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Tesla seems to have used the same dirty trick used by oil companies to convince the public that plastics were largely "recyclable" by conflating economically pr

by d33lio 6y ago

Tesla seems to have used the same dirty trick used by oil companies to convince the public that plastics were largely "recyclable" by conflating economically productive (for Tesla) re-use of decommissioned batteries from Teslas and "recycling" of actual cells. I support the work of Elon Musk, obviously many here do not and call him a fraud, however I do take issue with how he uses this line to call the battery tech Tesla uses "renewable".

toomuchtodo 6y ago
Tesla's previous CTO and Co-founder, JB Straubel (who spent 15 years at Tesla), left to found Redwood Materials [1] (which intends to scale up battery recycling processes). Fortum, a Finnish clean energy firm (correction provided by @Sharlin), has reached an 80% recycling rate as of 2019 [2]. It's always going to be cheaper to pour end of life cells into a remanufacturing process than to extract raw lithium from brine ponds, so it makes economic sense to do the R&D to do so. It's also going to be cheaper to reuse existing, functioning cell modules (such as folks harvesting cell packs from Teslas and other EVs for stationary storage) than to landfill or recycle those materials. Batteries are mostly recyclable currently, full stop, although there is work required to make them 100% recyclable. [1] https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/ https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/ [2] https://www.pv-magazine.com/2019/03/25/innovation-boosts-lithium-ion-battery-recycling-rate-to-over-80 https://www.pv-magazine.com/2019/03/25/innovation-boosts-lit...
- Sharlin 6y ago
  > Fortum, a Finnish startup Uhuh, Fortum[1] is not exactly a startup. It is a state-owned corporation with annual revenue of about 5 billion and one of the largest players in the Nordic energy sector. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortum
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- sandworm101 6y ago
  >> Batteries are mostly recyclable currently, full stop SOME lithium batteries are recyclable, but ALL oldschool lead acid batteries are recyclable. For installations where weight/size are secondary concerns, old fashioned wet car batteries are more "green" than anything involving lithium. A used lead-acid battery is not a liability. It is a useful and profitable product that can be easily turned into other useful products... today. https://www.regionalrecycling.ca/auto-car-battery-recycling/ https://www.regionalrecycling.ca/auto-car-battery-recycling/ "Did you know you can make money recycling your old lead-acid batteries? Why not put a little extra cash in your pocket this season. *Earnings vary depending on weight. If you have 3 or more, please call (855) 701-7171 for a quote. It pays to recycle. "
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    I don't know anyone using lead acid for new stationary storage or electrified transportation applications, although you are correct that lead acid are entirely recyclable.
    - sandworm101 6y ago
      I know lots of people. The bulk of residential off-grid solar installations use lead-acid battery banks. Most all RVs and boats use lead-acid. And virtually every new car/truck/motorcycle/ATV/snowmobile/jetski, including the hybrid cars, ships with a 12v wet lead-acid battery.
      - mikestew 6y ago
        Our Nissan Leaf has a 12 volt lead-acid battery. I guess that was easier than bleeding 12 VDC off the traction battery to run the radio.
        numpad0 6y ago
        Actually it’s normal for heavy machineries to have separate low voltage power for computers and high voltage large current for actuators. Even open source 3D printers has provisions to do that if so desired.
- JumpCrisscross 6y ago
  > It's always going to be cheaper to pour end of life cells into a remanufacturing process than to extract raw lithium from brine ponds, so it makes economic sense to do the R&D to do so. This is a major point to assume away.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    I make the assumption based on existing evidence. I could be be wrong if it gets drastically cheaper to source lithium, nickel, and iron from mining operations versus concentrated ore in end of life cells. Doesn’t seem likely based on mining costs and the demand curve (demand will increase as fast or faster than reserves can be sourced), as well as jurisdictions mandating manufacturers stand up recycling supply chains for the products they're building and selling (California did this with solar PV, many others have done it for electronics recycling in general, for example). I would be willing to make a Long Bet [1] on this point. Accountability is important. [1] https://longbets.org/ https://longbets.org/
  - imtringued 6y ago
    Lithium does not suffer from undesired pigmentation and overabundance of too many completely different types of lithium the way plastics do. Plastics are composites so if you were to extract the elements out of them then you would end up with carbon and hydrogen which unfortunately aren't plastic. With lithium all you have to do is extract the lithium elements. Aluminum and iron recycling is viable because they are elements in their own right.
bryanlarsen 6y ago
I'm having trouble following your argument. Are you saying it's bad that Tesla batteries are being reused instead of recycled? Or are you claiming that Tesla is taking credit for the reuse and that's bad? Musk has stated publicly that they will recycle Tesla batteries once they become available in enough volume to make it viable. He'd be stupid not to -- they will be a cheaper source of nickel and cobalt than digging it out of the ground. But reuse is better than recycling, so recycling should remain in the future as long as possible.
- d33lio 6y ago
  Re-use != Recycling
  - tuatoru 6y ago
    That's right, it's better. The old mantra "reduce, re-use, recycle" is in that order because that's the order of "greenness". Recycling should be the last resort.
    - 0xffff2 6y ago
      Re-use of a battery is fine, but it's a stop-gap. The battery will eventually reach a state of health where it isn't useful in any application anymore, so recycling is still necessary. The "re-use" step just delays that a bit.
      - bryanlarsen 6y ago
        Exactly, so stop worrying about recycling. It'll happen when it's viable, and not before. Batteries are a way too important source of valuable materials to not be recycled.
8note 6y ago
The preference order is Reduce, Reuse, then Recycle. If they're going hard on Reuse, that's better than if they jumped straight to Recycle from a green perspective. If Tesla is ending up with all these batteries in the end, we've also done another good thing for recycling, which is forcing Tesla, the producer, to deal with how to dispose of them, which is not the case with oil companies

by d33lio 6y ago

toomuchtodo 6y ago

Tesla's previous CTO and Co-founder, JB Straubel (who spent 15 years at Tesla), left to found Redwood Materials [1] (which intends to scale up battery recycling processes). Fortum, a Finnish clean energy firm (correction provided by @Sharlin), has reached an 80% recycling rate as of 2019 [2]. It's always going to be cheaper to pour end of life cells into a remanufacturing process than to extract raw lithium from brine ponds, so it makes economic sense to do the R&D to do so. It's also going to be cheaper to reuse existing, functioning cell modules (such as folks harvesting cell packs from Teslas and other EVs for stationary storage) than to landfill or recycle those materials. Batteries are mostly recyclable currently, full stop, although there is work required to make them 100% recyclable. [1] https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/ https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/ [2] https://www.pv-magazine.com/2019/03/25/innovation-boosts-lithium-ion-battery-recycling-rate-to-over-80 https://www.pv-magazine.com/2019/03/25/innovation-boosts-lit...

Sharlin 6y ago
> Fortum, a Finnish startup Uhuh, Fortum[1] is not exactly a startup. It is a state-owned corporation with annual revenue of about 5 billion and one of the largest players in the Nordic energy sector. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortum
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
sandworm101 6y ago
>> Batteries are mostly recyclable currently, full stop SOME lithium batteries are recyclable, but ALL oldschool lead acid batteries are recyclable. For installations where weight/size are secondary concerns, old fashioned wet car batteries are more "green" than anything involving lithium. A used lead-acid battery is not a liability. It is a useful and profitable product that can be easily turned into other useful products... today. https://www.regionalrecycling.ca/auto-car-battery-recycling/ https://www.regionalrecycling.ca/auto-car-battery-recycling/ "Did you know you can make money recycling your old lead-acid batteries? Why not put a little extra cash in your pocket this season. *Earnings vary depending on weight. If you have 3 or more, please call (855) 701-7171 for a quote. It pays to recycle. "
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  I don't know anyone using lead acid for new stationary storage or electrified transportation applications, although you are correct that lead acid are entirely recyclable.
  - sandworm101 6y ago
    I know lots of people. The bulk of residential off-grid solar installations use lead-acid battery banks. Most all RVs and boats use lead-acid. And virtually every new car/truck/motorcycle/ATV/snowmobile/jetski, including the hybrid cars, ships with a 12v wet lead-acid battery.
    - mikestew 6y ago
      Our Nissan Leaf has a 12 volt lead-acid battery. I guess that was easier than bleeding 12 VDC off the traction battery to run the radio.
      - numpad0 6y ago
        Actually it’s normal for heavy machineries to have separate low voltage power for computers and high voltage large current for actuators. Even open source 3D printers has provisions to do that if so desired.
JumpCrisscross 6y ago
> It's always going to be cheaper to pour end of life cells into a remanufacturing process than to extract raw lithium from brine ponds, so it makes economic sense to do the R&D to do so. This is a major point to assume away.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  I make the assumption based on existing evidence. I could be be wrong if it gets drastically cheaper to source lithium, nickel, and iron from mining operations versus concentrated ore in end of life cells. Doesn’t seem likely based on mining costs and the demand curve (demand will increase as fast or faster than reserves can be sourced), as well as jurisdictions mandating manufacturers stand up recycling supply chains for the products they're building and selling (California did this with solar PV, many others have done it for electronics recycling in general, for example). I would be willing to make a Long Bet [1] on this point. Accountability is important. [1] https://longbets.org/ https://longbets.org/
- imtringued 6y ago
  Lithium does not suffer from undesired pigmentation and overabundance of too many completely different types of lithium the way plastics do. Plastics are composites so if you were to extract the elements out of them then you would end up with carbon and hydrogen which unfortunately aren't plastic. With lithium all you have to do is extract the lithium elements. Aluminum and iron recycling is viable because they are elements in their own right.

bryanlarsen 6y ago

I'm having trouble following your argument. Are you saying it's bad that Tesla batteries are being reused instead of recycled? Or are you claiming that Tesla is taking credit for the reuse and that's bad? Musk has stated publicly that they will recycle Tesla batteries once they become available in enough volume to make it viable. He'd be stupid not to -- they will be a cheaper source of nickel and cobalt than digging it out of the ground. But reuse is better than recycling, so recycling should remain in the future as long as possible.

d33lio 6y ago
Re-use != Recycling
- tuatoru 6y ago
  That's right, it's better. The old mantra "reduce, re-use, recycle" is in that order because that's the order of "greenness". Recycling should be the last resort.
  - 0xffff2 6y ago
    Re-use of a battery is fine, but it's a stop-gap. The battery will eventually reach a state of health where it isn't useful in any application anymore, so recycling is still necessary. The "re-use" step just delays that a bit.
    - bryanlarsen 6y ago
      Exactly, so stop worrying about recycling. It'll happen when it's viable, and not before. Batteries are a way too important source of valuable materials to not be recycled.

8note 6y ago

The preference order is Reduce, Reuse, then Recycle. If they're going hard on Reuse, that's better than if they jumped straight to Recycle from a green perspective. If Tesla is ending up with all these batteries in the end, we've also done another good thing for recycling, which is forcing Tesla, the producer, to deal with how to dispose of them, which is not the case with oil companies