5 ms·

i have a feeling, that these same CEOs would pick Nigeria as a better place to do business than United States...just because they get to pay a few bucks less in

by vaksel 15y ago

i have a feeling, that these same CEOs would pick Nigeria as a better place to do business than United States...just because they get to pay a few bucks less in taxes

he778 15y ago
That's quite a straw man. Economic freedom and property rights are more important than how much taxes you pay.
- j_baker 15y ago
  Exactly. CEOs need the economic freedom to treat people as property.
  - he778 15y ago
    This is just completely absurd, and does not belong on HN.
  - he778 15y ago
    Countries with the highest economic freedom scores in the world have the highest GDP per capitas in the world. That's factual proof that friendlier economic environments make better businesses, which benefit workers who receive the highest incomes in the world. Hong Kong and Singapore are great examples.
    - earl 15y ago
      Please, read some econ besides at heritage or cato. The correlation is not that strong, see [1] and specifically [2] [3] and [4]. [2] demolishes your argument -- look at the horizontal spread in the developed countries. These indicators are hard to measure, too; for an alternate measure, look at [3]: examine the vertical distance between Portugal and Australia. Or, if you prefer, in the middle of the graph between Ja/UK and Ireland. Or on the right side between NZ and the US. It's safe to say that economic freedom doesn't correlate all that well with GDP, not to mention that correlation neq causation. Not to mention for every Singapore there's an Ireland to match. [1] http://filipspagnoli.wordpress.com/stats-on-human-rights/statistics-on-gross-domestic-product-correlations/#4 http://filipspagnoli.wordpress.com/stats-on-human-rights/sta... [2] http://filipspagnoli.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/economic-freedom-and-income.jpg http://filipspagnoli.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/economic-fr... [3] http://filipspagnoli.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/economic-freedom-and-gdp-correlation.jpg http://filipspagnoli.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/economic-fr...
      - he78 15y ago
        This is getting a little absurd trying to argue with you since it seems like I would have to break down economic concepts to you because I know you do not come from an economics background. Any economic index, regardless of its source, will show that freer trade shows more economic growth. Singapore surpasses Ireland in terms of economic growth; also, Ireland adopted more free market principles to achieve its growth when it started to privatize its industries. All the countries you mention that have high GDP per capita and high GDP growth have high economic freedom scores. Trying to argue against freer trade for economic growth is like trying to argue with someone who says the Earth isn't round. China, India, Poland, Russia, etc., etc., grew their economies rapidly by moving to privatization and eliminating barriers to trade. Economists across the aisle support free trade; for example, read Paul Krugman's views on free trade in his Wikipedia entry (or research Goolsbee's, Geithnner's, Stglitz's, DeLong's, Sach's, Summers', etc, etc, etc, -- not to mention the plethora of economists' from across the other aisle -- views on free trade's effects on economic growth). This concept is not even debated anymore among the world's leading economists.
        vannevar 15y ago
        Then how do you explain how heavily-regulated California has a higher GDP-per-capita than lightly-regulated Texas?
    - j_baker 15y ago
      Absolutely agreed. Social, political, and moral issues are just red herrings. Workers only care about two things: 1) How much they make and 2) How much economic freedom their employers have.
- po 15y ago
  He's not setting up a straw man argument; the original article is a poll of 500 top CEO's asking which state they prefer and he's saying the results are not surprising. He's not trying to refute the results of the poll. In fact, it looks like you're now starting to set up a straw man by bringing in property rights and economic freedom which are so general and irrelevant to the article as to be nothing more than a dog whistle.
  - he778 15y ago
    No. He's using Nigeria's tax system as the only basis for choosing the best place to locate one's business. Many other factors contribute to a a CEO's preference.
po 15y ago
The Bermuda's 0% tax rate is a particular favorite. There were $51B in untaxed profits there in 2006. See also: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/11_16/b4224045265660.htm http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/11_16/b42240452...
- he778 15y ago
  ...and Bermuda enjoys one of the highest per capita incomes in the world.
  - po 15y ago
    …at the expense of the rest of the world. If you built a perfectly legal way for companies to get billions of dollars of income into the US tax-free and all it requires is a holding company on your island, you can be sure that you're going to be a profitable little island in short order. Do you really think they would still have the world's highest GDP per-capita income with a 0% tax rate if major international companies were somehow not able to exploit it?
    - he778 15y ago
      Why do you think wealth is a zero-sum game? Just because one country benefits economically means other countries have to lose? The pie is not fixed. It grows bigger when economies grow.
      - po 15y ago
        I don't think wealth is zero-sum. That doesn't mean that wealth cannot be transferred. In this case I believe that international companies and Bermudians gain and the average US taxpayer loses. I am more sympathetic to the average US taxpayer. I have no idea what the sum is. You seem to be arguing against an idea of what I am saying rather than what I am saying. Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
        he78 15y ago

by vaksel 15y ago

i have a feeling, that these same CEOs would pick Nigeria as a better place to do business than United States...just because they get to pay a few bucks less in taxes

he778 15y ago

That's quite a straw man. Economic freedom and property rights are more important than how much taxes you pay.

j_baker 15y ago
Exactly. CEOs need the economic freedom to treat people as property.
- he778 15y ago
  This is just completely absurd, and does not belong on HN.
- he778 15y ago
  Countries with the highest economic freedom scores in the world have the highest GDP per capitas in the world. That's factual proof that friendlier economic environments make better businesses, which benefit workers who receive the highest incomes in the world. Hong Kong and Singapore are great examples.
  - earl 15y ago
    Please, read some econ besides at heritage or cato. The correlation is not that strong, see [1] and specifically [2] [3] and [4]. [2] demolishes your argument -- look at the horizontal spread in the developed countries. These indicators are hard to measure, too; for an alternate measure, look at [3]: examine the vertical distance between Portugal and Australia. Or, if you prefer, in the middle of the graph between Ja/UK and Ireland. Or on the right side between NZ and the US. It's safe to say that economic freedom doesn't correlate all that well with GDP, not to mention that correlation neq causation. Not to mention for every Singapore there's an Ireland to match. [1] http://filipspagnoli.wordpress.com/stats-on-human-rights/statistics-on-gross-domestic-product-correlations/#4 http://filipspagnoli.wordpress.com/stats-on-human-rights/sta... [2] http://filipspagnoli.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/economic-freedom-and-income.jpg http://filipspagnoli.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/economic-fr... [3] http://filipspagnoli.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/economic-freedom-and-gdp-correlation.jpg http://filipspagnoli.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/economic-fr...
    - he78 15y ago
      This is getting a little absurd trying to argue with you since it seems like I would have to break down economic concepts to you because I know you do not come from an economics background. Any economic index, regardless of its source, will show that freer trade shows more economic growth. Singapore surpasses Ireland in terms of economic growth; also, Ireland adopted more free market principles to achieve its growth when it started to privatize its industries. All the countries you mention that have high GDP per capita and high GDP growth have high economic freedom scores. Trying to argue against freer trade for economic growth is like trying to argue with someone who says the Earth isn't round. China, India, Poland, Russia, etc., etc., grew their economies rapidly by moving to privatization and eliminating barriers to trade. Economists across the aisle support free trade; for example, read Paul Krugman's views on free trade in his Wikipedia entry (or research Goolsbee's, Geithnner's, Stglitz's, DeLong's, Sach's, Summers', etc, etc, etc, -- not to mention the plethora of economists' from across the other aisle -- views on free trade's effects on economic growth). This concept is not even debated anymore among the world's leading economists.
      - vannevar 15y ago
        Then how do you explain how heavily-regulated California has a higher GDP-per-capita than lightly-regulated Texas?
  - j_baker 15y ago
    Absolutely agreed. Social, political, and moral issues are just red herrings. Workers only care about two things: 1) How much they make and 2) How much economic freedom their employers have.
po 15y ago
He's not setting up a straw man argument; the original article is a poll of 500 top CEO's asking which state they prefer and he's saying the results are not surprising. He's not trying to refute the results of the poll. In fact, it looks like you're now starting to set up a straw man by bringing in property rights and economic freedom which are so general and irrelevant to the article as to be nothing more than a dog whistle.
- he778 15y ago
  No. He's using Nigeria's tax system as the only basis for choosing the best place to locate one's business. Many other factors contribute to a a CEO's preference.

po 15y ago

The Bermuda's 0% tax rate is a particular favorite. There were $51B in untaxed profits there in 2006. See also: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/11_16/b4224045265660.htm http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/11_16/b42240452...

he778 15y ago
...and Bermuda enjoys one of the highest per capita incomes in the world.
- po 15y ago
  …at the expense of the rest of the world. If you built a perfectly legal way for companies to get billions of dollars of income into the US tax-free and all it requires is a holding company on your island, you can be sure that you're going to be a profitable little island in short order. Do you really think they would still have the world's highest GDP per-capita income with a 0% tax rate if major international companies were somehow not able to exploit it?
  - he778 15y ago
    Why do you think wealth is a zero-sum game? Just because one country benefits economically means other countries have to lose? The pie is not fixed. It grows bigger when economies grow.
    - po 15y ago
      I don't think wealth is zero-sum. That doesn't mean that wealth cannot be transferred. In this case I believe that international companies and Bermudians gain and the average US taxpayer loses. I am more sympathetic to the average US taxpayer. I have no idea what the sum is. You seem to be arguing against an idea of what I am saying rather than what I am saying. Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
      - he78 15y ago