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I'd like to share my sleeping practice which I've developed after several years of focusing on it and trying to recreate the pre-industrial (and possibly pre-fa

I'd like to share my sleeping practice which I've developed after several years of focusing on it and trying to recreate the pre-industrial (and possibly pre-farming) sleep patterns my ancestors had for millions of years before the last few thousand. Whenever I feel tired, I lay down to rest. Whenever I am sleeping, I allow myself to sleep until I am "fully slept", meaning I can lay there for a while, still physically resting, and not fall asleep. Sometimes this means only a couple hours, and sometimes it's 16 or more. Whatever it is, if I am tired and want to keep sleeping, that's what I do. A couple of times I think I was coming down with something, I slept for more than 24 hours with only pee breaks. And I woke up feeling fresh as a cucumber, as they say. Those flus and colds which I used to get once or twice a year and which would sometimes drag on for weeks? I can't remember the last time I've had that happen, but it's been several years now. (Of course, I have several other practices to thank for this, in addition to the sleep.) I also practice what I call "dog sleep" or "cat sleep", meaning I lay down and close my eyes and fully rest my body, without necessarily losing all alertness or consciousness. My rewards have been improved cognition, better health and overall feeling, and still being able to do occasional coding marathons like I used to when I was half my current age. We've been conditioned to think of sleep as laziness and sloth, but nothing could be further from the truth on the cellular level. When you rest, your cells go to work cleaning, rebuilding, and renewing your body. Your mind also does sorting and self-analysis, and returns the results in the form of remembered dreams.

Rivosa 6y ago
> 24h sleep I advise anyone reading this and experiencing similar sleep pattern or fatigue to visit their doctor. This could be anything from diabetes, iron difeciency, Vitamin D difeciancy, and whole other things that could be wrong. Please don't use someone's else experience as the whole truth.
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  Edit: I want to preface this by saying that I'm not writing off modern medicine, nor post-modern medicine, nor saying that you should avoid doctors altogether. Just that it's a powerful and thus dangerous tool, and that you should ideally find a doctor you trust and then maintain contact with them, probably by visiting them regularly, now that I think about it, and maybe occasionally giving them a nice gift. :) I advise the exact opposite, to visit doctors as little as possible, unless you experience pain which does not go away after a day or two. In my experience, doctors will find something to do with you, and it will rarely work out to your advantage, unless it is emergency medicine. My personal experiences: One doctor told me I need to get circumcised because I had minor irritation on my glans due to a scratch, which I told them about. Another doctor insisted, without even looking at my X-rays, IIRC, that the cast on my broken hand was not sufficient, and that I needed him to take the cast off and perform surgery, or I would not be able to use my hand properly again. If I had listened to these doctors instead of thinking for myself, I'd be without my precious foreskin and undergone unnecessary surgery, which would've delayed my getting better.
  - baby 6y ago
    I think it’s good to recognize that medicine, like any field, is approximative and imperfect. Lots of people wing it or have different opinions. Doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t see a doctor if something happens to you, but indeed most medicine is reactive, and most preventive medicine you’ll receive automatically.
  - dennisgorelik 6y ago
    Multiple dentists found multiple "problems" with my teeths (without me ever complaining). Fortunately for me, their diagnoses did not overlap with other dentists. Several years later of me doing nothing (except regular dental cleaning) - I am still comfortable with my teeth.
  - hutzlibu 6y ago
    I believe the problem with doctors is, that they a) usually do not have much time for each patient to really do a whole body analysis and b) that the idea of viewing the body as a whole and not seperated parts like a machine still has not made their way fully into all of them yet
    - forgotmypw17 6y ago
      You're right on both counts. Doctors are encouraged to systematize and commoditize their "care", and few are able to stand up to the pressure. The few who are worth treasuring and showering with support.
  - licebmi__at__ 6y ago
    It might have something to do with incentives. In my country most people would complain that the doctor doesn’t do anything to them, and based on my experience living with doctors all my life (parents, sisters and now wife), I see they are actually bothered by people taking their time without reason and not being able to pay proper attention to the ones who do need it.
  - Valakas 6y ago
    I have the opposite experience. I had fears of having heart problems, or in my head, and at some point in my life I went to doctors and they all sent me away, they couldn't find anything wrong. The more incompetent ones might have more suspicious, because they were playing it safe. Better to order more tests and not find anything, than be confident and make a fatal mistake. One of them even went as far as telling me "Man, there's so many people sick ou there and you're here wasting your time and money while you're damn healthy. Go enjoy life :)" Maybe doctors think differently in the US or you were just unlucky?
- risyachka 6y ago
  I believe you should visit a doctor only if this happens at least with some pattern. If you sleep 24 hours twice a year and all other time you sleep 7-9 - it is a reason to see a doctor?
  - Rivosa 6y ago
    I'd say yes. 24 hours sleep is just insane. Unless you had a long travel journey with several flights and a lot of stress. If however, you had a normal day before and you slept 24h several times, then yes go see a doctor. At least do a blood check to be sure.
    - forgotmypw17 6y ago
      You said it yourself, unless you're under a lot of stress. Sometimes the stress is not obvious.
srl 6y ago
> A couple of times I think I was coming down with something, I slept for more than 24 hours with only pee breaks. And I woke up feeling fresh as a cucumber, as they say. I don't really take sleeping that seriously in general, but I used to get sick pretty frequently (sick enough to not work, a couple times a year). Nowadays I have a routine, and it's not so different: if I feel a tiny bit sick, I go home, lie in bed, and order semi-healthy Mediterranean food (I have specific cravings when I get sick -- is this common?). I stay that way until I can't stand being in bed any more. I also avoid any source of stress. The number of days per year when I'm sick has probably gone down by a factor of 4: I get properly sick half as often, and when I am sick, I get better much faster. Almost as importantly, getting sick is no longer "miserable" in the same way. It seems a substantial part of the misery of being sick (with something mild, like a cold or, at my age, flu) just comes from trying to do things you shouldn't try to do. Lying in bed and executing a nap/snack/pee/read loop... that's not so bad. (As others in this thread love to point out, this doesn't work for people with bad sick leave, or stressful jobs, or single parents, and so on and so forth. That's a strong case for sick leave etc., as far as I see.)
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  Yes, I typically crave chicken broth. In fact, I know that if I find myself craving chicken, I'm probably coming down with something, and it's time to do what you describe above. I'm grateful to the sacrifices of all the chickens I've consumed over the years. May their spirits feel my gratitude and find peace in helping me.
- baby 6y ago
  Yeah I have specific food needs when I get sick as well. Personally I used to be sick all the time until I met my SO. Having someone that makes you mentally stable is a huge change imo.
- hutzlibu 6y ago
  "I also avoid any source of stress." This very much. And I go crazy lying in bed for long, so for me I rather find a quiet spot in nature in the sun (or shade), even if I am quite sick. A river is perfect. And then just sit or lie for hours. But I live close to wild nature, so I could not do this if I would have to drive through some rush hour to get there.
random3 6y ago
How are you measuring "improved cognition, better health and overall feeling"?
- melq 6y ago
  I don't think you need to measure having a better overall feeling. If someone says they feel poorly then they feel poorly. Suppose there was some object way to measure such a thing, what are you going to do with that metric? Imagine being depressed and going to the doctor only for them to say, "no you're not, look at this metric!".
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  It's just an overall sense of being able to remember things, think several consecutive thoughts through, clarity when programming, ability to stay attentive and on track, social ability, and so on. Also, I used to be very depressed all the time, and now it rarely happens. I've experienced many different layers of both cognitive health and cognitive impairment, and I also practice mindfulness, so I am able to assess this pretty well. I have something to compare to: I used to be able to program all day every day when I was younger. I've also had several instances of TBI. I've had times when I tried to follow a schedule which didn't work for me for both corporate jobs and startups. I've been depressed and at peace, in love and with a broken heart. All of these things can be helpful or debilitating, or even both. I compare my assessments in comparison with all of these different experiences. The difference between my current practice and getting 8 hours a day on a schedule is... I don't even know how to describe it.
  - rubicon33 6y ago
    And to what do you attribute these changes? It sounds like changing your sleep was THE factor? Or were there other things? I know people who have dramatically changed their diet, and espoused similar life changing revelations... Almost word for word, to what you're describing.
    - forgotmypw17 6y ago
filleokus 6y ago
In principle this sounds pretty ideal. Sleeping, or resting, when you need and not force an arbitrary societal schedule on yourself. But, I'm guessing that you don't go into an office nor have a lot of meetings? Do you live alone or does it work with a family around the house?
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  My circumstances vary. If I'm sharing space with someone, I ask that they don't wake me up unless it's urgent, and that they don't talk to or engage me after I wake up, until I signal that I'm ready. No, I don't go into the office anymore. I live a pauper's existence compared to the past, when I lived like royalty, "earning" enough to pay rent on my own nice apartment in Manhattan, buying new clothes and things regularly, as much as whatever food I wanted, and so on. Though compared to majority of humans and other animals, I'm still doing very well in terms of survival and comfort. My finances are almost non-existence, and my sense of happiness and self-fulfillment is through the roof.
  - rubicon33 6y ago
    I'm interested in hearing more about you, your life, where you were, why you changed, and how it's affected you. I'm guessing you were in a situation like many people I know (including myself). Well off, couldn't really reasonably ask for much more, yet still chasing happiness like a carrot on a stick. Tired, unmotivated, and forever looking for the next thing to feel better. Diet, sleep, and exercise are all "in check". (Not micro managed by any means, but certainly not eating fast food, alcohol, and sleeping poor for example).
    - forgotmypw17 6y ago
      I'm a creative person by nature, blessed with being allowed to figure out how things work by taking them apart when I was a child. I didn't hear "No" very often. Eventually, I found myself working on software maintenance at a bank, a job I become attached to because I thought I wasn't worth much without a degree. I worked there for 5 years. In corporate, my three role models have been Wally, Costanza, and Gibbons, so I can't say I strained myself too much. I probably spent more time entertaining myself online than proper "working". I was comfortable, and for a while I thought I'd beat the system. I was certainly better off than many who struggle daily. I worked on CMBS, from the flush days pre-2007, through the crisis, and into times of slow attrition and incremental cost-cutting. Eventually, I was laid off. I scrambled to find another job, was fired after a month or two for regular and unrepentant tardiness, and then got another one and stayed there for about 3/4 of a year until being laid off. I rode out six months on unemployment, also eating through my savings. I realized that with five years at the bank on my resume, it will be much easier to find another job, so I did that. I went on a spree of under-a-year stints at different companies, enjoying the first month honeymoon, integration and learning phase, leaving when I became bored. At this point, I could find a new job before leaving the old one, and my work was good enough that there were no hard feelings. Regardless of how long I worked somewhere, I contributed and was a net positive. After getting one small raise at the bank over five years, I doubled my salary in three. I was so happy to tell my family that I broke the six figures mark, and they were proud of me. It sounds good on paper, but here is the problem. Of all the different places I worked "professionally" in 20 years, there is maybe one or two projects that are still in use. Most of what I'd worked on is gone forever, there's probably not a copy left anywhere. Of the systems that are still in use, they're used by a handful of people, and will never see the "light of day" outside of their cellar. Of all the systems I've worked on, I can only think of one which actually contributed something positive to the world. Most of them were basically negative karma for me. I played a small part in selling unsound financial instruments, which ruined many people, and left many without a house to live in. I helped integrate advertising into webpages, which helped invade people's privacy and reduce the quality of their Web experience. I worked on countless advertising campaigns, which amounted to helping convince my fellow humans to spend their precious resources on things which would probably harm them, like sugar delivery products and oil drilling. But the worst of it was that my time was largely out of my control, under the control of someone else. Even if I did absolutely no work at the office and spent all my time browsing [redacted], I was still obligated to get up at a certain time, show up and spend the better portion of a day there, dress a certain way, etc. Eventually, I realized that this was unsustainable, so I started unsubscribing from those things one by one. One of the first things I unsubscribed from was paying monthly rent. This allowed me to unsubscribe from having to work full-time. I think unsubscribed from many other things, one at a time. I learned that if you make it a priority, and only change one small thing at a time, there is little to fear and much to gain. Not only that, but my life became infinitely richer and more interesting. One of the most incredible changes I've experienced is that I no longer get that feeling of, "wow, that was 3 years ago? feels just like yesterday... time flies". In fact, I have the opposite experience often, when I think, "wow, it feels like that was 3 years ago, but it's only been a couple of weeks". I attribute this to the amount of new and unique experiences I have every day, which used to be close to zero, and is now several per day. I might come back and write more, but I have to go for now. Thank you for asking your question, and I hope this helps. One more thing: If you consider the quantum nature of our Universe, and the power of observation and intention, you will begin to see just how powerful your intention is, especially when you intend well, and work to improve your karma every day. There's a lot more to our Universe than today's science admits, it's tuned for love and enjoyment, savoring, and if you focus your attention, incredible, magical things will begin to manifest. I say this as a clear-minded computer programmer and systems maintainer who's spent most of my life figuring out how systems work and experimenting with them.
rajinikantham 6y ago
Do you have children? If yes, how on earth is this doable?
- mattbee 6y ago
  This reply works for a lot of self-improvement advice I read on HN.
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  No, of course this would be somewhat different with children. However, this is how I would also raise a child, letting them sleep as much and whenever they want. When I was a child myself, my parents were in disagreement. My dad's opinion that I should be "broken in" so that I am better able to integrate into society. My mom thought more along the lines of what I describe. Seeing that my dad had a societal job while my mom raised me, she largely won out. I think I have her defense and sheltering of me to thank for being blessed with rarely having problems in this department.
  - lqet 6y ago
    > However, this is how I would also raise a child, letting them sleep as much and whenever they want. With small kids, the problem is usually not you trying to force a schedule on the kid, but the kid forcing a schedule on you.
    - forgotmypw17 6y ago
      Yes, of course, their schedule takes priority. We can't always sleep as much as we want to, even without kids. But I've certainly made it a high priority.
- hndamien 6y ago
  Let them sleep when they are tired and wake when they want.
  - treeman79 6y ago
dorkwood 6y ago
This is similar to my "drink when you're thirsty" method for remaining hydrated. There's a whole industry built on the premise that we're unable to regulate our own water intake without the help of apps and special water bottles. I've not found that to be the case myself.
- vestrigi 6y ago
  I guess I use the same method. For a year or so, I forced myself to drink an additional liter of water per day and I didn’t feel any difference from it, except that I had to go to the toilet all the time. The only problem that arises now is that I tend to forget that I’m a bit thirsty because of the ubiquitous distractions in our lives.
  - forgotmypw17 6y ago
    hyper-optimized distractions are one of our new challenges we face today as attentional beings. hyper-mindfulness and hyper-awareness is one of the best tools I've found to overcome them.
    - eru 6y ago
      Though compare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperfocus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperfocus
      - forgotmypw17 6y ago
        Yeah... I think it's laughable, preposterous to call focus and flow a "disorder." Whoever wants to call me being able to focus on a task at hand a disorder can stuff it up their butt.
        jrumbut 6y ago
        The first component of any disorder is that it's causing a problem. If you like it and it's not harming others then it's not a disorder regardless of what condition it may resemble.
asdf333 6y ago
you do not sound like you have kids. if you do, how do you possibly achieve this with kids.
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  I think with kids it's not possible, have to make some sacrifices. I think it's important to have multiple full-time caretakers.
drclau 6y ago
How do you handle noise? Do you live in a house or apartment building?
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  My living arrangements vary. If there is noise, I wake up and then go back to sleep. If it keeps repeating, I gradually get used to it and it doesn't wake me anymore. I surely sometimes have to get up when I don't want to, it just happens less often than it used to, every couple days or weeks rather than every morning.
  - drclau 6y ago
    Thanks for answering. One more question, how about eating? Do you allow for some time before sleeping, as a rule?
    - forgotmypw17 6y ago
      I try to not eat for an hour or two before bed, but it doesn't often work out that way. In many places, I have food available to me around the clock in nearly unlimited quantities, which I also think is not natural and potentially harmful, but them's the breaks. When I wake up, I usually don't eat for several hours, nor do I have any desire to, as my digestive system is still "booting up". I have heard countless times from various wise beings that drinking a glass of clean water after waking up is very beneficial, so I do that. Sometimes it is yesterday's tea, though. My ideal eating technique is once a day, and then maybe a few light snacks here and there. It's to avoid processed food, meaning anything which I didn't see its original form of and wasn't prepared by someone I know, whether it is grinding up or mixing, and to avoid things with multiple ingredients. However, because I co-exist with others who are not as far along as me, I stray from this quite a bit. I partially alleviate it with occasional water fasting to give myself a chance to clear out the junk. (When I say "natural", it's shorthand for "how our life was for millions of years and what evolution tuned our bodies for".)
- stevewodil 6y ago
  If you have trouble with noise try getting a white noise machine to drown out the other noises. I have upstairs neighbors and my bedroom is attached to the kitchen here, so there's often quite a bit of noise. The white noise machine has helped a lot for me. I didn't like it at first but got used to it eventually
justsomeuser 6y ago
I always seem to need between 12 and 15 hours sleep, which makes life difficult as I do not fit into the normal 9-5 schedule. I do not understand how people can live off 7 hours of sleep each night. It seems a big advantage though - they have 5 hours more per day.
- hutzlibu 6y ago
  I met people who slept never more than 5 hours. Each to his own I guess. Some maybe do not need as much but those people probably payed for it later. But if you really need 12-15 hours constantly you might actually have some condition that could be treated.
- tubularhells 6y ago
  And a higher risk of cancer, dementia, diabetes.
graeme 6y ago
> Whenever I feel tired, I lay down to rest. >Whenever I am sleeping, I allow myself to sleep until I am "fully slept", meaning I can lay there for a while, still physically resting, and not fall asleep. Do you mean in the day you rest, and you sleep at night? Or you mean you might sleep four hours in the day and four at night? Not sure if the first line means rest in the sense of cat sleep, or actual sleep.
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  I think every time of day has its beauty and advantage, so I generally don't follow a strict sleeping schedule. Recently, thanks to my living circumstances, I generally stay up working through the night until sunrise, then sleep until about noon or a couple hours past, get up and start my day, do a couple hours of work, take a break for a walk, do some housework and socializing, and then around midnight, plus or minus midnight, start getting into working. Throughout the day, I may feel tired, and that's when I take a break and lay down, sometimes cat-napping, sometimes dog-sleeping, and sometimes taking a legit nap. Other times I may follow a "neo-traditional" schedule of getting up early in the morning and going to bed early-ish at night, maybe with a nap or two thrown in. I may go to bed at dusk and then get up for a couple hours in the night, as people used to do commonly before artificial lighting. If I am camping, it depends on the weather. In colder weather, there's a major advantage to sleeping during the day in that the sun keeps you warm. It's easier to stay warm through the night's cold awake and alert than tired and asleep. If the weather is nice around the clock and there's plenty to do, I may only sleep a couple hours a night, the excitement of new experiences carrying me. Rainy or gray weather typically means sleeping more.
chordalkeyboard 6y ago
> Of course, I have several other practices to thank for this, in addition to the sleep. I would like to hear these other practices as well. I think your sleep practices are sound and derived from a solid theoretical basis.
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  In short: meditation, clean water, much tea, unprocessed natural food, regular natural exercise, not sitting in the same position too long, mindful intention, devoted study and marvel of universe.
throwawayamzn1 6y ago
What are your other practices, I love this pre-industrial modality
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  I've written a few comments in this tree, please let me know if you'd like to know anything else I haven't mentioned.
zascrash 6y ago
I used to think that our body know better. But I realise it doesn't do what is better but rather what it is used to do. I felt I had to eat sweets frequently, drink coca-coca everyday and 3 meals a day etc. My body felt terrible when I didn't. I stopped listed to what my body wanted and consciously stop those things. First week it was really painful. Second week I got used to. Third week I completely changed. Now I have to force myself do eat sweets, drink soda or having so many meals a day. I still listen my body about drink water and not sure if I should really listen it when it comes to sleep.
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  Our body evolved for an environment without those things that you listed. I think you were right to consciously remove those things from its access. Sleep was always an essential part of the equation, however. Try to imagine how you lived 10K years ago.
  - Ma8ee 6y ago
    Yes, sleep was always essential, but we didn’t have artificial lights and didn’t spend most of our days sitting on our asses. Both are things that probably disturb our natural sleep clues.
    - forgotmypw17 6y ago
      Sure... But I'm not giving those up for now. Not sleeping enough for optimal function, I'm not as attached to.
      - Ma8ee 6y ago
        I didn’t suggest that you shouldn’t sleep enough, just that our feelings about how much we need to sleep might not be reliable, in either direction. Maybe we would benefit from sleeping even more than we do because we rarely are physically exhausted at the end of the day.
rapind 6y ago
I did something very similar for a few years before I had kids. It was great! (So is being a father of course) unfortunately I can’t find a way to make it work as a Dad, as everything is so scheduled now. Hopefully when they’re older I can get back into it. It definitely worked well for me too.
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  Thank you for encouragement.
mathattack 6y ago
Was it hard to get your life to shift around your sleep patterns? (If you sleep in and skip a bunch of meetings without notice or miss your kids soccer game) Conceptually you are on to something. Pushing exhaustion isn’t smart.
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  It was challenging, but at some point I realized that if I didn't prioritize my health and sustainability of my existence, no one else would do it for me. All those meetings and deadlines and business software would mean nothing.
licebmi__at__ 6y ago
It seems like yo do enjoy your lifestyle, but man, sleeping more than 8 hours, even when sick, seems impossible for me. I do have some kind of FOMO, not really about being hyper productive but to be conscious, I could consider a perfectly well spent day even if I just lazed in bed, but i would need to be able to even think about stuff, watch the ceiling or just feel the sheets on my hands. With how little time I have on this planet and all the possible experiences, I would definitely do without sleeping if I could.
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  What if you could be twice as efficient, aware, productive in your waking hours, but it "cost" you another 2 hours of sleep? Would you do it then?
  - licebmi__at__ 6y ago
    I don't think I could buy that. It's not about efficiency or productiveness, it's about being. At this level, I don't even care about accomplishing stuff, just existing is fine. It's more like a fear of the darkness and the lack of consciousness when I'm asleep, that's why I framed it as a FOMO.
Reflecticon 6y ago
Love it! You are light-years ahead of me. I recently came up with analogy of pet sleep, like you said, cats and dogs just sleep here and there if the feel like it. I tried to implement that on my weekends but wasn't very successful so far. How do you keep your sleep rhythms while you're working?
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  I work whenever not sleeping or otherwise occupied. I've set a goal for myself of one commit daily, and I usually overshoot.

Rivosa 6y ago

> 24h sleep I advise anyone reading this and experiencing similar sleep pattern or fatigue to visit their doctor. This could be anything from diabetes, iron difeciency, Vitamin D difeciancy, and whole other things that could be wrong. Please don't use someone's else experience as the whole truth.

forgotmypw17 6y ago
Edit: I want to preface this by saying that I'm not writing off modern medicine, nor post-modern medicine, nor saying that you should avoid doctors altogether. Just that it's a powerful and thus dangerous tool, and that you should ideally find a doctor you trust and then maintain contact with them, probably by visiting them regularly, now that I think about it, and maybe occasionally giving them a nice gift. :) I advise the exact opposite, to visit doctors as little as possible, unless you experience pain which does not go away after a day or two. In my experience, doctors will find something to do with you, and it will rarely work out to your advantage, unless it is emergency medicine. My personal experiences: One doctor told me I need to get circumcised because I had minor irritation on my glans due to a scratch, which I told them about. Another doctor insisted, without even looking at my X-rays, IIRC, that the cast on my broken hand was not sufficient, and that I needed him to take the cast off and perform surgery, or I would not be able to use my hand properly again. If I had listened to these doctors instead of thinking for myself, I'd be without my precious foreskin and undergone unnecessary surgery, which would've delayed my getting better.
- baby 6y ago
  I think it’s good to recognize that medicine, like any field, is approximative and imperfect. Lots of people wing it or have different opinions. Doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t see a doctor if something happens to you, but indeed most medicine is reactive, and most preventive medicine you’ll receive automatically.
- dennisgorelik 6y ago
  Multiple dentists found multiple "problems" with my teeths (without me ever complaining). Fortunately for me, their diagnoses did not overlap with other dentists. Several years later of me doing nothing (except regular dental cleaning) - I am still comfortable with my teeth.
- hutzlibu 6y ago
  I believe the problem with doctors is, that they a) usually do not have much time for each patient to really do a whole body analysis and b) that the idea of viewing the body as a whole and not seperated parts like a machine still has not made their way fully into all of them yet
  - forgotmypw17 6y ago
    You're right on both counts. Doctors are encouraged to systematize and commoditize their "care", and few are able to stand up to the pressure. The few who are worth treasuring and showering with support.
- licebmi__at__ 6y ago
  It might have something to do with incentives. In my country most people would complain that the doctor doesn’t do anything to them, and based on my experience living with doctors all my life (parents, sisters and now wife), I see they are actually bothered by people taking their time without reason and not being able to pay proper attention to the ones who do need it.
- Valakas 6y ago
  I have the opposite experience. I had fears of having heart problems, or in my head, and at some point in my life I went to doctors and they all sent me away, they couldn't find anything wrong. The more incompetent ones might have more suspicious, because they were playing it safe. Better to order more tests and not find anything, than be confident and make a fatal mistake. One of them even went as far as telling me "Man, there's so many people sick ou there and you're here wasting your time and money while you're damn healthy. Go enjoy life :)" Maybe doctors think differently in the US or you were just unlucky?
risyachka 6y ago
I believe you should visit a doctor only if this happens at least with some pattern. If you sleep 24 hours twice a year and all other time you sleep 7-9 - it is a reason to see a doctor?
- Rivosa 6y ago
  I'd say yes. 24 hours sleep is just insane. Unless you had a long travel journey with several flights and a lot of stress. If however, you had a normal day before and you slept 24h several times, then yes go see a doctor. At least do a blood check to be sure.
  - forgotmypw17 6y ago
    You said it yourself, unless you're under a lot of stress. Sometimes the stress is not obvious.

srl 6y ago

> A couple of times I think I was coming down with something, I slept for more than 24 hours with only pee breaks. And I woke up feeling fresh as a cucumber, as they say. I don't really take sleeping that seriously in general, but I used to get sick pretty frequently (sick enough to not work, a couple times a year). Nowadays I have a routine, and it's not so different: if I feel a tiny bit sick, I go home, lie in bed, and order semi-healthy Mediterranean food (I have specific cravings when I get sick -- is this common?). I stay that way until I can't stand being in bed any more. I also avoid any source of stress. The number of days per year when I'm sick has probably gone down by a factor of 4: I get properly sick half as often, and when I am sick, I get better much faster. Almost as importantly, getting sick is no longer "miserable" in the same way. It seems a substantial part of the misery of being sick (with something mild, like a cold or, at my age, flu) just comes from trying to do things you shouldn't try to do. Lying in bed and executing a nap/snack/pee/read loop... that's not so bad. (As others in this thread love to point out, this doesn't work for people with bad sick leave, or stressful jobs, or single parents, and so on and so forth. That's a strong case for sick leave etc., as far as I see.)

forgotmypw17 6y ago
Yes, I typically crave chicken broth. In fact, I know that if I find myself craving chicken, I'm probably coming down with something, and it's time to do what you describe above. I'm grateful to the sacrifices of all the chickens I've consumed over the years. May their spirits feel my gratitude and find peace in helping me.
baby 6y ago
Yeah I have specific food needs when I get sick as well. Personally I used to be sick all the time until I met my SO. Having someone that makes you mentally stable is a huge change imo.
hutzlibu 6y ago
"I also avoid any source of stress." This very much. And I go crazy lying in bed for long, so for me I rather find a quiet spot in nature in the sun (or shade), even if I am quite sick. A river is perfect. And then just sit or lie for hours. But I live close to wild nature, so I could not do this if I would have to drive through some rush hour to get there.

random3 6y ago

How are you measuring "improved cognition, better health and overall feeling"?

melq 6y ago
I don't think you need to measure having a better overall feeling. If someone says they feel poorly then they feel poorly. Suppose there was some object way to measure such a thing, what are you going to do with that metric? Imagine being depressed and going to the doctor only for them to say, "no you're not, look at this metric!".
forgotmypw17 6y ago
It's just an overall sense of being able to remember things, think several consecutive thoughts through, clarity when programming, ability to stay attentive and on track, social ability, and so on. Also, I used to be very depressed all the time, and now it rarely happens. I've experienced many different layers of both cognitive health and cognitive impairment, and I also practice mindfulness, so I am able to assess this pretty well. I have something to compare to: I used to be able to program all day every day when I was younger. I've also had several instances of TBI. I've had times when I tried to follow a schedule which didn't work for me for both corporate jobs and startups. I've been depressed and at peace, in love and with a broken heart. All of these things can be helpful or debilitating, or even both. I compare my assessments in comparison with all of these different experiences. The difference between my current practice and getting 8 hours a day on a schedule is... I don't even know how to describe it.
- rubicon33 6y ago
  And to what do you attribute these changes? It sounds like changing your sleep was THE factor? Or were there other things? I know people who have dramatically changed their diet, and espoused similar life changing revelations... Almost word for word, to what you're describing.
  - forgotmypw17 6y ago

filleokus 6y ago

In principle this sounds pretty ideal. Sleeping, or resting, when you need and not force an arbitrary societal schedule on yourself. But, I'm guessing that you don't go into an office nor have a lot of meetings? Do you live alone or does it work with a family around the house?

forgotmypw17 6y ago
My circumstances vary. If I'm sharing space with someone, I ask that they don't wake me up unless it's urgent, and that they don't talk to or engage me after I wake up, until I signal that I'm ready. No, I don't go into the office anymore. I live a pauper's existence compared to the past, when I lived like royalty, "earning" enough to pay rent on my own nice apartment in Manhattan, buying new clothes and things regularly, as much as whatever food I wanted, and so on. Though compared to majority of humans and other animals, I'm still doing very well in terms of survival and comfort. My finances are almost non-existence, and my sense of happiness and self-fulfillment is through the roof.
- rubicon33 6y ago
  I'm interested in hearing more about you, your life, where you were, why you changed, and how it's affected you. I'm guessing you were in a situation like many people I know (including myself). Well off, couldn't really reasonably ask for much more, yet still chasing happiness like a carrot on a stick. Tired, unmotivated, and forever looking for the next thing to feel better. Diet, sleep, and exercise are all "in check". (Not micro managed by any means, but certainly not eating fast food, alcohol, and sleeping poor for example).
  - forgotmypw17 6y ago
    I'm a creative person by nature, blessed with being allowed to figure out how things work by taking them apart when I was a child. I didn't hear "No" very often. Eventually, I found myself working on software maintenance at a bank, a job I become attached to because I thought I wasn't worth much without a degree. I worked there for 5 years. In corporate, my three role models have been Wally, Costanza, and Gibbons, so I can't say I strained myself too much. I probably spent more time entertaining myself online than proper "working". I was comfortable, and for a while I thought I'd beat the system. I was certainly better off than many who struggle daily. I worked on CMBS, from the flush days pre-2007, through the crisis, and into times of slow attrition and incremental cost-cutting. Eventually, I was laid off. I scrambled to find another job, was fired after a month or two for regular and unrepentant tardiness, and then got another one and stayed there for about 3/4 of a year until being laid off. I rode out six months on unemployment, also eating through my savings. I realized that with five years at the bank on my resume, it will be much easier to find another job, so I did that. I went on a spree of under-a-year stints at different companies, enjoying the first month honeymoon, integration and learning phase, leaving when I became bored. At this point, I could find a new job before leaving the old one, and my work was good enough that there were no hard feelings. Regardless of how long I worked somewhere, I contributed and was a net positive. After getting one small raise at the bank over five years, I doubled my salary in three. I was so happy to tell my family that I broke the six figures mark, and they were proud of me. It sounds good on paper, but here is the problem. Of all the different places I worked "professionally" in 20 years, there is maybe one or two projects that are still in use. Most of what I'd worked on is gone forever, there's probably not a copy left anywhere. Of the systems that are still in use, they're used by a handful of people, and will never see the "light of day" outside of their cellar. Of all the systems I've worked on, I can only think of one which actually contributed something positive to the world. Most of them were basically negative karma for me. I played a small part in selling unsound financial instruments, which ruined many people, and left many without a house to live in. I helped integrate advertising into webpages, which helped invade people's privacy and reduce the quality of their Web experience. I worked on countless advertising campaigns, which amounted to helping convince my fellow humans to spend their precious resources on things which would probably harm them, like sugar delivery products and oil drilling. But the worst of it was that my time was largely out of my control, under the control of someone else. Even if I did absolutely no work at the office and spent all my time browsing [redacted], I was still obligated to get up at a certain time, show up and spend the better portion of a day there, dress a certain way, etc. Eventually, I realized that this was unsustainable, so I started unsubscribing from those things one by one. One of the first things I unsubscribed from was paying monthly rent. This allowed me to unsubscribe from having to work full-time. I think unsubscribed from many other things, one at a time. I learned that if you make it a priority, and only change one small thing at a time, there is little to fear and much to gain. Not only that, but my life became infinitely richer and more interesting. One of the most incredible changes I've experienced is that I no longer get that feeling of, "wow, that was 3 years ago? feels just like yesterday... time flies". In fact, I have the opposite experience often, when I think, "wow, it feels like that was 3 years ago, but it's only been a couple of weeks". I attribute this to the amount of new and unique experiences I have every day, which used to be close to zero, and is now several per day. I might come back and write more, but I have to go for now. Thank you for asking your question, and I hope this helps. One more thing: If you consider the quantum nature of our Universe, and the power of observation and intention, you will begin to see just how powerful your intention is, especially when you intend well, and work to improve your karma every day. There's a lot more to our Universe than today's science admits, it's tuned for love and enjoyment, savoring, and if you focus your attention, incredible, magical things will begin to manifest. I say this as a clear-minded computer programmer and systems maintainer who's spent most of my life figuring out how systems work and experimenting with them.

rajinikantham 6y ago

Do you have children? If yes, how on earth is this doable?

mattbee 6y ago
This reply works for a lot of self-improvement advice I read on HN.
forgotmypw17 6y ago
No, of course this would be somewhat different with children. However, this is how I would also raise a child, letting them sleep as much and whenever they want. When I was a child myself, my parents were in disagreement. My dad's opinion that I should be "broken in" so that I am better able to integrate into society. My mom thought more along the lines of what I describe. Seeing that my dad had a societal job while my mom raised me, she largely won out. I think I have her defense and sheltering of me to thank for being blessed with rarely having problems in this department.
- lqet 6y ago
  > However, this is how I would also raise a child, letting them sleep as much and whenever they want. With small kids, the problem is usually not you trying to force a schedule on the kid, but the kid forcing a schedule on you.
  - forgotmypw17 6y ago
    Yes, of course, their schedule takes priority. We can't always sleep as much as we want to, even without kids. But I've certainly made it a high priority.
hndamien 6y ago
Let them sleep when they are tired and wake when they want.
- treeman79 6y ago

dorkwood 6y ago

This is similar to my "drink when you're thirsty" method for remaining hydrated. There's a whole industry built on the premise that we're unable to regulate our own water intake without the help of apps and special water bottles. I've not found that to be the case myself.

vestrigi 6y ago
I guess I use the same method. For a year or so, I forced myself to drink an additional liter of water per day and I didn’t feel any difference from it, except that I had to go to the toilet all the time. The only problem that arises now is that I tend to forget that I’m a bit thirsty because of the ubiquitous distractions in our lives.
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  hyper-optimized distractions are one of our new challenges we face today as attentional beings. hyper-mindfulness and hyper-awareness is one of the best tools I've found to overcome them.
  - eru 6y ago
    Though compare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperfocus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperfocus
    - forgotmypw17 6y ago
      Yeah... I think it's laughable, preposterous to call focus and flow a "disorder." Whoever wants to call me being able to focus on a task at hand a disorder can stuff it up their butt.
      - jrumbut 6y ago
        The first component of any disorder is that it's causing a problem. If you like it and it's not harming others then it's not a disorder regardless of what condition it may resemble.

asdf333 6y ago

you do not sound like you have kids. if you do, how do you possibly achieve this with kids.

forgotmypw17 6y ago
I think with kids it's not possible, have to make some sacrifices. I think it's important to have multiple full-time caretakers.

drclau 6y ago

How do you handle noise? Do you live in a house or apartment building?

forgotmypw17 6y ago
My living arrangements vary. If there is noise, I wake up and then go back to sleep. If it keeps repeating, I gradually get used to it and it doesn't wake me anymore. I surely sometimes have to get up when I don't want to, it just happens less often than it used to, every couple days or weeks rather than every morning.
- drclau 6y ago
  Thanks for answering. One more question, how about eating? Do you allow for some time before sleeping, as a rule?
  - forgotmypw17 6y ago
    I try to not eat for an hour or two before bed, but it doesn't often work out that way. In many places, I have food available to me around the clock in nearly unlimited quantities, which I also think is not natural and potentially harmful, but them's the breaks. When I wake up, I usually don't eat for several hours, nor do I have any desire to, as my digestive system is still "booting up". I have heard countless times from various wise beings that drinking a glass of clean water after waking up is very beneficial, so I do that. Sometimes it is yesterday's tea, though. My ideal eating technique is once a day, and then maybe a few light snacks here and there. It's to avoid processed food, meaning anything which I didn't see its original form of and wasn't prepared by someone I know, whether it is grinding up or mixing, and to avoid things with multiple ingredients. However, because I co-exist with others who are not as far along as me, I stray from this quite a bit. I partially alleviate it with occasional water fasting to give myself a chance to clear out the junk. (When I say "natural", it's shorthand for "how our life was for millions of years and what evolution tuned our bodies for".)
stevewodil 6y ago
If you have trouble with noise try getting a white noise machine to drown out the other noises. I have upstairs neighbors and my bedroom is attached to the kitchen here, so there's often quite a bit of noise. The white noise machine has helped a lot for me. I didn't like it at first but got used to it eventually

justsomeuser 6y ago

I always seem to need between 12 and 15 hours sleep, which makes life difficult as I do not fit into the normal 9-5 schedule. I do not understand how people can live off 7 hours of sleep each night. It seems a big advantage though - they have 5 hours more per day.

hutzlibu 6y ago
I met people who slept never more than 5 hours. Each to his own I guess. Some maybe do not need as much but those people probably payed for it later. But if you really need 12-15 hours constantly you might actually have some condition that could be treated.
tubularhells 6y ago
And a higher risk of cancer, dementia, diabetes.

graeme 6y ago

> Whenever I feel tired, I lay down to rest. >Whenever I am sleeping, I allow myself to sleep until I am "fully slept", meaning I can lay there for a while, still physically resting, and not fall asleep. Do you mean in the day you rest, and you sleep at night? Or you mean you might sleep four hours in the day and four at night? Not sure if the first line means rest in the sense of cat sleep, or actual sleep.

forgotmypw17 6y ago
I think every time of day has its beauty and advantage, so I generally don't follow a strict sleeping schedule. Recently, thanks to my living circumstances, I generally stay up working through the night until sunrise, then sleep until about noon or a couple hours past, get up and start my day, do a couple hours of work, take a break for a walk, do some housework and socializing, and then around midnight, plus or minus midnight, start getting into working. Throughout the day, I may feel tired, and that's when I take a break and lay down, sometimes cat-napping, sometimes dog-sleeping, and sometimes taking a legit nap. Other times I may follow a "neo-traditional" schedule of getting up early in the morning and going to bed early-ish at night, maybe with a nap or two thrown in. I may go to bed at dusk and then get up for a couple hours in the night, as people used to do commonly before artificial lighting. If I am camping, it depends on the weather. In colder weather, there's a major advantage to sleeping during the day in that the sun keeps you warm. It's easier to stay warm through the night's cold awake and alert than tired and asleep. If the weather is nice around the clock and there's plenty to do, I may only sleep a couple hours a night, the excitement of new experiences carrying me. Rainy or gray weather typically means sleeping more.

chordalkeyboard 6y ago

> Of course, I have several other practices to thank for this, in addition to the sleep. I would like to hear these other practices as well. I think your sleep practices are sound and derived from a solid theoretical basis.

forgotmypw17 6y ago
In short: meditation, clean water, much tea, unprocessed natural food, regular natural exercise, not sitting in the same position too long, mindful intention, devoted study and marvel of universe.

throwawayamzn1 6y ago

What are your other practices, I love this pre-industrial modality

forgotmypw17 6y ago
I've written a few comments in this tree, please let me know if you'd like to know anything else I haven't mentioned.

zascrash 6y ago

I used to think that our body know better. But I realise it doesn't do what is better but rather what it is used to do. I felt I had to eat sweets frequently, drink coca-coca everyday and 3 meals a day etc. My body felt terrible when I didn't. I stopped listed to what my body wanted and consciously stop those things. First week it was really painful. Second week I got used to. Third week I completely changed. Now I have to force myself do eat sweets, drink soda or having so many meals a day. I still listen my body about drink water and not sure if I should really listen it when it comes to sleep.

forgotmypw17 6y ago
Our body evolved for an environment without those things that you listed. I think you were right to consciously remove those things from its access. Sleep was always an essential part of the equation, however. Try to imagine how you lived 10K years ago.
- Ma8ee 6y ago
  Yes, sleep was always essential, but we didn’t have artificial lights and didn’t spend most of our days sitting on our asses. Both are things that probably disturb our natural sleep clues.
  - forgotmypw17 6y ago
    Sure... But I'm not giving those up for now. Not sleeping enough for optimal function, I'm not as attached to.
    - Ma8ee 6y ago
      I didn’t suggest that you shouldn’t sleep enough, just that our feelings about how much we need to sleep might not be reliable, in either direction. Maybe we would benefit from sleeping even more than we do because we rarely are physically exhausted at the end of the day.

rapind 6y ago

I did something very similar for a few years before I had kids. It was great! (So is being a father of course) unfortunately I can’t find a way to make it work as a Dad, as everything is so scheduled now. Hopefully when they’re older I can get back into it. It definitely worked well for me too.

forgotmypw17 6y ago
Thank you for encouragement.

mathattack 6y ago

Was it hard to get your life to shift around your sleep patterns? (If you sleep in and skip a bunch of meetings without notice or miss your kids soccer game) Conceptually you are on to something. Pushing exhaustion isn’t smart.

forgotmypw17 6y ago
It was challenging, but at some point I realized that if I didn't prioritize my health and sustainability of my existence, no one else would do it for me. All those meetings and deadlines and business software would mean nothing.

licebmi__at__ 6y ago

It seems like yo do enjoy your lifestyle, but man, sleeping more than 8 hours, even when sick, seems impossible for me. I do have some kind of FOMO, not really about being hyper productive but to be conscious, I could consider a perfectly well spent day even if I just lazed in bed, but i would need to be able to even think about stuff, watch the ceiling or just feel the sheets on my hands. With how little time I have on this planet and all the possible experiences, I would definitely do without sleeping if I could.

forgotmypw17 6y ago
What if you could be twice as efficient, aware, productive in your waking hours, but it "cost" you another 2 hours of sleep? Would you do it then?
- licebmi__at__ 6y ago
  I don't think I could buy that. It's not about efficiency or productiveness, it's about being. At this level, I don't even care about accomplishing stuff, just existing is fine. It's more like a fear of the darkness and the lack of consciousness when I'm asleep, that's why I framed it as a FOMO.

Reflecticon 6y ago

Love it! You are light-years ahead of me. I recently came up with analogy of pet sleep, like you said, cats and dogs just sleep here and there if the feel like it. I tried to implement that on my weekends but wasn't very successful so far. How do you keep your sleep rhythms while you're working?

forgotmypw17 6y ago
I work whenever not sleeping or otherwise occupied. I've set a goal for myself of one commit daily, and I usually overshoot.