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Like in any trade, I'm sure that the best are great at what they do, but I suspect I'm not alone in finding that the vast majority of my interactions have not b

Like in any trade, I'm sure that the best are great at what they do, but I suspect I'm not alone in finding that the vast majority of my interactions have not been with a good sales person (and maybe by your definition not with good orgs either). I've never been told that I might be better off going elsewhere. Many times I've been told that whatever problem I describe, they can handle it, or my problem isn't what I think it is and they can handle it. I feel like short term incentivisation tends to promote dishonesty - most organisations don't seem to have feedback mechanisms to deal with a poor sales process. And like most trades, I'm sure the answer is to take it more seriously, train better, invest more in the people, etc. But the reality is for most sales jobs, as a former colleague once told me, you're never more than 2 missed targets away from being let go.

brobdingnagians 6y ago
I've had hardware stores tell me where I could get the solution that I needed at their competitor, because they didn't have it. Those are the interactions I have been most impressed with from any organization. It makes me want to buy stuff from them just to reward their honesty and helpfulness. I must admit that I haven't really had that experience from many tech companies or "professional" companies.
Aeolun 6y ago
> But the reality is for most sales jobs, as a former colleague once told me, you're never more than 2 missed targets away from being let go. That sounds... fair? It’s like having a programmer that cannot program. If your job is literally to sell, and you’re not doing it? I guess it doesn’t have to be black and white as long as you bring in more than you cost though.
- watwut 6y ago
  I can tell with certainty is that I was never ever under such pressure regarding my programming ability. I was never close to being fired and I seen only one company where people were often close to being fired due to temporary slip. Even under pressure, programmers don't really get to have hard to reach targets else they will be fired.
  - cosmodisk 6y ago
    If you'd walk into a lead dev position after only fiddling with JS for 2 weeks by watching YouTube videos, you'd be kicked out faster than any sales person ever would. The reason you felt no threat was because you knew what you were doing,or at least knew good part of it. Sales people have one purpose in companies: to sell. There's nothing else. So if,after 2,3,6 months they can't do it, then of course nobody will keep them. Only shit companies hire/fire sales people like there's unlimited supply of them waiting to join,but even the good ones won't keep them forever if they can't do the job.
    - watwut 6y ago
      There is massive difference between "the reality is for most sales jobs" and "if you get hired to position widely out of your ability". What you describe is quite unusual exceptional situation. Not nearly reality of most programming jobs.
      - cosmodisk 6y ago
        The problem is that a lot of people hired into sales positions shouldn't be allowed anywhere near it.. What I've seen: blatant lies in regulated industry with mandatory call recordings, refusal to do even the basic admin( I'm here to sell, not to fill in the info in the CRM system), fraud ( can't comment,as it's quite specific), lazyness ( watching YouTube/Facebook/Shopping while pretending your phone isn't working). The list goes on. Those people get fired. Normal people, who work, understand what they do and are willing to be trained or corrected if they do things incorrectly, are rarely,if ever, 2 paychecks away from being fired.
        watwut 6y ago
        No, sales people who lie dont get fired. Sales people who dont hit targets get fired - and those are biased towars salesman who dont lie. Those who lie sell better hit targets. Sales who do basic admin instead of selling dont get fired, they are the ones more likely to hit sales targets. The ones who do basic admin waste effort that could be used for selling and get no rewards for it anyway. > lazyness ( watching YouTube/Facebook/Shopping Completely normal among programmers.
- Ma8ee 6y ago
  The difference is that the sale also depend in the customer. It’s like firing the programmer because a failed integration when he never got any docs or anyone answered any questions about the remote system.
- tweetle_beetle 6y ago
  How much you can attribute the success of a sales person to the quality of their work is hard to know. Sometimes you get lucky and you get a hot lead which virtually signs itself, sometimes you put lots of time and effort in and for no apparent reason the client backs out at the last minute. Yet typically you are only measured on completed deals. A target driven job with unemployment as the cost of failure, judged on simple metrics which do not correlate to effort or skill, and may be almost entirely out of personal control, creates a tension that most programmers are not subject to.

brobdingnagians 6y ago

I've had hardware stores tell me where I could get the solution that I needed at their competitor, because they didn't have it. Those are the interactions I have been most impressed with from any organization. It makes me want to buy stuff from them just to reward their honesty and helpfulness. I must admit that I haven't really had that experience from many tech companies or "professional" companies.

Aeolun 6y ago

> But the reality is for most sales jobs, as a former colleague once told me, you're never more than 2 missed targets away from being let go. That sounds... fair? It’s like having a programmer that cannot program. If your job is literally to sell, and you’re not doing it? I guess it doesn’t have to be black and white as long as you bring in more than you cost though.

watwut 6y ago
I can tell with certainty is that I was never ever under such pressure regarding my programming ability. I was never close to being fired and I seen only one company where people were often close to being fired due to temporary slip. Even under pressure, programmers don't really get to have hard to reach targets else they will be fired.
- cosmodisk 6y ago
  If you'd walk into a lead dev position after only fiddling with JS for 2 weeks by watching YouTube videos, you'd be kicked out faster than any sales person ever would. The reason you felt no threat was because you knew what you were doing,or at least knew good part of it. Sales people have one purpose in companies: to sell. There's nothing else. So if,after 2,3,6 months they can't do it, then of course nobody will keep them. Only shit companies hire/fire sales people like there's unlimited supply of them waiting to join,but even the good ones won't keep them forever if they can't do the job.
  - watwut 6y ago
    There is massive difference between "the reality is for most sales jobs" and "if you get hired to position widely out of your ability". What you describe is quite unusual exceptional situation. Not nearly reality of most programming jobs.
    - cosmodisk 6y ago
      The problem is that a lot of people hired into sales positions shouldn't be allowed anywhere near it.. What I've seen: blatant lies in regulated industry with mandatory call recordings, refusal to do even the basic admin( I'm here to sell, not to fill in the info in the CRM system), fraud ( can't comment,as it's quite specific), lazyness ( watching YouTube/Facebook/Shopping while pretending your phone isn't working). The list goes on. Those people get fired. Normal people, who work, understand what they do and are willing to be trained or corrected if they do things incorrectly, are rarely,if ever, 2 paychecks away from being fired.
      - watwut 6y ago
        No, sales people who lie dont get fired. Sales people who dont hit targets get fired - and those are biased towars salesman who dont lie. Those who lie sell better hit targets. Sales who do basic admin instead of selling dont get fired, they are the ones more likely to hit sales targets. The ones who do basic admin waste effort that could be used for selling and get no rewards for it anyway. > lazyness ( watching YouTube/Facebook/Shopping Completely normal among programmers.
Ma8ee 6y ago
The difference is that the sale also depend in the customer. It’s like firing the programmer because a failed integration when he never got any docs or anyone answered any questions about the remote system.
tweetle_beetle 6y ago
How much you can attribute the success of a sales person to the quality of their work is hard to know. Sometimes you get lucky and you get a hot lead which virtually signs itself, sometimes you put lots of time and effort in and for no apparent reason the client backs out at the last minute. Yet typically you are only measured on completed deals. A target driven job with unemployment as the cost of failure, judged on simple metrics which do not correlate to effort or skill, and may be almost entirely out of personal control, creates a tension that most programmers are not subject to.