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I wonder how much of the documentation involved exists only on paper vs. only in digital format. Digital is easier to destroy, so there would be an incentive fo

I wonder how much of the documentation involved exists only on paper vs. only in digital format. Digital is easier to destroy, so there would be an incentive for WH staff managers with less than honorable motivations to avoid leaving a paper trail as much as possible.

ericbarrett 6y ago
Top White House staff are widely reported to use WhatsApp, Telegram, and other private, non-archivable communications methods. This is illegal[0], of course, but as Congress has abdicated jurisdiction over the Office of the Executive they are not facing consequences. [0] https://www.co-equal.org/guide-to-congressional-oversight/congressional-oversight-of-executive-branch-records-preservation https://www.co-equal.org/guide-to-congressional-oversight/co...
- xyzzyz 6y ago
  > Congress has abdicated jurisdiction over the Office of the Executive they are not facing consequences. Haven’t they already done so earlier when the exact same issue came up during Hillary Clinton’s private email server affair?
  - flatline 6y ago
    The abdication to of power to the Executive has been going on longer than that. Personal IT device use has been too, things have only gotten worse since the Clinton email server debacle - which I did think was a big deal at the time, but in today's political landscape seems almost innocuous.
    - xyzzyz 6y ago
      Right, but I mentioned Hillary Clinton email server not just as a general example of abdication of power to executive, but rather because it was pretty much about the same thing as we are discussing here. White House officials using non-official channels and apps for communication is wrong, but it was just as wrong when Hillary Clinton did it, and she didn’t face any consequences for that , or when these emails got missing instead of getting archived.
      - amanaplanacanal 6y ago
        Supposedly it was only personal email and not official email that got deleted.
        xyzzyz 6y ago
        That's what she argued, but I don't think that if Trump officials claim the same, the media narrative and judicial system attitude will be "oh, okay, never mind then". That politicians on both sides engage in all kinds of wrong doing is certainly not news to me. The interesting part here is rather the difference in what each side gets when they are caught on the exact same thing.
        shadowgovt 6y ago
        It's true. When one person has a career of public service and the other has a career of real-estate grift, the court of public opinion weighs their actions differently when concrete evidence is lacking.
        xyzzyz 6y ago
        Of course, the other half of the "court of public opinion" believes that one person has history of successful business dealing, and the other has a career of government office grift. Alas, that's not the point: the point is that such character evidence is inadmissible in the court of law.
        Supermancho 6y ago
        That is not supposed, given the outgoing and in-going email addressing that were routed. This is the nature of the controversy. Hard to prove, without a separate record.
        bigbubba 6y ago
        I wouldn't trust Trump or his lackeys to accurately and honestly distinguish personal from official.
      - 6y ago
  - wheaties 6y ago
    Right, right, that was wrong on so many levels. Ivanka is doing the same damned thing, only it hasn't exactly made the news. Only difference this time, people are suing to try to force the issue that the law is followed.
- busterarm 6y ago
  Both campaigns this election relied heavily on both of those apps.
  - coliveira 6y ago
    Campaigns are not supposed to follow the same procedures as the sitting president.
    - busterarm 6y ago
      Whatever excuses you like for your government doing things behind closed doors away from public accountability to the electorate. That's not what I'm looking for in my elected officials.
      - recursive 6y ago
        In order to have an elected official, there first must be an election. That is the phase during which campaigns operate.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
Steltek 6y ago
I try hard not to make Reddit-esque jokes here but I can't help it: username checks out. Edit: Yes, I'll take my very deserved downvotes and go. But come on, Henry Kissinger talking about covering up Presidential crimes :-P We just need a RichardNixon to come in and concur.
- busterarm 6y ago
  I thought you were funny. Have an upvote. We need levity when talking about all of this. There's a real flood of people downvoting opinions that they don't like and flagging in this thread for comments that are perfectly fine contributions to the discussion. It's a sign that we can't have a fair discourse in this community around certain topics. Not our brightest day.
  - Steltek 6y ago
    I don't think it's a partisan thing? The 70's is way past the political event horizon for most people. I think it's simply keeping HN free of memes but I couldn't stop giggling the connection. For the broader point about the dangers of political discussions these days, society has lost all of its "ground rules" that keep things civil and level headed. There are no lines left to cross so tempers can run unchecked. I'm at a loss for a solution because I think the anger comes from a lack of resolution in the problems themselves. It's a spiraling feedback loop of despair.
    - busterarm 6y ago
      Most of what's being downvoted isn't memes. This thread is full of brigade downvoted and dead comments. Comments espousing opinions in favor of either "side". We are absurdly divided in our society right now and despite the guidelines of this site, folks seem not to care.
      - shadowgovt 6y ago
        There's no reason to expect a forum to be separate from the division in the larger society. Fora are populated by people, after all.

ericbarrett 6y ago

Top White House staff are widely reported to use WhatsApp, Telegram, and other private, non-archivable communications methods. This is illegal[0], of course, but as Congress has abdicated jurisdiction over the Office of the Executive they are not facing consequences. [0] https://www.co-equal.org/guide-to-congressional-oversight/congressional-oversight-of-executive-branch-records-preservation https://www.co-equal.org/guide-to-congressional-oversight/co...

xyzzyz 6y ago
> Congress has abdicated jurisdiction over the Office of the Executive they are not facing consequences. Haven’t they already done so earlier when the exact same issue came up during Hillary Clinton’s private email server affair?
- flatline 6y ago
  The abdication to of power to the Executive has been going on longer than that. Personal IT device use has been too, things have only gotten worse since the Clinton email server debacle - which I did think was a big deal at the time, but in today's political landscape seems almost innocuous.
  - xyzzyz 6y ago
    Right, but I mentioned Hillary Clinton email server not just as a general example of abdication of power to executive, but rather because it was pretty much about the same thing as we are discussing here. White House officials using non-official channels and apps for communication is wrong, but it was just as wrong when Hillary Clinton did it, and she didn’t face any consequences for that , or when these emails got missing instead of getting archived.
    - amanaplanacanal 6y ago
      Supposedly it was only personal email and not official email that got deleted.
      - xyzzyz 6y ago
        That's what she argued, but I don't think that if Trump officials claim the same, the media narrative and judicial system attitude will be "oh, okay, never mind then". That politicians on both sides engage in all kinds of wrong doing is certainly not news to me. The interesting part here is rather the difference in what each side gets when they are caught on the exact same thing.
        shadowgovt 6y ago
        It's true. When one person has a career of public service and the other has a career of real-estate grift, the court of public opinion weighs their actions differently when concrete evidence is lacking.
        xyzzyz 6y ago
        Of course, the other half of the "court of public opinion" believes that one person has history of successful business dealing, and the other has a career of government office grift. Alas, that's not the point: the point is that such character evidence is inadmissible in the court of law.
      - Supermancho 6y ago
        That is not supposed, given the outgoing and in-going email addressing that were routed. This is the nature of the controversy. Hard to prove, without a separate record.
      - bigbubba 6y ago
        I wouldn't trust Trump or his lackeys to accurately and honestly distinguish personal from official.
    - 6y ago
- wheaties 6y ago
  Right, right, that was wrong on so many levels. Ivanka is doing the same damned thing, only it hasn't exactly made the news. Only difference this time, people are suing to try to force the issue that the law is followed.
busterarm 6y ago
Both campaigns this election relied heavily on both of those apps.
- coliveira 6y ago
  Campaigns are not supposed to follow the same procedures as the sitting president.
  - busterarm 6y ago
    Whatever excuses you like for your government doing things behind closed doors away from public accountability to the electorate. That's not what I'm looking for in my elected officials.
    - recursive 6y ago
      In order to have an elected official, there first must be an election. That is the phase during which campaigns operate.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

Steltek 6y ago

I try hard not to make Reddit-esque jokes here but I can't help it: username checks out. Edit: Yes, I'll take my very deserved downvotes and go. But come on, Henry Kissinger talking about covering up Presidential crimes :-P We just need a RichardNixon to come in and concur.

busterarm 6y ago
I thought you were funny. Have an upvote. We need levity when talking about all of this. There's a real flood of people downvoting opinions that they don't like and flagging in this thread for comments that are perfectly fine contributions to the discussion. It's a sign that we can't have a fair discourse in this community around certain topics. Not our brightest day.
- Steltek 6y ago
  I don't think it's a partisan thing? The 70's is way past the political event horizon for most people. I think it's simply keeping HN free of memes but I couldn't stop giggling the connection. For the broader point about the dangers of political discussions these days, society has lost all of its "ground rules" that keep things civil and level headed. There are no lines left to cross so tempers can run unchecked. I'm at a loss for a solution because I think the anger comes from a lack of resolution in the problems themselves. It's a spiraling feedback loop of despair.
  - busterarm 6y ago
    Most of what's being downvoted isn't memes. This thread is full of brigade downvoted and dead comments. Comments espousing opinions in favor of either "side". We are absurdly divided in our society right now and despite the guidelines of this site, folks seem not to care.
    - shadowgovt 6y ago
      There's no reason to expect a forum to be separate from the division in the larger society. Fora are populated by people, after all.