why it lasted so long in China is because it is now operating in the economic system and condition it was designed to work under. Indeed, this system of governance was designed by Lenin and his cronies precisely to operate under and regulate State Capitalism. It's not designed to work with a planned economy, or with a completely capitalist economy, or with an agrarian economy, but explicitly with State Capitalism (see: NEP). Secondly, it's not actually supposed to last. This kind of government was designed to last more or less 70 years under the correct economic system, it wasn't designed to last forever. China happens to be a case of the government system operating in exactly the correst economic system during the period where its supposed to work. The rest of it is just typical "democratic" centralism, self-criticism, a strong ideological backing, and the ability for flexibility and reactivity at the local level, as well as a good dose of fear.
jariel 6y ago
The logic in the article is a little strained. The 'contract officials' are 'doomed' because they have to chose between competing senior officials, many of which will be upset? Then why would anyone take the job? He literally says they are 'coveted' while at the same time '99% chance of failure'? And he indicated that some don't accept bribes. But then, randomly, they might accept one for which they could get caught? How about just don't take bribes? Seriously. I really enjoyed reading this however, I wish there was more real data to analyze as often, it's hard to really ascertain how much of these things are really true or just things that even people with experience and insight happen to believe.
- rk06 6y ago
  i think it is a matter of perspective. People, who are from poor provinces, would really prefer to get the job even if it means bribing. however, the official cadre, in next para, refers to all the official cadres regardless of their priority being money or doing a good job
yorwba 6y ago
The introduction frames the following translation as focusing on > various “failures of democracy” that, if left unchecked, could lead to the weakening of the Chinese political system. Not only does his analysis argue the importance of having more senior officials rather than the rank-and-file party cadres select competent officials, but also serves as an implicit suggestion of the superiority of the Chinese system in contrast to western democratic systems. I believe that is a misinterpretation caused by misunderstanding "failures of democracy" as referring to "failures of Western democracy". However, as an academic affiliated with the Central Party School, Wang Dongjing can safely be assumed to be using official terminology, in which China is defined as a democratic country. So all references to "democracy" in the article should be understood to refer to the system of leadership selection implemented in China. In particular, the "failures of democracy" he talks about are specifically "failures of leadership selection in China". That is also very noticeable when he talks about the difference between "majority of the minority and the majority of the majority". In his example of minority selection, all 20 superior officials are corrupt, blocking the young official's promotion for not doing them a favor. Then later he says that "in our society, the good guys are in the majority and the bad guys are in the minority" and "if under the guidance of democratic centralism, we elect those who have the support of the majority of the people and entrust them with important tasks, then the bureaucratic culture will change greatly. In this way, there will be no market for those who are political ‘social climbers’, who only seek to curry favors with others but don’t seek to accomplish anything." I.e. he is arguing explicitly against having senior officials decide on promotions and wants rank-and-file cadres to get a vote instead. Just because he is affiliated with the Central Party School, it should not be assumed that he wants to paint a rosy picture of the government. On the contrary, it is kind of their raison d'être to be aware of the government's shortcomings, so that they can educate future cadres to improve the system. (Though I don't think posting such criticism publicly was part of the job description.)
- jugurtha656 6y ago
  jordan here--thanks for this appreciate the commentary
ed25519FUUU 6y ago
This article reminds me of this other headline[1]: > Thirteen and a half tonnes of gold worth up to £520million is found in a corrupt Chinese official's home When I read it, I thought to myself somebody ended up on the wrong side of the party. Hm, I wonder where all of that gold went? 1. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7528217/13-5-tonnes-gold-worth-520-million-corrupt-Chinese-officials-home.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7528217/13-5-tonnes...
- gruez 6y ago
  That just seems phenomenally stupid. Even if you think you're in good graces with the party, you shouldn't leave that much gold in one place for easy seizure. Park it in an offshore bank account, west coast real estate, or bitcoin for goodness sakes!
anonymousiam 6y ago
This story makes me want to tell one of my own. I have visited the PRC a few times. On one of those times, my wife and I visited a cousin of hers in Beijing. This cousin had a factory and was well connected. He wanted us to do something for him, so he invited us to drinks and dinner at a fine restaurant (in a private banquet room). Turns out that one of his buddies was the Chief of Police and he was there too. We had fun trying to drink each other under the table, and as the evening came to a close I slipped downstairs so that I could pay for everything. (I didn't want to be obligated to any of these people.) When I approached the restaurant staff and expressed my intention to pay, they were horror stricken. Apparently the Police Chief was sponsoring the meal, which means the restaurant was giving it to him and everyone else for "free". I had not truly realized the extent of corruption in China until that moment.
- frakkingcylons 6y ago
  Yes, so shocking to hear that considering how police in the rest of the world are known for their stellar reputation in the community.
  - powerapple 6y ago
    It is interesting that the police chief has to pay for the dinner, I thought he was there for the free ride.
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
      The police chief didn’t have to pay for the dinner, in the grandparent comment’s story.
      - powerapple 6y ago
        In theory the free meal was on him, right? The rich business guy could easily pay for the meal out of his pocket, and the police chief actually choose to use his power (as suggested) to get a free dinner. I am not saying it is not true. Just stating the fact. Rather than doing nothing, he actually used his power for food.
intricatedetail 6y ago
Human nature under slightly different framework. There they have "government" we have big corps and lobbyists.
mips_avatar 6y ago
I think you'll find pretty big pockets of tech companies with a CCP promotion dynamic. You're usually better off being the "good man" who doesn't really do anything. Doing things has the potential to offend someone.
bullogger 6y ago
‘ Once I accompanied a domestic delegation to visit the United States. After dinner, we asked the waiter for an invoice, but the waiter did not know what an invoice was, so we talked to the boss and explained to him that we need an invoice so that we can be reimbursed back in China. The restaurant boss listened to us with great bewilderment. He asked, “Aren't you eating for yourselves, so why are you having the government pay for it?” ‘ So fake. Don’t people in US require an invoice for reimbursement for business meal?
SZJX 6y ago
The article is actually quite interesting and objective. The introduction by Jordan Schneider reads confusing though. The purpose of Wang was to illustrate how the officialdom work and how to deepen reforms based on such objective understandings of the system. They don't seem to have much relation with what Jordan Schneider wrote at the beginning e.g. corruption here.

124 points by erentz 6y ago

Interesting. I have no specific reason to distrust this piece but I do wish there could be cited sources or corroboration. Also I wonder how much of this could be applied to western democracies as well

justinzollars 6y ago

China is very well managed. San Francisco, where I live is perhaps the worst managed place on earth. The way the Chinese are able to complete infrastructure is something we should seriously study, in addition to how they operate their government to support such projects. In San Francisco for example, we are undertaking a street repair of 19th street that will take an estimated 2 years. My best guess is that it will actually take a decade to complete, like the van ness project. This is simply a modification of a sewer system and a street re-pavement - nothing new. China could complete this in a week. The west is slow and we are in decline. China is growing fast.

inquirerofsorts 6y ago
The comments you have attracted are hilarious. It's not worth even attempting to initiate dialogue with such type of people. Here is the Chinese high speed rail built in the last decade, it is not propaganda, it's literally something you can buy a ticket for and travel on at 350 km/h right now. I truly worry for Americans incapable of seeing what is happening in the rest of the world. https://image5.sixthtone.com/image/5/4/861.gif https://image5.sixthtone.com/image/5/4/861.gif
- artificialLimbs 6y ago
  Does the train pass by the gulags?
  - cambalache 6y ago
    Well, there is a McDonalds at Guantanamo , so everything is possible
  - Rapzid 6y ago
    The gulag trains happen to pass through the residential and commercial districts.
  - empthought 6y ago
    Pretty smug-sounding for someone living in the nation with 5% of the world’s population but 25% of the world’s prisoners.
    - artificialLimbs 6y ago
      Yes, I feel fortunate that I can say such things without being cloth-sacked away. I'm not exactly pro-prison, but so far I haven't heard any alternatives that I believe would work as a solution to violent crime. I'm open to suggestions. It is certainly the case that the U.S. has too many laws.
      - empthought 6y ago
        You could totally say that in China as a Chinese citizen and nothing would happen to you.
        ghomrassen 6y ago
        Not on weibo.
        empthought 6y ago
        I didn’t say nothing would happen to his post... but then Zuck and Jack do the same thing in this here land of freedom...
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > Here is the Chinese high speed rail built in the last decade, it is not propaganda, it's literally something you can buy a ticket for and travel on at 350 km/h right now. Yeah, its nice. Authoritarian regimes usually have some nice prestige projects to show, which is really nice if you are a foreigner they are trying to impress, or a local that is in favor with the regime. Not so much if you are out-of-favor, whether because you opposed the particular approach they took for the prestige project or for some unrelated reason. But, as much as I like HSR and wish the US would do it, emulating China -- whose ability to do it isn't a mystery needing study, but well-understood -- isn't a cost worth paying for it.
  - Gwypaas 6y ago
    No need to be authoritarian. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/High_Speed_Railroad_Map_of_Europe.svg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/High_Spe...
- justinzollars 6y ago
  (op here) Thanks. The idea of not being number one is a difficult notion for people to reconcile.
- bpt3 6y ago
  I don't see anyone claiming China didn't build high speed rail. I do see a number of people questioning the parent poster's metric for evaluating the future of China and the west, when many countries in the west also have high speed rail systems and that focus on one measurement of success is probably at least a little myopic.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> The way the Chinese are able to complete infrastructure is something we should seriously study, in addition to how they operate their government to support such projects. Why? I mean, its not news that top-down authoritarianism is very good at doing whatever the top decides needs done without considering anyone else's concerns or interests, this isn't something that needs study. And there are no shortages of places practicing that to decamp to if that is your preference for style of government.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
icandoit 6y ago
A positive spin on this is that everyday people are so wealthy, savvy, and time-rich that they spontaneously organize and campaign to shut down infrastructure projects they don't like. When it's keeping the "other" out it's gross, but when they are shutting down pointless vanity projects like a sculpture park no one wants maybe that's democracy as advertised.
hpoe 6y ago
I agree it is amazing how well you can manage things when you can "reconcile" any worker complaints, very quickly. When those who are known to oppose or object to your plans are "reassigned" to a post in the Gobi. And who of course would object when doing so would ding your "social credit" score and restrict your right to do things like travel, or access the internet. I agree that single party states run very well, after all when you don't have to worry about pesky freedoms or rights it's amazing what you can accomplish. Next up President Xi Jinping has a 99% approval rating. How does China produce such beloved politicians?
- whatshisface 6y ago
  It baffles me how Americans can say, (paraphrasing), "on one hand it is illegal for Chinese journalists to report on public project failures, but on the other hand, I haven't heard of any public project failures."
  - bobthepanda 6y ago
    That’s not what the parent comment said at all? Americans know very well that their public sector fails to execute projects on time and on budget. They just don’t think the tradeoffs to convert to the Chinese system are worth it, nor are the benefits of the Chinese system exclusive to that system.
    - whatshisface 6y ago
      >That’s not what the parent comment said at all? It was written to agree with the parent, not disagree. Yes, that does break from the normal comment thread cadence of agreement on odd layers and disagreement on even layers. ;)
jtdev 6y ago
China moves fast at the expense of the environment, safety, individual rights, etc. I do agree though, balance is important; The U.S. seems to have excessive regulation and burdensome bureaucracy in many domains (public infra) and regulatory capture in others (Boeing's relationship with FAA/NTSB).
- tonyaiken 6y ago
  They sacrifice minorities to satisfy majority, and they have the power to determine who is majority without voting. Sometimes the minority eventually get benefit, but most of the time their voice is no where to be heard.
- justinzollars 6y ago
  I hear this all the time but is it true? It sounds like saying "we don't want to compete, because we are just better" - meanwhile we are being left in the dust. When I visited China, China feels like America. I'd argue China has embraced capitalism and we are moving in the opposite direction.
  - bpt3 6y ago
    > I'd argue China has embraced capitalism and we are moving in the opposite direction. The CCP has embraced capitalism when it's convenient for them. What they haven't embraced is a consistent rule of law or anything approaching a democratic government, which are the basis of every other functioning, stable nation on Earth.
    - empthought 6y ago
      China has more people living in it than the US, the EU, the post-Soviet states, and Brazil —- combined. Does it really matter what “every other functioning, stable nation on Earth” does, when it’s patently obvious that China will be calling the shots from here on out, thanks to everything that the Trump presidency did to internationalism?
      - 6y ago
bpt3 6y ago
Authoritarian regimes are often highly efficient, whether they are doing the right thing or not. The ability to unilaterally squash any dissent is a very powerful thing. How you can conclude that the US is in decline because a street repair in a single city takes longer than it probably should is beyond me.
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  Yeah. The ability to move fast when doing the wrong thing is not a virtue.
- alex_c 6y ago
  >Authoritarian regimes are often highly efficient I would argue the opposite is usually true. Setting aside China, authoritarian regimes are usually NOT known for being efficient or well-run. I am not American, but I came back from my visits to China with a similar feeling to the grandparent comment. The West tends to stick their fingers in their ears and yell "Authoritarian regime, I can't hear you!" at the mere suggestion that China does certain things better and there may be something to learn there.
  - bpt3 6y ago
    > I would argue the opposite is usually true. Setting aside China, authoritarian regimes are usually NOT known for being efficient or well-run. well run != efficient Authoritarian regimes are highly efficient at accomplishing what the people in charge want to do, long term consequences be damned. Frequently, the people in charge are primarily focused on retaining or even acquiring more power and wealth, which is generally not well aligned with what most people would consider a well run nation. > I am not American, but I came back from my visits to China with a similar feeling to the grandparent comment. The West tends to stick their fingers in their ears and yell "Authoritarian regime, I can't hear you!" at the mere suggestion that China does certain things better and there may be something to learn there. The issue here is that there isn't an agreement on what "better" means. Social harmony at the expense of individual freedoms isn't better. Technological advancement that is based on IP theft isn't better. Infrastructure improvement that causes long term harm to the global environment isn't better.
reaperducer 6y ago
The west is slow and we are in decline. China is growing fast. The West and China have different goals. China's goal is to grow fast at all costs. To use your street example, the West makes a great effort to listen to the views of all the people affected by the project, including people who live near and work near the project. The West will also do a study to make sure the environmental impact is acceptable. The West will also do a survey to make sure nothing of any historical or archaeological importance isn't affected. The West will put the project out to multiple bidders and make sure that minority-owned companies are represented in the project. Depending on the project, there may also be other studies and considerations. China just does the project, and if it's done wrong or harms anyone, too bad. Get out of the way. Different systems. Different philosophies. One isn't better because it's "fast."
- justinzollars 6y ago
  I'd invite you to travel to China and experience their high speed rail system. Its a huge accomplishment that our society isn't capable of producing. That question is worth exploration.
  - artificialLimbs 6y ago
    I'll never question whether I should give up my freedom for a train.
    - platinumrad 6y ago
      Have you ever considered what freedoms we already lack due to our barbaric car-centric society?
      - majormajor 6y ago
        > Have you ever considered what freedoms we already lack due to our barbaric car-centric society? Barbaric is a fun word, but one that would be easy to twist the other way. In one system you get to be crammed into a little train car with dozens of other people, in the other system you have some privacy and personal space and a seat... Again, pros and cons all over the place... the US doesn't have good trains because it built other systems instead due to the point in time in which many of its cities developed, and they are "good enough" that most people would see little benefit from ripping it all up to replace it with trains. It's worth noting too that "they make the trains run on time" is literally a cliche about certain types of government at this point, not some unique accomplishment.
orthecreedence 6y ago
San Francisco builds stadiums when there is a housing shortage and bends over a barrel for the Super Bowl when it's actually held in San Jose. The city has a lot of difficult problems to solve, but it sure does do some horribly wrong things with the simpler problems.
- Google234 6y ago
  Yep, you’ve definite hit the nail on the head why the homeless problem hasn’t been solved in SF. /s Anyway, didn’t the 49ers leave SF anyway? It’s not like the city budget has doubled in the last 10 years.
heavyset_go 6y ago
German fascists were praised for their ingenuity and the structure they imposed upon liberal society, and Germany even got the Autobahn out of them. I heard that Italian fascists made the trains run on time, too.
- justinzollars 6y ago
  This sounds like name calling.
  - icandoit 6y ago
    Many people are happy to self-identify as German or Italian.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    Wait, do you want to seriously study the way that China is able to do the prestige projects you point to, or do you want to ignore the historical patterns that provide evidence of what the reason is that they are able to do them?
    - ako 6y ago
      And the US was also able to do some impressive projects in the past. Does that say anything about previous governments?
      - bpt3 6y ago
        It says that infrastructure accomplishments shouldn't be the sole metric on which nations are measured.
rahimnathwani 6y ago
I agree with the general point, but let me provide a counter: Before I moved to San Francisco, I lived in Beijing for 9 years, the last 3 of those in an apartment in the Sanlitun area of Beijing, within 3 mins walk of a Bentley dealership, Lotus dealership, a craft brewery etc. When we moved in, a school down the street had construction going on, and was surrounded with scaffolding and then some signage or whatever. The sidewalk was completely blocked off, making it difficult for pedestrians to pass. Over a year later, they finally finished construction and the updated building was revealed. They'd extended the building to take over the sidewalk completely. You'd think that, if this was intended, then they'd build a new sidewalk and narrow the car lanes a bit. But, no, pedestrians have to walk into the road to go around this school. This construction was both slow and bad. I admit it's not typical: the nearby Holiday Inn went from zero to operational within a few months.
artificialLimbs 6y ago
In rural Arkansas, we have the freedom to do a lot of crazy things like criticise our government. We also have blazing fast & stable FTTH for $50/month, some of the cleanest and tastiest water I've ever put in my mouth (which comes from our well), and our food is of excellent quality because there are many local small farmers who are ethical and stable. There is just enough work in the way of tech businesses a short drive away to make this life style possible. Maybe a change of scenery is in order for you. I can't imaging living in a hellscape like San Fran. I'm in a veritable paradise as far as I can tell. There are problems, but we are working on them, and we generally have the freedom to do so on our own terms without nanny government holding our hand.
- thebradbain 6y ago
  Whenever I see complaints of “I live in X, X is a mess”, I’m much more likely to listen than when I hear “I live in X, Y is a mess” — the former implies someone has valid critiques that come from their lived experiences, and yet they still choose to live there, for whatever reason. The latter more often than not just speaks to ignorance — it’s easy to dismiss something on hearsay. This goes both ways. I’m from Dallas and live in Los Angeles. Both cities have their own share of problems (and their own great qualities) — and yet both are much more likely to quickly dismiss the other as lost causes than take a deep look at their own issues. It’s fine to have a preference, obviously, but don’t let your preference cloud your judgement: many would say the exact same thing about rural Arkansas — and for many, it probably wouldn’t be a paradise, based on any number of politics, orientations, race, socioeconomic status, or even just where your friends and family are! — but that doesn’t mean it isn’t for you.
- renewiltord 6y ago
  Just curious, but are you White? No need to answer, but I do see some bimodality in the opinions expressed by people I trust about AR, so I guess if you're not it'll provide some downward pressure on that certainty.
  - empthought 6y ago
    I bet my entire salary they are lily-white.
Shivetya 6y ago
because in the US it is all about political power, all projects are not about solving the issue being worked on but how to reward the most people that will contribute to your and your parties political power. the amount of money being directed towards friends and fellow politicians is staggering. An example in Atlanta was a politician friends with those of the same party works in another county but serves on advisement boards for the city as a sole employee of those boards netting him hundreds of thousands a year. It only came to light because he screwed up the taxes. This is wide spread, as in nation wide. All those committees and such are mostly there to reward each other, family, and friends. China just eliminated having any competing political power. They have factions within but all serve the same top. Example of gaming the system https://www.ajc.com/politics/fulton-da-howard-fined-by-state-ethics-panel-for-failing-to-disclose-non-profit-job/PVZSYXKERBHW5EWI7FK6B55GYQ/ https://www.ajc.com/politics/fulton-da-howard-fined-by-state...
carapace 6y ago
San Francisco has some problems. For a glimpse behind the scenes, check out the ongoing FBI corruption probe: https://sfist.com/2020/07/15/ongoing-fbi-corruption-probe-hits-three-more-sf-city-departments-with-subpoenas/ https://sfist.com/2020/07/15/ongoing-fbi-corruption-probe-hi... However, before we go asking the commies how to run governments, there are perhaps some other, less authoritarian, countries who also get things done that we might look at?
- ameen 6y ago
  Agreed, Japan, Taiwan, Singapore come to mind. China isn’t unique in being able to build infrastructure at an acceptable pace.
  - chillacy 6y ago
    Arguably China is emulating mainly Singapore but also its neighbors. It certainly was not building HSR pre 1980. There’s an interesting story with Deng Xiaoping and Lee Kwan Yew behind this.
vmception 6y ago
> compares a half continent sized country to a single city
jaynetics 6y ago
Regarding those sibling comments that try to explain away Chinas efficiency with its authoritarianism: consider other, democratic Asian nations like Japan, Taiwan, Korea, if you prefer. They offer just as much to learn, e.g. in how they handle infrastructure projects, technological advancements in the public sphere, or pandemic prevention. We westerners would be smart to question our perceived superiority from time to time.
Rapzid 6y ago
I wonder if their concentration camp er.. Re-education camp guests share a similar admiration for how well run they are. Or political prisoners for how efficiently they were reported and disappeared. I wonder.
jariel 6y ago
If China is so well managed, why are they so poor [1], so corrupt [2] , have up to 1M people in jail due purely to their ethnicity, and every citizen monitored at all times for a thought or statement tantamount to 'wrongthink'? China is not 'well managed', rather, they can 'move quickly and build things of questionable quality' in some places, not others. The ability to build some material things very quickly is definitely useful and creates some utility, but it's not tantamount to 'well managed'. SF has busses, trains and a subway that run, it's far from perfect, but what they suffer from is 'too much money'. [1] https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-per-capita/#:~:text=Gross%20Domestic%20Product%20(GDP)%20per,divided%20by%20its%20total%20population https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-per-capita/#:~:text=Gr.... [2] https://www.transparency.org/en/ https://www.transparency.org/en/
lph 6y ago
> China is very well managed. LOL. China is able to move very fast, but the idea that it's a well-oiled machine functioning in perfect harmony is a ridiculous fiction. Construction projects in China cut every corner possible. When something fails catastrophically, they'll throw a low-level official under the bus. At every level, there is total abdication of responsibility. The whole system incentivizes this. See: "The Chabuduo Mindset" https://www.chinaexpatsociety.com/culture/the-chabuduo-mindset https://www.chinaexpatsociety.com/culture/the-chabuduo-minds... > The west is slow and we are in decline. China is growing fast. Yes, and this should terrify everyone.
- justaman 6y ago
  Here is video of a Chinese ghost city. It was made by a bloggers that were forced to leave the country for fear of their lives. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XopSDJq6w8E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XopSDJq6w8E > At every level, there is total abdication of responsibility. The whole system incentivizes this. Exactly like the USSR and Chernobyl.
- dirtyid 6y ago
  >Construction projects in China cut every corner possible. Construction quality satisfies fast, cheap, good like everywhere else. As someone who worked adjacent to construction industry in both China and North America, the difference is China has the "fast" option available, whereas NA is mostly cheap + good, and frequently just cheap. It's less about being well managed, but having all the options and managing appropriately. Tons of capital projects in China and related prestige developments aging well. The latter surprisingly so considering how many retardley ambitious (almost unworkable) starchitect designs were built. Sure, lot's of uninhabited commodity projects falling into disrepair but abandoned bubble subdivisions don't fair much better. Difference is China builds more, so more catastrophic failures. Question is, it worth the cost? Deng wanted poor China to develop fast. So China ChaBuDuo's as deliberate development strategy and manages accordingly. >When something fails catastrophically, they'll throw a low-level official under the bus. At every level, there is total abdication of responsibility. The whole system incentivizes this. Chinese Aviation and HSR safety? Public accident -> regulate + execute those responsible = about safest aviation and HSR in the world. Surmise the same with food and vaccination safety, but effects of those scandal stake longer to determine. Regardless, incentives seem to align with state interests to me. On building stock specifically, there's no interest high quality commodity construction. Why would there be? Current 60% urbanization rate, goal 70%, realistically 80-90%. That's 140-420M people who needs apartments. Queue current 65M empty condos and ghost city memes. Obviously it's not perfect, but it has more tools to address some serious problems that's stumping the west, especially beyond political cycle timescales. Curious if west would try deleveraging or could successfully regulate FAANG. Too many things west can't do, but should. Also too many things CCP can do and shouldn't.
robocat 6y ago
> This is simply a modification of a sewer system Any civil engineers here that can explain why “simply” might not apply? I have watched some sewer modifications[1] here in Christchurch (earthquake damage, Insituform product), and it looked incredibly complicated and I didn’t see how they reconnected each home’s connection to the main. A typical metaphor for software engineering is rebuilding a plane while it is running. What is an appropriate metaphor when you are fixing old pipes that carry human excrement and the system mostly keeps working while it’s being done... [1] https://www3.epa.gov/npdes/pubs/rehabl.pdf https://www3.epa.gov/npdes/pubs/rehabl.pdf
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
nexus2045 6y ago
I'm biased as heck because I'm a westernized Chinese, and I am impressed with the rapid development everytime I visit China. In my mind, being pragmatic wins. When I visited SF recently, I was constantly wary of dangers and mentally ill people, though less as I went to Silicon Valley. There is something that feels immediately wrong and backwards that no amount of whataboutism and armchair debates about the harms of authoritarianism can persuade, because I face reality every time I go outside.
renewiltord 6y ago
You know, I used to think this. Then I discovered how quickly Caltrans was able to fix that tank truck destruction of the highway in the East Bay. And then I looked at the stuff and realized something: America doesn't actually need the infrastructure. It's all a jobs program. Because when America needs it, it comes fast as fuck. But the truth is that America doesn't need it. You don't need high-speed rail (planes are better). You don't need that road to be resurfaced (the loss of life and property over the period in question is minuscule). You don't need the Central Railway. You don't need more interstates. It's okay to allow some bridges to fall killing some people. Almost all American infrastructure is either a vanity project, a jobs project, or a political quid pro quo operation to an ally to get some other thing done. The problem is that once you get really used to this mode of operating, you kind of forget that there are sometimes things that really do matter. I think America has a picture of the things she already knows of: crucial highway collapses? gotta fix now! But the ability to recognize new crises goes away without novel crises. So America can't build ventilators in an emergency, can't train nurses in an emergency, can't do anything new. But I think America can deal with the old things just fine if she wants to.

whatshisface 6y ago

> One last beat from a Zhihu commentator discussing the importance of studying official behavior as a matter of science: “the behavior of officials is a scientific discipline, it should be studied professionally as a scientific subject, just as understanding sexual chemistry is a scientific subject. Chinese people are generally too embarrassed to openly discuss matters of sexual harmony, and likewise are too ashamed to investigate the logic behind official actions.” If you're not allowed to conclude that the whole system has to go, then it is impossible to have any credibility in saying that the whole system doesn't have to go.

justicezyx 6y ago
In this context of the zhihu commentary, the comments are made actually by the CCP official wannabe. They not only do not want to destroy the system, they are the most ardent supporters. I come across a lot of such people online. The same bureaucratic disease of any established government.
bgee 6y ago
As a Chinese national and frequent Zhihu user, this comment is probably satire... I would also like to say the idea that this system has to be changed/replaced is generally agreed upon.
- tomcam 6y ago
  > bgee 5 hours ago [–] As a Chinese national and frequent Zhihu user, this comment is probably satire... I would also like to say the idea that this system has to be changed/replaced is generally agreed upon. Have not heard about this. What ideas are floating around for the replacement?
- SZJX 6y ago
  I don't see what's wrong with the Zhihu comment... Sure the comparison with sex is a bit weird, but "the behavior of officials is a scientific discipline, it should be studied professionally as a scientific subject" sounds exactly like what all social sciences are doing when studying and researching political systems, so I don't see the problem there? Also not sure what you exactly mean with "generally agreed upon" and "has to be changed/replaced". There could be varying degrees of interpretation, but I don't think by far that a radical change is a "general consensus" throughout the nation. Many do see that the system has been working for the country so far and are taking note.

justicezyx 6y ago

The articles title is way beyond the scope of the content, I.e. the content is about 3 major issues observed in the ranks of CCP & China's government officials. It does not go through the whole official promotion system. > but also serves as an implicit suggestion of the superiority of the Chinese system in contrast to western democratic systems. This is clearly a wrong impression. The superiority is always in the context of being for China. Without that quote, it becomes a challenge to US hegemony. Although, it should be mentioned that, no superpower can convince the old one to peacefully transfer the power.

jefftk 6y ago

Minor, but: Once I accompanied a domestic delegation to visit the United States. After dinner, we asked the waiter for an invoice, but the waiter did not know what an invoice was, so we talked to the boss and explained to him that we need an invoice so that we can be reimbursed back in China. The restaurant boss listened to us with great bewilderment. He asked, “Aren't you eating for yourselves, so why are you having the government pay for it?” When travelling on business, asking for a receipt to be reimbursed is very normal. Perhaps the problem was asking for an "invoice" instead of a "receipt"?

z2 6y ago
They probably asked (conceptually) for a "fapiao", which is a very formal invoice in China but required for reimbursement [0] and is a government-acknowledged piece of paper declaring that a sales transaction really happened. Asking for one there would require the restaurant to log revenue live with the tax bureau. I discovered this by mistakenly asking for one in China, thinking it was just a receipt. I was led to the office of the restaurant, where they printed it onto half an A4 paper with carbon copies, e-verification serial number, and QR code. There are even more fascinating patterns that emerge from the incentives here--business don't like declaring revenue, so these sometimes have scratch-to-win lottery tickets built in, so to encourage everyone to request one (thus preventing tax evasion) [1]. The less formal option is a "shouju" but doesn't work for official business reimbursement. 0: https://www.thebeijinger.com/blog/2019/08/29/what-is-a-fapiao-and-when-do-i-need-one https://www.thebeijinger.com/blog/2019/08/29/what-is-a-fapia... 1: https://www.globalfromasia.com/fapiao/ https://www.globalfromasia.com/fapiao/
- R0b0t1 6y ago
  There are Western businesses that really do want an invoice, not a receipt. But since most governments don't go to the length China does to make an invoice functionally better than a receipt I don't see the point in this.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    What is the difference between an invoice and a receipt? I thought a receipt is just an invoice with the payment method and amount resulting in a zero balance.

ggnore7452 6y ago

kinda interesting see people use "authoritarian" as if it's all the reasons China succeed (in term of infra, econ, and general well-being), and therefore nothing to see and learn. If authoritarian government is by default this effective and easy to success, why most of them failed?

bpt3 6y ago
> If authoritarian government is by default this effective and easy to success, why most of them failed? Because the decision makers will inevitably make very large mistakes, and generally don't have the ability (or capacity) to course correct. The western system is far from efficient, but it generally lands on the right solution in the long term.
- alisonkisk 6y ago
  Is a quarter million dead so far from covid-19 the right solution in the long term?
  - bpt3 6y ago
    Probably not? I'm not sure what your point is here.
sudosysgen 6y ago
I'm going to focus on this specific kind of authoritarian government, the Leninist one-party state. The main reason why it lasted so long in China is because it is now operating in the economic system and condition it was designed to work under. Indeed, this system of governance was designed by Lenin and his cronies precisely to operate under and regulate State Capitalism. It's not designed to work with a planned economy, or with a completely capitalist economy, or with an agrarian economy, but explicitly with State Capitalism (see: NEP). Secondly, it's not actually supposed to last. This kind of government was designed to last more or less 70 years under the correct economic system, it wasn't designed to last forever. China happens to be a case of the government system operating in exactly the correst economic system during the period where its supposed to work. The rest of it is just typical "democratic" centralism, self-criticism, a strong ideological backing, and the ability for flexibility and reactivity at the local level, as well as a good dose of fear.

jariel 6y ago

The logic in the article is a little strained. The 'contract officials' are 'doomed' because they have to chose between competing senior officials, many of which will be upset? Then why would anyone take the job? He literally says they are 'coveted' while at the same time '99% chance of failure'? And he indicated that some don't accept bribes. But then, randomly, they might accept one for which they could get caught? How about just don't take bribes? Seriously. I really enjoyed reading this however, I wish there was more real data to analyze as often, it's hard to really ascertain how much of these things are really true or just things that even people with experience and insight happen to believe.

rk06 6y ago
i think it is a matter of perspective. People, who are from poor provinces, would really prefer to get the job even if it means bribing. however, the official cadre, in next para, refers to all the official cadres regardless of their priority being money or doing a good job

yorwba 6y ago

The introduction frames the following translation as focusing on > various “failures of democracy” that, if left unchecked, could lead to the weakening of the Chinese political system. Not only does his analysis argue the importance of having more senior officials rather than the rank-and-file party cadres select competent officials, but also serves as an implicit suggestion of the superiority of the Chinese system in contrast to western democratic systems. I believe that is a misinterpretation caused by misunderstanding "failures of democracy" as referring to "failures of Western democracy". However, as an academic affiliated with the Central Party School, Wang Dongjing can safely be assumed to be using official terminology, in which China is defined as a democratic country. So all references to "democracy" in the article should be understood to refer to the system of leadership selection implemented in China. In particular, the "failures of democracy" he talks about are specifically "failures of leadership selection in China". That is also very noticeable when he talks about the difference between "majority of the minority and the majority of the majority". In his example of minority selection, all 20 superior officials are corrupt, blocking the young official's promotion for not doing them a favor. Then later he says that "in our society, the good guys are in the majority and the bad guys are in the minority" and "if under the guidance of democratic centralism, we elect those who have the support of the majority of the people and entrust them with important tasks, then the bureaucratic culture will change greatly. In this way, there will be no market for those who are political ‘social climbers’, who only seek to curry favors with others but don’t seek to accomplish anything." I.e. he is arguing explicitly against having senior officials decide on promotions and wants rank-and-file cadres to get a vote instead. Just because he is affiliated with the Central Party School, it should not be assumed that he wants to paint a rosy picture of the government. On the contrary, it is kind of their raison d'être to be aware of the government's shortcomings, so that they can educate future cadres to improve the system. (Though I don't think posting such criticism publicly was part of the job description.)

jugurtha656 6y ago
jordan here--thanks for this appreciate the commentary

ed25519FUUU 6y ago

This article reminds me of this other headline[1]: > Thirteen and a half tonnes of gold worth up to £520million is found in a corrupt Chinese official's home When I read it, I thought to myself somebody ended up on the wrong side of the party. Hm, I wonder where all of that gold went? 1. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7528217/13-5-tonnes-gold-worth-520-million-corrupt-Chinese-officials-home.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7528217/13-5-tonnes...

gruez 6y ago
That just seems phenomenally stupid. Even if you think you're in good graces with the party, you shouldn't leave that much gold in one place for easy seizure. Park it in an offshore bank account, west coast real estate, or bitcoin for goodness sakes!

anonymousiam 6y ago

This story makes me want to tell one of my own. I have visited the PRC a few times. On one of those times, my wife and I visited a cousin of hers in Beijing. This cousin had a factory and was well connected. He wanted us to do something for him, so he invited us to drinks and dinner at a fine restaurant (in a private banquet room). Turns out that one of his buddies was the Chief of Police and he was there too. We had fun trying to drink each other under the table, and as the evening came to a close I slipped downstairs so that I could pay for everything. (I didn't want to be obligated to any of these people.) When I approached the restaurant staff and expressed my intention to pay, they were horror stricken. Apparently the Police Chief was sponsoring the meal, which means the restaurant was giving it to him and everyone else for "free". I had not truly realized the extent of corruption in China until that moment.

frakkingcylons 6y ago
Yes, so shocking to hear that considering how police in the rest of the world are known for their stellar reputation in the community.
- powerapple 6y ago
  It is interesting that the police chief has to pay for the dinner, I thought he was there for the free ride.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    The police chief didn’t have to pay for the dinner, in the grandparent comment’s story.
    - powerapple 6y ago
      In theory the free meal was on him, right? The rich business guy could easily pay for the meal out of his pocket, and the police chief actually choose to use his power (as suggested) to get a free dinner. I am not saying it is not true. Just stating the fact. Rather than doing nothing, he actually used his power for food.

intricatedetail 6y ago

Human nature under slightly different framework. There they have "government" we have big corps and lobbyists.

mips_avatar 6y ago

I think you'll find pretty big pockets of tech companies with a CCP promotion dynamic. You're usually better off being the "good man" who doesn't really do anything. Doing things has the potential to offend someone.

bullogger 6y ago

‘ Once I accompanied a domestic delegation to visit the United States. After dinner, we asked the waiter for an invoice, but the waiter did not know what an invoice was, so we talked to the boss and explained to him that we need an invoice so that we can be reimbursed back in China. The restaurant boss listened to us with great bewilderment. He asked, “Aren't you eating for yourselves, so why are you having the government pay for it?” ‘ So fake. Don’t people in US require an invoice for reimbursement for business meal?

SZJX 6y ago

The article is actually quite interesting and objective. The introduction by Jordan Schneider reads confusing though. The purpose of Wang was to illustrate how the officialdom work and how to deepen reforms based on such objective understandings of the system. They don't seem to have much relation with what Jordan Schneider wrote at the beginning e.g. corruption here.